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01-21-2014, 10:20 PM
  #101
HabsProspectsExpert
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I could call you ignorant of reality. But I wont. I will simply say that you are ill-informed. Let me help you.

http://www.playerspoll.ca/results/20...etely-banished

Question > Should fighting be completely banished?

Answer > No Almost all players in favour of keeping fighting in the game 98% .

Imagine that. A poll of actual NHL hockey players who do not want to see fighting removed from the sport because they see benefit in it.

Compare that to you, a keyboard pacifist (credit to Beendair Donedat) with a completely IRRELEVANT opinion that does not match reality.


Again, this thread was started out of frustration with a goal being scored against the Habs while Parros was on the ice. We lost 5-3 against the Leafs and Parros was not on the ice for any of the other 4 goals.

The disconnect is that PK Subban's attempted breakout was foiled when the ref's skate hit the puck (If that were Emelin or Parros, he would be criticized for his lack of vision down the ice). Four players on the ice other than Parros failed to clear the puck or stop the goal from scoring.

But it is so convenient for the anti-fighting crowd to single out Parros.

False association? Or does that not fit the agenda?
I will take the time to answer you once again, because I don't want to let in the illusion that what you are claiming is making sense.
This survey isn't about the role, effectiveness and impact of the enforcer (what your claim is about, regarding the opinion of NHL players)
This pool is only about "should fighting be completely banish?".
You are extrapolating false conclusion from that survey; false premise.
You can't just say "A poll of actual NHL hockey players who do not want to see fighting removed from the sport because they see benefit in it." (your sense of benefit is (and I quote) "Having someone sticking up for a teammate is a positive and builds cohesiveness on a team. (...) NHL players understand this.")
This is a false claim. Maybe some players answered yes because they know that fights are entertaining for the fan or they know fights bring attendance=$ or because there always been fight in hockey so it should stay that way (tradition) or ...?
You just don't know..?
This survey as 0 value in your argumentation. Once again your are making a point that isn't one because your logic is fundamentally false.
Please stop.

Btw, on a side note, what the "players" believe about the game isn't the absolute verity and answer to any question that is hockey related. You are jumping to conclusion to quickly. You can't base your argument solely on that. So even if your claim was right, this would be a weak argument.


Last edited by overlords: 01-22-2014 at 06:00 PM.
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Old
01-21-2014, 10:21 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Never said that.

We did not have an enforcer weighing us down and causing us to lose games like the one against the Leafs on Saturday and we still lost to the Senators.

Which do you play more of? Playstation or XBox?
Yes, and what did we see when we got frustrated? A team trying to prove they are tough and getting into a bunch of meaningless fights that resulted in nothing but more losses. The team that went 8-0 against Boston, they didn't fight, and it drove the Bruins nuts, it was all they could think about. We'd get on the PP and score. Against the Sens, we lost our cool multiple times, Therrien also bred that mentality by getting into it with MacLean and we lost focus any time we got down in a game.

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01-21-2014, 10:35 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Yes, and what did we see when we got frustrated? A team trying to prove they are tough and getting into a bunch of meaningless fights that resulted in nothing but more losses. The team that went 8-0 against Boston, they didn't fight, and it drove the Bruins nuts, it was all they could think about. We'd get on the PP and score. Against the Sens, we lost our cool multiple times, Therrien also bred that mentality by getting into it with MacLean and we lost focus any time we got down in a game.
You are kind of making my point.

Since Therrien did not have anyone to answer the goonish play by the Sens on the ice, he was forced to take on the big bad Sens via the mighty interview.

And for his effort, he made himself look like an ignorant tool and continued the story line of showing that the way to beat the Habs is to attack with physicality. In addition to making the Habs the laughingstocks of the NHL.

All of this could have been settled on the ice between players.

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01-22-2014, 03:11 AM
  #104
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If my kid (I don't really have one...hypothetical) went to a school that had several bullies in the school yard...I would definitely want more than just one supervisor/monitor in that school yard to monitor the bullies. Better than no supervisors/monitors.

Better solution: I'd prefer no bullies...but it's not a perfect world.

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01-22-2014, 03:19 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
If my kid (I don't really have one...hypothetical) went to a school that had several bullies in the school yard...I would definitely want more than just one supervisor/monitor in that school yard to monitor the bullies. Better than no supervisors/monitors.

Better solution: I'd prefer no bullies...but it's not a perfect world.
Not sure it's what you're intending, but in your analogy the 'supervisor/monitor' is the referee.

Perhaps you intended "if my kid went to a school with several bullies in the schoolyard....I'd definitely pay one of the bullies to follow my kid around engaging in staged fights with any of the other bullies who threaten my kid"

Might want to think these things through before posting.

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01-22-2014, 07:21 AM
  #106
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A goon never worked in Montreal lately, Laraque? Parros? Staubitz? The Habs wouldn't need a goon if they had bigger powerforward. Actually Moen/White are not bad.

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01-22-2014, 07:22 AM
  #107
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I was playing NHL 14 and decided to dress Parros in a game. Seeing how I had him, I figured I had to fight, so I shot the puck with him after the whistle. A player on the Coyotes ran at him. I took a swing and connected... the Coyotes player took a swing, hit and Parros went down. With one punch.

Even the video game knows how useful he is.

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01-22-2014, 07:44 AM
  #108
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I traded Parros for a late pick, haha.

Anyhow, Parros is a big boy, so why is he so ******* weak on the puck? He looks frightened whenever he is close to having possession, and he isn't even able to life people's sticks or get open or clear the zone. It is bizarre to watch.

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01-22-2014, 08:19 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are kind of making my point.

Since Therrien did not have anyone to answer the goonish play by the Sens on the ice, he was forced to take on the big bad Sens via the mighty interview.

And for his effort, he made himself look like an ignorant tool and continued the story line of showing that the way to beat the Habs is to attack with physicality. In addition to making the Habs the laughingstocks of the NHL.

All of this could have been settled on the ice between players.
Do you not remember when there was a line brawl on the ice? The result of that? We lost that game and every other game.

Trying to win fights and trying to prove we were tough physically was the downfall of us in that series. Just like it has been our demise against Boston in recent years. Montreal wins games when they focus on being a skilled team and attacking with speed. Forget all the nonsense and play hockey. Let the other teams get frustrated that you are not engaging in their neanderthal play.

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01-22-2014, 08:40 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Komarov47 View Post
A goon never worked in Montreal lately, Laraque? Parros? Staubitz? The Habs wouldn't need a goon if they had bigger powerforward. Actually Moen/White are not bad.
I don't love the idea of a goon in Montreal but there's no denying our pro scouts picked two of the worst to go after in Laraque and Parros. Two guys who were both past their prime, didn't really intimidate anyone, and who could barely play 4 minutes a game without being detrimental to the team. Laraque's career ended with us and it looks like Parros' might as well.

I would like to see us go after a "better" enforcer before declaring such a thing can't work here.

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01-22-2014, 08:44 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Never said that.

We did not have an enforcer weighing us down and causing us to lose games like the one against the Leafs on Saturday and we still lost to the Senators.

Which do you play more of? Playstation or XBox?
Are you saying that having Parros on the bench would've prevented Gryba from taking Eller's head off or Cowen from injuring Pacioretty last year ? Enforcers are wastes of space and trying to make up for the intimidation of a whole team or even just a few good hockey players with sandpaper in their game with an enforcer is a retarded solution.

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01-22-2014, 10:23 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The only people who endorse fighting in hockey are traditionalists or kids who got beat up in junior high and feel insecure when they see their sports team lose a fight.
And NHL players. But ah heck, what do they know.

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01-22-2014, 10:26 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
And NHL players. But ah heck, what do they know.
All the great minds in the world once believed that the world was flat.. then they believed that the solar system rotated around the Earth. Should we go back to that ideology?

Just because people believe it to be true because of a long held belief does not mean that there is actual data or results to support it.

If you can legitimately prove that Enforcers decrease or prevent other teams from playing physical or dirty, then go ahead, but you can't do it because there is no empirical data to support that. In fact, even though teams continue to employ enforcers, suspensions seem more and more frequent because players are STILL hitting people from behind, they are still slew footing each other and they are still targeting the head.

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01-22-2014, 10:28 AM
  #114
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I've said this before, I'd be willing to wage top dollar that people who claim fighting and/or goons are unnecessary have never played the game (at a competitive level) before. Speaking as a small-ish player, I played up to the size of my team. When my team was small and soft, I was very aware that I couldn't' get away with certain things. My play suffered. When I played on larger, more intimidating teams, I played larger. It's that simple.

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01-22-2014, 10:29 AM
  #115
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Berkshire at EOTP compared 2013 players with their 2014 replacements in an article today. Armstrong vs Parros is brutal lol.

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01-22-2014, 11:01 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
Are you saying that having Parros on the bench would've prevented Gryba from taking Eller's head off or Cowen from injuring Pacioretty last year ? Enforcers are wastes of space and trying to make up for the intimidation of a whole team or even just a few good hockey players with sandpaper in their game with an enforcer is a retarded solution.
No I am not saying that. You are trying to assume and project that I am saying that. Fail.

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01-22-2014, 11:10 AM
  #117
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Berkshire at EOTP compared 2013 players with their 2014 replacements in an article today. Armstrong vs Parros is brutal lol.
Pointless. Neither were impact players. It's like comparing Darche to D Moore. One might be better but it doesn't matter.

It still goes back to the point I made earlier. On the Kessel goal, all 6 Habs players on the ice at the time committed errors that led to that goal.

The only difference is that only Parros received the honor of having a thread created because of it. It is disingenuous and ignorant by giving the fanboy's favorites a pass and taking it out on Parros.


Last edited by overlords: 01-22-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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01-22-2014, 11:18 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No I am not saying that. You are trying to assume and project that I am saying that. Fail.
Sorry about that. I just realized what was your argument by reading this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Critical thinking is lacking by many.

When Neil runs Gallagher, he must then fight our enforcer. Will that stop Neil? No. But he will have to eat a few fists and sit for 5.

Repeat the process as needed.

Having someone sticking up for a teammate is a positive and builds cohesiveness on a team. Gallagher should not have to fight those battles nor should thuggery against him be allowed to happen without retribution.

NHL players understand this. People who play or have played team sports understand this. Pacifists on a message board do not. Again, irrelevant since you do not play the game.

So we need an enforcer to build team spirit ? There are no other ways to strengthen the cohesiveness of a team than by having a useless plug go out there and try to punch a guy's teeth in ?

That's one of the most ludicrous attempts at explaining the use of a goon that I've seen and you are the one berating us about critical thinking ? How about coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to build team spirit or gain momentum than by putting a guy like Parros on the ice and basically giving the opponent a man advantage.

Also, it's nice to see you implying that people arguing against fighting have never played a team sport (nevermind hockey!). It's sad that almost everyone arguing for fighting resorts to that argument at some point.


Last edited by JAVO16: 01-22-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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01-22-2014, 11:35 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
Sorry about that. I just realized what was your argument by reading this post.




So we need an enforcer to build team spirit ? There are no other ways to strengthen the cohesiveness of a team than by having a useless plug go out there and try to punch a guy's teeth in ?

That's one of the most idiotic and ludicrous attempts at explaining the use of a goon that I've seen and you are the one berating us about critical thinking ? How about coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to build team spirit or gain momentum than by putting a guy like Parros on the ice and basically giving the opponent a man advantage.

Also, it's nice to see you implying that people arguing against fighting have never played a team sport (nevermind hockey!). It's sad that almost everyone arguing for fighting resorts to that argument at some point.
You will find very quickly that most pro-enforcer arguments on this board inevitably come back to:

1) Some unproveable, immeasurable intangible ("protection", "confidence", "team spirit")

2) The fact that teams that won the Stanley Cup have used them, regardless of what other variables those teams may have that we don't

3) "You've never played competitive hockey before, have you?"

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01-22-2014, 01:15 PM
  #120
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You will find very quickly that most pro-enforcer arguments on this board inevitably come back to:

1) Some unproveable, immeasurable intangible ("protection", "confidence", "team spirit")

2) The fact that teams that won the Stanley Cup have used them, regardless of what other variables those teams may have that we don't

3) "You've never played competitive hockey before, have you?"
Followed by the nerds who say things like "just avoid tough play", "let the referee do his job" and "but it didn't prevent player x from getting hurt so it's obviously useless..."

You guys just don't get it... Price hasn't been run into nearly as much this year. Guys like Orr and Thornton aren't going after Subban like before. Orr tried it and Parros stopped it immediately.... When you have great players, you protect them. Hockey people understand this.... Keyboard pacifists don't and get whiny. Fighting is part of the game and 98% of players want it in there. That should be good enough for anyone. Don't like it? Don't watch....

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01-22-2014, 01:38 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Followed by the nerds who say things like "just avoid tough play", "let the referee do his job" and "but it didn't prevent player x from getting hurt so it's obviously useless..."

You guys just don't get it... Price hasn't been run into nearly as much this year. Guys like Orr and Thornton aren't going after Subban like before. Orr tried it and Parros stopped it immediately.... When you have great players, you protect them. Hockey people understand this.... Keyboard pacifists don't and get whiny. Fighting is part of the game and 98% of players want it in there. That should be good enough for anyone. Don't like it? Don't watch....
Prove Price hasn't been run into nearly as much this year. Hint: you can't.
Prove players don't go after Subban like before. Hint: you can't.
How, again, did the Big Bad Bruins protect Eriksson, Bergeron and Savard? Hint: They didn't. All they did was injure Orpik in retaliation.

You are claiming an effect enforcers have on the game that you can't qualify with actual empirical data. However, we can look at the number of suspensions and injuries, how many were dirty hits and cross reference that with teams that do or do not have enforcers. Someone has already done that and shown that enforcers do not prevent anything.

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01-22-2014, 01:42 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Followed by the nerds who say things like "just avoid tough play", "let the referee do his job" and "but it didn't prevent player x from getting hurt so it's obviously useless..."

You guys just don't get it... Price hasn't been run into nearly as much this year. Guys like Orr and Thornton aren't going after Subban like before. Orr tried it and Parros stopped it immediately.... When you have great players, you protect them. Hockey people understand this.... Keyboard pacifists don't and get whiny. Fighting is part of the game and 98% of players want it in there. That should be good enough for anyone. Don't like it? Don't watch....
Unproveable data and name-calling, checkmark for points 1 and 3. You forgot to reference a team that won the Cup with an enforcer for the hat trick.

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01-22-2014, 01:58 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Unproveable data and name-calling, checkmark for points 1 and 3. You forgot to reference a team that won the Cup with an enforcer for the hat trick.


Golden response hoto, golden.

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01-22-2014, 02:27 PM
  #124
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Isn't it great? We've got an enforcer that can't enforce, and a team that can't do jack s***. The cupboards pretty much bare in Hamilton, and there's no reason to believe we're getting better (most pundits say worse post-olympics) next year.

Ain't it grand to be a soft team, without an identity? Go Habs Go!

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01-22-2014, 02:55 PM
  #125
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So, I decided to do a little digging. I used hockeyfights.com to get the fight cards for each team and included any team that had a player with 5 fights or more as a team that employs an enforcer or a fighter. Someone who is charged with the role of protecting his teammates. I also added Brandon Bollig due to the inference of SouthernHab that Bollig is, in fact, an enforcer that polices the game.

I then used Wikipedia to qualify a list of all suspensions that have been handed out in the pre-season and this season. I will admit that the one flaw to the collected data is that I did not go through the painstaking process of ensuring that the fighters with over 5 fights this season were in the line up the night of the incident. However, I highly doubt that it will change the results of the data all that much. Interesting to note, John Scott only has 2 fights to his name this season, meaning he really isn't doing any policing but he is still on the list because it is quite obvious what his job is.

Of the applicable offenses (in game indiscretions between players) there were 29 suspensions, of those 29 suspensions, 24 times the team that had a player suffer the consequences of an illegal hit, employed a player who has fought over 5 times this season.

Below is all the teams that have suffered from an illegal hit that resulted in the offender getting a suspension from the league. Contained within is the players that have exceeded the 5 fight criteria.

Chicago: Bollig and Brookbank with 3 fights each.
St Louis: Ryan Reaves with 7 fights. Twice his team had suffered an illegal hit that lead to a suspension.
Edmonton Oilers: Luke Gazdic with 10 fights. 3 times his team suffered an illegal play that lead to a suspension.
Buffalo Sabres: McCormick 7 fights, Foligon 5, Scott 2. 2 times his team suffered an illegal play.
New York Rangers: Derek Dorsett 9 fights, they also have Asham.
San Jose Sharks: Desjardins 8 fights, Mike Brown with 7. 2 times suffered an illegal play against.
Columbus Blue Jackets: Jared Boll 6 fights, Prout 5 fights.
LA Kings: Clifford 6 fights, Jordan Nolan 5 fights, Daniel Carcillo 5 fights.
Boston Bruins: McQuaid 7 fights, Shawn Thornton 6 fights. 4 times the Bruins suffered plays that resulted in suspensions.
Calgary Flames: McGrattan with 10 fights.
Minnesota Wild: Konopka 7 fights, Stoner 5 fights.
Ottawa Senators: Neil 9 fights, Kassian 5 fights.
Pittsburgh Penguins: Engelland 5 fights.
Washington: Wilson 9 fights, Volpatti 5 fights.
Dallas Stars: Roussell 8 fights.
Ducks: Maroon 8 fights, Jackman 5 fights.

Now, I will also admit that the "5" fights might seem a bit arbitrary. People will debate the nature of whether or not specific players fit the notion that they are enforcers or not. However, the proof of this data is that most of the teams in the league do have players who are willing and constantly dropping the gloves to fight. The end result is it has not stopped illegal plays from happening or continuing to happen. In fact, the Boston Bruins, who are the wet-knickers model of being tough, are the team that have seen the most indiscretions committed against their team.

This is example is not perfect as it was done only to give a brief overview of the reality and not be a be-all-end-all report for the debate of fighting in hockey. It serves as a reference point for the disillusioned point of view that having fighters actually decreases the amount of illegal plays in the game of hockey.

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