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Sather must decide: Is dealing Girardi best for Rangers?

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01-16-2014, 10:15 AM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
And if we make the deals and don't win a cup in two years?
Then we'll be no worse off than we are now. No one is guaranteeing success with any path we take. There are no guarantees. But the team as currently constructed isn't built to win a cup, and we don't have the assets in the organization to make this team into a cup contender. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? Because if you agree, then how to YOU propose that we change that? Are we back to your "everyone just player better" plan?

No matter what path the organization takes, whether it's drafting, trading, signing free agents, or any combination thereof, they have to be smart decisions. We don't have enough elite talent to compete for a cup. Signing elite talent as UFAs hasn't worked out for us. We need to find elite talent either through the draft or through smart trades. And when I say trades, I mean the Gomez for McD type rather than the Dubi and Artie for Nash type. Of course, the first type requires a modicum of patience.

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01-16-2014, 10:27 AM
  #902
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And if we make the deals and don't win a cup in two years?
That's not at all my point. And I never suggested as such.

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01-16-2014, 10:33 AM
  #903
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And if we make the deals and don't win a cup in two years?
Long term vision goes beyond two years

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01-16-2014, 10:46 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
I will keep dreaming since it is all I have left with this team.

Conspiracy theory? You just said yourself they will continue to build this team on a year to year basis.
You said there is an elephant in the room. That expression usually means that there is something large and yet unacknowledged present. But there is no elephant in the room. There is no forest for the trees. There is no management conspiracy to avoid winning the Stanley Cup. There is something that the team is doing that is pretty darn obvious if you step back. They're trying to contend every year.

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01-16-2014, 10:49 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
It might be but for how long?

See, that's the difference here. Some of us are willing to take the plunge for a season or two if it means getting out of this endless loop of mediocrity. It's clear you and Sather are kindred spirits.
In answer to your question, who knows. It took the Pens years to get out of their doldrums and they only did so when they picked up 3 top two picks in like four years.

You don't take that plunge with this FO, with these players and with this coach. It boggles the mind that you think they might, actually.

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01-16-2014, 10:51 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Having a long-term vision means:

- Looking at this team as it's currently constructed and asking a hard questions and answering them honestly (without puffery, no sound bites, no propaganda). Questions such as,
  • "How does this team stack up against the top teams in the league?"
  • "As currently constructed will we be able to truly compete for a Cup in the next two years?"
  • "Are we really that much better with Dan Girardi and Ryan Callahan than we would be without him?"
  • "What is the real upside of players such as Dan Girardi and Ryan Callahan?"
  • "If you choose to re-sign these two players, are you paying them for what they've done or what they will give you moving forward?"
  • "If you choose to re-sign these two players, are you really getting value from those cap hits?"
Unfortunately, to truly answer those questions you need to look beyond the season right in front of you. And this front office has shown no ability, desire or willingness to do that.

Is there a guarantee that any return for Girardi would develop into a player like Girardi? Of course not. But I'm not sure that's the goal. Instead, the goal is to add players who will be adding value to this team for the next 5+ years as they enter their prime. And you do that by stockpile picks and prospects to give yourself a better chance to find the next crop of core players or can be traded to add missing pieces at the NHL level. Build a team that can be viewed as a true contender not this nonsense, revolving door of UFAs that ultimately leads to a middle of the road team that might be able to steal a round on the play offer. BUT, IN ORDER TO DO THAT, THEY MUST..

- Put in the hard work and find talent, dammit. Find the players you try to acquire; players you target in the draft, players you think are hidden gems in other organizations players you sign as Free Agents.

- Creating a team philosophy and identity and then making moves around that ethos.

You can talk about how many prospects have flamed out. How much success have you seen in spending big money on UFAs?
Great points.

On the surface, it sure seems like this team wants to move towards offensive creativity. "Watchable hockey" as Sather put it. Do Girardi and Callahan fit that mold? Not as far as Im concerned.

But who the hell knows. Sather's thoughts on playing style changes with the direction of the wind.

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01-16-2014, 10:52 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
You said there is an elephant in the room. That expression usually means that there is something large and yet unacknowledged present. But there is no elephant in the room. There is no forest for the trees. There is no management conspiracy to avoid winning the Stanley Cup. There is something that the team is doing that is pretty darn obvious if you step back. They're trying to contend every year.
5 playoff series wins in 14 years. 1 trip to the Conference final. They're doing a piss poor job. Maybe its time to change direction.

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01-16-2014, 10:53 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Are we any worse off than we are now? I sincerely doubt it.
I don't. Our defense will be worse.

Unless we replace Girardi with a player of similar defensive competence. Which probably means grabbing another UFA.

So probably we should just stick with the guy we know and appreciate already.

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01-16-2014, 10:56 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
5 playoff series wins in 14 years. 1 trip to the Conference final. They're doing a piss poor job. Maybe its time to change direction.
You do that by trading your most steady defender how, again?

Oh, yeah. Kids.

And around and around we go.

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01-16-2014, 10:56 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
I don't. Our defense will be worse.

Unless we replace Girardi with a player of similar defensive competence. Which probably means grabbing another UFA.

So probably we should just stick with the guy we know and appreciate already.
Bonus is we also get to massively overpay Girardi!

Theres several questions that need to be asked here. SBOB captured about all of them. "How do we replace this guy" is certainly one of them, but when you let that be the end-all, be-all, it leads to the near-sighted **** we've seen for years.

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01-16-2014, 11:02 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
In answer to your question, who knows. It took the Pens years to get out of their doldrums and they only did so when they picked up 3 top two picks in like four years.

You don't take that plunge with this FO, with these players and with this coach. It boggles the mind that you think they might, actually.
I don't think they might. I never did. Even when it looked like there might have been a chance I fully expected them to **** it up.

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01-16-2014, 11:03 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
You do that by trading your most steady defender how, again?

Oh, yeah. Kids.

And around and around we go.
We've been going around. It's time for something different starting with management.

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01-16-2014, 11:04 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
I can't take you seriously if you believe with any sincerity that a.) Glen Sather has some kind of long-term plan of success and b.) that the team is emerging from growing pains (lol) and we'll be sing their praises soon because surely they will be Cup contenders.

I won't be singing the praises of this roster anytime soon.

You seem to have trouble accepting the idea that maybe, just maybe Sather and co. just aren't as smart as you think they might be. Also the opinion we harbor is not some wild fanatical idea that over-zealous fans concocted to bring their team to the promised land. It is a recipe for success that has been used post lock-out by winning teams.

You're right abourt one thing. Management doesn't want to go that road to win and the goal they are persuing is short-sighted as well as self-destructive. That is not on lost on many people here at all. In fact it is the elephant in the room. I'm not sure how you could mistake this goal as a long-term vision for the franchise.
I just don't understand how people are comfortable with the thought of doing everything possible to compete over the next 2-3 years and possibly mortgaging the future for it, especially when it is clear as day that this team just isn't talented enough to win the Cup is everything remains status quo (i.e. re-signing Girardi and Callahan on big contracts). That shortsightedness has doomed us to be the least successful Original Six team in the NHL. 4 Cups in 88 years. 1 Cup in 74 years. That is pathetic.

Do we really want Sather to be making these type of decisions when he doesn't give a **** about the long term viability of this team. He is 70, going on 71. All jokes that he'll be GM to his grave aside, Sather realistically has 5 years max left before he retires. His entire position has always been built around legacy. His decisions are those made to try and cement his legacy in hockey. Of course his time in Edmonton has already done that, but that legacy was entirely built on Wayne Gretzky, the greatest player to ever lace skates. There is no no other sport where there is such an enormous gap between the greatest player of all time and the one or two players are considered to be next best. Sather famously chirped that with NY's deep pockets and FA attractiveness he would be able to win a Cup here with ease. How much do you think it haunts an egomaniac like Sather that he has failed to fulfill such a prophecy and has done so miserably. How much do you think he is going to try and stop his name from being synonymous with mediocrity and failure in NY. He is getting desperate as time is running out. 14 years with one Eastern Conference final to show for it, one in which his team was embarrassed by his cross river rival.

That is why as smart as it would be to trade Girardi and Callahan for young assets and take the hit for the next couple years, Sather won't do it. I think we all realize that. To praise it like Chuck is imbecilic. Sather doesn't care whether the next GM will be left with bloated contracts with depreciating assets because it is not in HIS best interests to do so. Let us be real, how Sather has managed this team has never been in the best interests of the organization, but rather what he thought was the in the best interest of HIS legacy. Why would Sather take the hit now, ensure that the last years of his management will be anchored by even more mediocrity and loss, such that it will set up the next GM to benefit.

That is why Sather will either re-sign Girardi and Callahan or try to win with them this year at the risk of losing them to FA. Because who gives a **** about the future when (a) you are not much longer for your job; (b) you have Grade-A job security from your scrotum-faced boss; (c) you are absolutely desperate to win something; and (d) there is no way I'm sacrificing a chance at my legacy so that some other guy can benefit from it in the long-run.

There is no long-term plan here. It is just Sather's short-term plan because his ego is writing checks his mind and body can't cash. For someone like Chuck to say he has a long-term view is stupid. To praise him? Go home, you're drunk.


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01-16-2014, 11:13 AM
  #914
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Good post, Matt Carle Place. Sather is "win now" mode, despite the fact this team isn't really in a good position to contend, and he will have no problem loading this team up with bad contracts and kicking the can down the road to the next GM. I am also starting to get concerned that he will decline using the amnesty buyout on Richards. Why should he care about the long-term ramifications of that contract, he'll be retired when recapture kicks in.

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01-16-2014, 11:19 AM
  #915
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The Rangers will always be in "win now" or at the latest "win shortly" mode.

I don't agree with it but it is a fact of life.

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01-16-2014, 11:28 AM
  #916
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
The Rangers will always be in "win now" or at the latest "win shortly" mode.

I don't agree with it but it is a fact of life.
Oh of course. This team has been in "win now" mode for nearly 9 decades. 4 Cups to show for it, only one of those in close to 3 quarters of a century. I don't necessarily think we have to strip the team bare and tank like Buffalo, but we should start stockpiling picks and identifying young, solid players that are made available and can be obtained for a reasonable price. No more trading picks like candy for overage and overpriced has beens. People **** on Clark and Gorton but don't mention that Sather loves to trade picks for veteran duds. Teams like Chicago and LA stockpile picks even when their team is contending such that they always have a ton of prospects waiting in the wings, even if a majority of them don't pan out.

Also an organizational philosophy wouldn't hurt.

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01-16-2014, 11:31 AM
  #917
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Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
You just keep dreaming then. There are several players signed to long-term contracts that instruct you as to the intention of the FO.

They will continue to build this team to compete on a yearly basis. That's all.

So much for your conspiracy-theory tainted elephant.
which is really problem in and unto itself.

The long term contracts they have in place are solid for McDonagh and Lundqvist.

Nash is not the kind of player/person you rely on to lead a team to wins. He's a very very good complimentary player. Meaning that he's not making his teammates better. He benefits off his teammates.

Richards is a fading player that will have 6 years remaining on his contract after this season. 34 to start the 14-15 season.

Nash and Richards are not player you should be hitching your wagon to if you are looking for any real success.

if the intention is to maintain a team that will fail to really compete year in and year out, then the current FO has done an amazing job.

If the intention is to win a Stanley Cup or two, then this FO has failed and will continue to fail for the extended future.

13 years in and we are a mediocre team in the worst division in the sport.

if the season eneded today, we would sneak into the final playoff spot and get bounced by a far superior team in either Boston or Pitt.

That's not competing.

That's pathetic.

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01-16-2014, 11:33 AM
  #918
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Originally Posted by CharlieCharleschuk View Post
I don't. Our defense will be worse.

Unless we replace Girardi with a player of similar defensive competence. Which probably means grabbing another UFA.

So probably we should just stick with the guy we know and appreciate already.
yeah, lets stick with the guys that have made us no better than mediocre first round fodder.

Yeah, round and round we go...kids

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01-16-2014, 11:36 AM
  #919
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The Rangers have some really good pieces to build around. McDonagh is a great piece to build around on D. Lundqvist. Kreider,Stepan and Nash. They need to add to those pieces whether its in the draft or in trades. Free agency is where most of the mistakes are made. That includes your own players. If they can avoid giving Girardi and Callahan big bucks and amnesty Richards,they won't have any long term contracts on the books except for Lundqvist(7),McDonagh(5) and Nash(4). $21M for those 3 in combined cap hits.

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01-16-2014, 12:06 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Bonus is we also get to massively overpay Girardi!

Theres several questions that need to be asked here. SBOB captured about all of them. "How do we replace this guy" is certainly one of them, but when you let that be the end-all, be-all, it leads to the near-sighted **** we've seen for years.
agreed. trading girardi is what this organization should do...same with cally. unless you can get them both for deals that they are actually worth.

5x5 for girardi & callahan each.

aint gonna happwn, but i could live with those 2 deals.

more? particularly term? no thanks.

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01-16-2014, 12:08 PM
  #921
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You do that by trading your most steady defender how, again?

Oh, yeah. Kids.

And around and around we go.
Or, you know, upside....

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01-16-2014, 12:38 PM
  #922
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The Rangers aren't in "win-now" mode in the sense that we've always known it as Ranger fans.

"Win-now" for us meant trading away the few promising prospects or top picks we had for 30+ year old veterans for a season or half a season of "glory"; either to squeeze into the playoffs or to squeeze another round or two before getting eliminated. For the most part mgmt has kept our drafted players and even turned some of our UFA signings into younger players.

Anyway "The Plan" (which seems to be a popular topic these days) seems pretty evident to me. It has since the lockout. Try to ice a playoff team every season. Mostly keep the young players and draft picks. Try and pluck talent from the middle/bottom of the 1st round onward, because you likely aren't getting a top 5 pick.

And short of trading yourself out of the playoffs by moving Ludnqvist and most of the other quality players on the team, for the chance to string together some top picks that pan out, its the only plan. And lets be real here, no GM is going to trade itself out of a playoff spot. Ever.

Personally I have less issues with "the plan" than I do with those implementing it. I have little confidence in Sather and co. running the long game. The good teams like the ducks draft well and then lock up the players they believe should (Getzlaf, Perry etc) and get compensated for the ones they believe they shouldn't (Clowe, Penner, Ryan etc). The bad ones like the Devils draft poorly and let the few legit players walk for nothing because "they don't ever rebuild".

Which brings us to Callahan and Girardi. We are just going to wait and see what happens. As I have said before there is zero precedent here. This is first group of home-grown UFAs we've seen since the cap arrived. Regardless of all this "ZOMG THEY ARNT EVEN TRYIN TO SIGN OR TRADE THEM WHY U B SO LAZY GLEN!!1" I think the Rangers have an idea they want to do.

I just wont hold my breathe waiting to see if they are right.

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01-16-2014, 12:45 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Matt Carle Place View Post
To praise it like Chuck is imbecilic.
No praise is given. No praise was given.

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Originally Posted by Matt Carle Place View Post
For someone like Chuck to say he has a long-term view is stupid.
You just said he has one and it's to serve his own personal ego. So he has one. Not value judging here. He has one.

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To praise him? Go home, you're drunk.
Nice, Matt. Stay classy.

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01-16-2014, 12:45 PM
  #924
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Or, you know, upside....
In prospects, there's a lot more downside out there than upside and I'm generally a positive guy.

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01-16-2014, 12:48 PM
  #925
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In prospects, there's a lot more downside
So they should just trade away their draft picks and prospects?

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