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Old
01-21-2014, 08:11 AM
  #51
Striiker
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Vinny, like Briere, seems to need to remain a center. Problem is B. Schenn seems to as well and for his development, it makes sense to keep him there. Moving your best center to wing (even though he played RW in juniors) to accommodate a lesser center does not make sense either. Couturier is not moving from center, so I really have no idea where Vinny goes.
He should go right out the door... but Homer won't do that.

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01-21-2014, 08:39 AM
  #52
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Vinny was a great player about 6 years ago. Back then he could move , he was big and he could handle the puck like a boss. But now he is by far the slowest forward we have and his moves don't work anymore.

Vinny really needs to change the way he plays and needs to stop being a east west player and start gonig north south and crashing the net. He could make a living in front of the net if he was willing to do so but so far he has shown no interest in changing his game.

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01-21-2014, 09:28 AM
  #53
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Vinny was a great player about 6 years ago. Back then he could move , he was big and he could handle the puck like a boss. But now he is by far the slowest forward we have and his moves don't work anymore.
I dunno, Scott Hartnell is pretty slow.

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01-21-2014, 09:47 AM
  #54
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I dunno, Scott Hartnell is pretty slow.
Hartnell's got a pretty good gear but it really only shows in a straight line because he's not a dynamic skater.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 01-21-2014 at 09:57 AM.
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01-21-2014, 09:56 AM
  #55
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Honestly, I think we have see a struggling Vinny until after the olympics.

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01-21-2014, 10:24 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Hartnell's got a pretty good gear but it really only shows in a straight line because he's not a dynamic skater.
Yeh, in a straight line he is pretty fast.

Like Simmonds, the guy is absolutely rapid (like Voracek, Rinaldo, Read and Coburn are the only guys on the team who can skate with him... Raffl as well most likely, but not sure if he is as fast as he looks, as he seems a very good skater) but does not look as fast as he has a poor technique.

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01-21-2014, 10:37 AM
  #57
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A lot of people are quick to give up on him

He's a proven player who looked good earlier this year.

I'd sooner deal Downie/Harts for other pieces.

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01-21-2014, 10:38 AM
  #58
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Hartnell gets so much hate its crazy. His skating is fine this year, he got himself into great shape and it shows.

Can we focus on vinny please? Dude looks horrible out there.

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01-21-2014, 10:38 AM
  #59
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I really like Vinny and was excited when the Flyers signed him. So, here's the excuses I'll make for him explaining why he's not playing well.

1. He's coming off a back injury and probably not 100%.

2. He is not playing his natural position (center) and is being bounced around line to line, thus no chemistry.

3. He's got a great shot but seems to pass up shooting opportunities too much.

4. With that great shot of his he can be very effective on the power play, but because the first unit is doing well, Vinny's stuck on the second unit with inferior power play players.

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01-21-2014, 10:46 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Hartnell gets so much hate its crazy. His skating is fine this year, he got himself into great shape and it shows.

Can we focus on vinny please? Dude looks horrible out there.
Vinny isn't as bad as he's looked lately. He just simply doesn't have a role/spot with this team when everyone is healthy. Everyone expected him to be the number two centerman, which he was until he got hurt. Since then, Schenn grabbed that spot and has played too well to justify giving it back to Vinny. If only Vinny could play the wing, he would be a good option next to Giroux and Voracek. Raffl's play is not sustainable, and isn't even that great to begin with.

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01-21-2014, 11:04 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Hartnell gets so much hate its crazy. His skating is fine this year, he got himself into great shape and it shows.

Can we focus on vinny please? Dude looks horrible out there.
Half the time Hartnell touches the puck, something of negative value happens. That's why he gets so much hate. I don't care how good of shape he is in.

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01-21-2014, 11:07 AM
  #62
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I'd love for

Vora-Roo-Vinny ( I know it's been tried but it makes the most sense or move Roo to RW and flip Vora to LW and Vinny in the middle )

to become a line, Raffl to 4th, Downie back on 3rd.

I know Vinny prefers RW and Vora shoots left, so this makes the most sense. If only he can be himself out there.

He hasn't been great/good since his injury, I hope he turns it around, of not, I could see us shipping him out, Maybe Edmonton will take him or Toronto, who NEED a C.

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01-21-2014, 11:07 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Vinny isn't as bad as he's looked lately. He just simply doesn't have a role/spot with this team when everyone is healthy. Everyone expected him to be the number two centerman, which he was until he got hurt. Since then, Schenn grabbed that spot and has played too well to justify giving it back to Vinny. If only Vinny could play the wing, he would be a good option next to Giroux and Voracek. Raffl's play is not sustainable, and isn't even that great to begin with.
I do think he has been as bad as he looks!

But I agree with the rest of it really... he was looking just what we expected him to be before injury, a ~60 point, 2nd line centre who was a PP guy with Vet leadership.

As for Raffl... I hope he stays and plays 3LW next year...

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
Laughton-Hall-whoever (in any config)

would be potentially great... so long as the holes can be all made into nice square ones for the pegs! (which may not be possible.)

The biggest conundrum is Lecav and Schenn... they both look far better at centre... but I think Schenn is more likely to go to wing.

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01-21-2014, 11:10 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I do think he has been as bad as he looks!

But I agree with the rest of it really... he was looking just what we expected him to be before injury, a ~60 point, 2nd line centre who was a PP guy with Vet leadership.

As for Raffl... I hope he stays and plays 3LW next year...

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
Laughton-Hall-whoever (in any config)

would be potentially great... so long as the holes can be all made into nice square ones for the pegs! (which may not be possible.)

The biggest conundrum is Lecav and Schenn... they both look far better at centre... but I think Schenn is more likely to go to wing.
iirc he did that on the Phantoms with Coots as his Centre.... no?

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01-21-2014, 11:15 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
iirc he did that on the Phantoms with Coots as his Centre.... no?
Yeh for ~20-25 of the games I believe... they were insanely good together as well... they were on ice between them for over 50% of Phantoms goals I believe when they left. (in a pretty good AHL as well.)

Couturier just used his strength and passing ability to hold the puck until Schenn was free, and Schenn just buried them... ofc that is the AHL. (albeit one with a lot of NHLers in it.)

They also PKed together as well at times... I think they both assisted on an others shorty. I am still surprised Schenn has not been given PK time in the NHL, he is far better defensively than most realise.

When the 2nd falls off I would really like Schenn to be given an elongated run at wing with Giroux. He would bring much needed finishing and a net presence... but has never really been given more than a few games with G before they give up and move him... he has played with pretty much everyone in the Flyers lineup the last two years.

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01-21-2014, 11:21 AM
  #66
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People keep mentioning Lecavalier as being injured or something, but it seems like grasping at straws to me. There's been no actual indication or hint from the player himself or the organization that he's hampered in any way and on top of that the organization has no real reason to rush him back from injury only to shuffle him around the lineup because he's ineffective and doesn't fit anywhere.

Even when Lecavalier is at his best he's only a 60 P guy (including PP time) who can't play a two-way game and seemingly can't seem to win face-offs anymore. That's the best we can expect from him unless you want to get into some argument about intangibles. That's not a player I want if it's the absolute best he can bring, especially when they're in their mid 30's, signed for five years, and have a history of injuries in recent seasons.

He didn't get bought out by Tampa just because he had a high cap hit. With his history with the franchise and with his production in the past they definitely would have kept him if he offered anything more then 60 points in any given season. The way he is now sounds exactly like Tampa fans described him as.

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01-21-2014, 11:29 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
People keep mentioning Lecavalier as being injured or something, but it seems like grasping at straws to me. There's been no actual indication or hint from the player himself or the organization that he's hampered in any way and on top of that the organization has no real reason to rush him back from injury only to shuffle him around the lineup because he's ineffective and doesn't fit anywhere.

Even when Lecavalier is at his best he's only a 60 P guy (including PP time) who can't play a two-way game and seemingly can't seem to win face-offs anymore. That's the best we can expect from him unless you want to get into some argument about intangibles. That's not a player I want if it's the absolute best he can bring, especially when they're in their mid 30's, signed for five years, and have a history of injuries in recent seasons.

He didn't get bought out by Tampa just because he had a high cap hit. With his history with the franchise and with his production in the past they definitely would have kept him if he offered anything more then 60 points in any given season. The way he is now sounds exactly like Tampa fans described him as.
"Only" 60 points? I'll gladly take 60 points.

As for playing through pain/injury, there's no doubting that many players play through injury. I don't think it's far fetched to say Vinny's still not fully healthy.

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01-21-2014, 11:35 AM
  #68
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Yeh, 60 points is ~50-60th best in the NHL over a full season.

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01-21-2014, 11:40 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
People keep mentioning Lecavalier as being injured or something, but it seems like grasping at straws to me. There's been no actual indication or hint from the player himself or the organization that he's hampered in any way and on top of that the organization has no real reason to rush him back from injury only to shuffle him around the lineup because he's ineffective and doesn't fit anywhere.

Even when Lecavalier is at his best he's only a 60 P guy (including PP time) who can't play a two-way game and seemingly can't seem to win face-offs anymore. That's the best we can expect from him unless you want to get into some argument about intangibles. That's not a player I want if it's the absolute best he can bring, especially when they're in their mid 30's, signed for five years, and have a history of injuries in recent seasons.

He didn't get bought out by Tampa just because he had a high cap hit.
He was bought out due to his huge cap hit and because the contract went on till he was 40.

And these are his faceoff percentages since the injury. So he obviously still winning his fair share of face offs, even with his back issues.

50
100
40
100
33.3
33.3
50
87.5

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...32014&view=log

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01-21-2014, 12:05 PM
  #70
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
"Only" 60 points? I'll gladly take 60 points.

As for playing through pain/injury, there's no doubting that many players play through injury. I don't think it's far fetched to say Vinny's still not fully healthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Yeh, 60 points is ~50-60th best in the NHL over a full season.
For a guy that can't be a two-way presence, can't PK, and apparently can't win face-offs and has had trouble staying healthy in his mid 30's 60 points just doesn't cut it. That's essentially Danny Briere in his later years with us but moderately better point production and we haven't seen Lecavalier in the playoffs yet. Maybe this year or even next year they can make it work somewhat, but that contract isn't good unless he improves.

Lecavalier also just logistically doesn't fit into this roster because of the center issue. It's already creating problems and it's not like any of our centers are leaving any time soon most likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
He was bought out due to his huge cap hit and because the contract went on till he was 40.

And these are his faceoff percentages since the injury. So he obviously still winning his fair share of face offs, even with his back issues.

50
100
40
100
33.3
33.3
50
87.5

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...32014&view=log
His last four seasons (including this one) in face-off percentage:

50.9
47.8
54.4
46.4

He's probably a tiny bit better then he's doing so far, but that's not a far cry from how he's done the last few seasons. He's not a good face-off player, there's no denying that. Reminds me of people getting the idea that Talbot could take face-offs for some reason.

The best face-off guys in the league can usually muster percentages in the upper 50's to low 60's while taking a high number of draws in a season. Lecavalier has consistently been poor to mediocre/average in the dot the last four seasons if we're including this one.

Like I was trying to allude to earlier, he was still a 60 P guy for Tampa too. They did buy him out because his cap hit was a lot higher, but it's also because he provides nothing outside of scoring as long as he can overcome his health issues.

He was signed in Tampa until he was 40, he's signed here until he's like 38 so in that respect there's not much difference here.

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01-21-2014, 12:11 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I do think he has been as bad as he looks!

But I agree with the rest of it really... he was looking just what we expected him to be before injury, a ~60 point, 2nd line centre who was a PP guy with Vet leadership.

As for Raffl... I hope he stays and plays 3LW next year...

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
Laughton-Hall-whoever (in any config)

would be potentially great... so long as the holes can be all made into nice square ones for the pegs! (which may not be possible.)

The biggest conundrum is Lecav and Schenn... they both look far better at centre... but I think Schenn is more likely to go to wing.
I think it's Schenn that goes to wing. I also wouldn't be opposed to Schenn playing the middle between Giroux and Voracek. People are so scared to take Giroux out of the center spot, but honestly, I think it would better him as a player, especially if he goes to the left side. He does all of his damage on the PP and the rush from primarily the left side anyway. It also frees him up from playing the punishing defensive game that comes with being a center. Not only would it keep him fresher, but you could still use him on faceoffs if you needed to.

I like Raffl on that third line as well. It gives Couturier two strong puck possession wingers in both the neutral zone and the offensive zone. It frees Couturier up from being a primary puck carrier, something he's not great at.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
People keep mentioning Lecavalier as being injured or something, but it seems like grasping at straws to me. There's been no actual indication or hint from the player himself or the organization that he's hampered in any way and on top of that the organization has no real reason to rush him back from injury only to shuffle him around the lineup because he's ineffective and doesn't fit anywhere.

Even when Lecavalier is at his best he's only a 60 P guy (including PP time) who can't play a two-way game and seemingly can't seem to win face-offs anymore. That's the best we can expect from him unless you want to get into some argument about intangibles. That's not a player I want if it's the absolute best he can bring, especially when they're in their mid 30's, signed for five years, and have a history of injuries in recent seasons.

He didn't get bought out by Tampa just because he had a high cap hit. With his history with the franchise and with his production in the past they definitely would have kept him if he offered anything more then 60 points in any given season. The way he is now sounds exactly like Tampa fans described him as.
A 60 point season is either good first line production or elite second line production. If Lecavalier is giving them 60 points from the second line, then he's had a hell of a season.

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01-21-2014, 12:35 PM
  #72
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He has not looked good. To be honest, and I am sure some would agree, I was not sold on him when he signed. It was not clear that we needed another center as much as needing a scoring wing for G. Well, we got a center, who does not seem to be doing well on the wing. What did Holmgren expect? One thing I wouldn't do is dramatically change around lines, or move players such as G to positions that they will not be most comfortable to facilitate Vinny. That could make things worse.

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01-21-2014, 12:53 PM
  #73
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He has not looked good. To be honest, and I am sure some would agree, I was not sold on him when he signed. It was not clear that we needed another center as much as needing a scoring wing for G. Well, we got a center, who does not seem to be doing well on the wing. What did Holmgren expect? One thing I wouldn't do is dramatically change around lines, or move players such as G to positions that they will not be most comfortable to facilitate Vinny. That could make things worse.
That BSchenn would work well as a left wing.

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01-21-2014, 02:10 PM
  #74
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That BSchenn would work well as a left wing.
Too bad that it hasn't worked. Pretty big investment in Vinny at this point.

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01-21-2014, 02:18 PM
  #75
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If Schenn is moving to the wing I wouldn't mind seeing

Read-Couturier-Schenn

That line would be good defensively and also have some offensive abilities

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