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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Who will win gold?

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Old
01-22-2014, 08:58 AM
  #476
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by Uhmkay View Post
You are correct, I was being generous. Markov was one that I added after the fact, originally I just had the 4 forwards. I decided to put Markov in because they are 'weaker' on the left side where they have Hamhuis and Vlasic. If he was a right handed shot, no chance Markov makes the team. But you're right, he probably doesn't. I only added him because he might get a sniff.

Other than the 4 forwards that I bolded (Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Datsyuk, and Malkin), there isn't a single other player on the team I think that would make Team Canada. The Goaltenders you might argue are even, but I'd still take experience of Luongo over either of their two NHL Goalies.

I think by listing the other teams and then showing who would actually make Team Canada goes to show just how strong Team Canada is and there were a few too many people spouting off that Russia was far better with their forwards. I think it's the opposite... and not even close. I would take Canada's top 4 over Russia's top 4, but the rest of the forward group is FAAARRR better than Russias and it's not even close folks.

I think doing the same thing with each nation is a real eye opener. How many Swedish players would make Team Canada? Finnish? Czech? Slovakian? Etc...
There are players on Team Canada I wouldn't expect to be on Team Canada (Nash, Kunitz, Carter...)

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01-22-2014, 09:04 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
In other news, I just heard that Canada is planning to call Nigel Dawes if one of the current players is injured.

Hey, he was a borderline player in the NHL, but look at his current gig in the KHL. Top 5 in scoring and all! Clearly, he's a great forward, underestimated by the media hype machine and all...

.
.
.

Yeah, I don't think so.
The KHL's leading scorer was left off Team Russia.


Last edited by stv11: 01-22-2014 at 09:16 AM.
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01-22-2014, 09:40 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
There are players on Team Canada I wouldn't expect to be on Team Canada (Nash, Kunitz, Carter...)


Yeah, it's been a bit controversial, but that's because we have so much talent to choose from, not because they're bad players.
  • Nash scored 8 goals in his last 8 games. He's still one of the best wingers in the NHL and one of the best players that have ever played for Team Canada since 2005.
  • Kunitz is one of the best canadian scorers in Canada, he would be a lock for any other international team.
  • Carter scored 46 goals over last 89 regular season games.

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01-22-2014, 09:43 AM
  #479
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Why? Dawes was always good offensively. I recall him leading the World Juniors in scoring way back when. He also scored at a torrid pace in the AHL. He's now in his prime and has had time to become acclimated to the KHL (now in his third year). The reason he didn't stick beyond three years in the NHL isn't that he's offensively inept, it's that his scoring isn't quite good enough to stick in a Top Six and he doesn't bring enough else to the table to be a good option for a Bottom Six. If NHL teams were constructed with solely the 12 best scorers guys like Dawes, Bochenski, and Mozyakin would be in the NHL while the Craig Adams and Colin Frasers of the world wouldn't be.


Last edited by stv11: 01-22-2014 at 10:04 AM. Reason: removed quote
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01-22-2014, 09:54 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
Russia's top 6 is much more skilled than Canada's. Kunitz? Yeah he sure is better than Semin...
Much more skilled? Yeah, that's your biased view pal. Kunitz is not as good as Semin individually, but if he and Crosby retain their chemistry, he'd be as good as Semin. I can accept that you think Russia's top 6 is more skilled, but *much more*? No.

I'm sure you think very highly of Ovechkin, but I think Stamkos > Ovechkin. The question is if Stamkos will regain his form in time.

Crosby ≥ Malkin - The Canadian captain is slightly better, but Gino may become a monster playing for country and on the big ice.
Tavares > Datsyuk - Datsyuk may be more skilled, but Tavares scores a lot more points. Goals and assists > defensive play IMO.

Right now, 5 of the top 10 scorers are on Team Canada. Where are the Russians? If Kovalchuk and Rudalov still played in the NHL, would they crack the top 10? Kovalchuk maybe, but he hasn't dominated for a handful of years. Radulov, forget it.

POINTS
RANK PLAYER TEAM GP G A PTS +/- PIM PP SHG
1 S. Crosby Pit 49 25 43 68 9 32 6 0
2 J. Tavares NYI 51 23 39 62 -1 38 7 0
3 R. Getzlaf Anh 48 25 34 59 23 17 4 0
4 P. Kane Chi 51 23 33 56 10 16 9 0
5 C. Perry Anh 52 27 28 55 24 46 6 0
6 J. Thornton SJ 50 6 47 53 14 10 2 0
7 P. Kessel Tor 52 26 26 52 -1 15 7 0
8 K. Okposo NYI 51 20 31 51 -4 37 4 0
9t J. Pavelski SJ 50 27 23 50 12 18 10 0
9t P. Sharp Chi 51 25 25 50 20 24 7 0

I can only see one reason why you'd think the Russian top 6 are better and that's the big ice surface. We'll have to see if the ice surface is a big deal or not, but on paper, I really don't see how you can think Russia's top are *much more*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
How can people even think that Crosby is better than Datsyuk? When you look at the main Russian forwards, such as Kovalchuk, Radulov, Semin, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, the only ones who compare from Canada are Crosby, Stamkos and Toews. In fact, the country with the best team going into this tournament is Sweden; and even Bovada predicted that Russia and Sweden have the best chances. People just don't seem to realise that most of Russia's KHL players were picked for defensive purposes, and they should excel at those.
How? Well, statistics is one aspect you can look at. I don't know but Crosby's numbers are pretty decent, no ? Of course numbers are only important when Russians do well. If not, toss those numbers away, they mean nothing.

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Originally Posted by Bure View Post
According to who? You........lol.

Send me to the gulag for not believing Canadian media hype of their players.

I respect that Canada is a talented team but the way some (not all of you) of you talk about it makes it seem like it's going to be an NHL team playing novice teams.

Fact: Hockey is played outside of Canada. In the past decade even Sweden won the whole thing! Quote my post, but it won't be such a breeze to gold for Canada. US, Sweden, Russia: all very talented teams.
You can say the same with some Russian fans. When I look at the numbers, there is no reason why I should think Semin and Rudalov are better or even equal to Canada's top players. I'm not saying that for sure they won't perform, but right now we can only speculate based on paper.

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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Why? Dawes was always good offensively. I recall him leading the World Juniors in scoring way back when. He also scored at a torrid pace in the AHL. He's now in his prime and has had time to become acclimated to the KHL (now in his third year). The reason he didn't stick beyond three years in the NHL isn't that he's offensively inept, it's that his scoring isn't quite good enough to stick in a Top Six and he doesn't bring enough else to the table to be a good option for a Bottom Six. If NHL teams were constructed with solely the 12 best scorers guys like Dawes, Bochenski, and Mozyakin would be in the NHL while the Craig Adams and Colin Frasers of the world wouldn't be.
The fact that some NHL players are not as good as Nigel Dawe is irrelevant because we're talking about elite players. The point is, his scoring isn't quite good enough to be among the leading scorers in the NHL, but somehow can crack the top 5 in the KHL.


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Old
01-22-2014, 10:18 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Canuck21t View Post
The fact that some NHL players are not as good as Nigel Dawe is irrelevant because we're talking about elite players. The point is, his scoring isn't quite good enough to be among the leading scorers in the NHL, but somehow can crack the top 5 in the KHL.
All the world's very best scorers are in the NHL outside of Kovalchuk and Radulov. When people say there are guys in the KHL that could play in the NHL it refers more to two-way hustle players who could make for good third liners rather than just plucking the league's top scorers. It's like when you look at the AHL, it's not really the guys who dominate the league scoring wise that are the ones that are going to be able to make the jump to the NHL the next year (outside of a small handful, most of the elite NHL forwards don't need AHL time) but rather the guys that can become good role players.

The KHL players Team Russia brought fall into the latter group, not the former. They didn't necessarily take the guys who score the most, but who can fit into roles better.

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01-22-2014, 11:06 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Bure View Post
According to who? You........lol.

Send me to the gulag for not believing Canadian media hype of their players.

I respect that Canada is a talented team but the way some (not all of you) of you talk about it makes it seem like it's going to be an NHL team playing novice teams.

Fact: Hockey is played outside of Canada. In the past decade even Sweden won the whole thing! Quote my post, but it won't be such a breeze to gold for Canada. US, Sweden, Russia: all very talented teams.
Yes, Canadian media hype is how we know the Canadian players are far better. It has nothing to do with the fact that most of these players play in the same league and have for years, and the Canadian players are very obviously far better outside of elite players like Malkin, Datsyuk Ovechkin and Kovalchuk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
How can people even think that Crosby is better than Datsyuk? When you look at the main Russian forwards, such as Kovalchuk, Radulov, Semin, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, the only ones who compare from Canada are Crosby, Stamkos and Toews. In fact, the country with the best team going into this tournament is Sweden; and even Bovada predicted that Russia and Sweden have the best chances. People just don't seem to realise that most of Russia's KHL players were picked for defensive purposes, and they should excel at those.
You're right, how can anyone think that Canadian forwards outside of Crosby, Stamkos or Toews is better than players like Semin? Semin is so clearly better than a guy like Tavares or Getzlaf that it is laughable. Plus, I agree that we should pretend that defencemen do not exist. That helps the narrative too.

Honestly, I do think that many posters simply watch youtube highlight videos of players from their country and neglect watching actual hockey. It is the only explanation I have for so many asinine things I have read.

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01-22-2014, 11:36 AM
  #483
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Datsuyk is a far more skilled and better hockey player than Crosby. That is fact. Having the most points does not automatically make one the best player, some have different roles. It is also laughable to assume that Radulov or Semin are sub-par, when Radulov came back he was the best player offensively for Nashville. And even with the exclusion of Semin, who had a concussion, players like Tarasenko or Nichushkin will be better than the likes of Perry or Kunitz. As I said, the only Canadians who can compare to the skill of Russia's offence are Crosby, Toews, Stamkos and maybe Tavares.

Just to be in line with the thread, who will win gold? Well Bovada predicted Russia; I think it is not clear yet, but the final would most likely be between Sweden and Russia, and since Sweden has the best team heading into this tournament, I think they will win gold.

I mean seriously, look at just these two lines:

Ovechkin-Datsuyk-Semin
Kovalchuk-Malkin-Radulov

That is just borderline insane. There is no way that an argument can be made against the fact that Russia's offence is supreme going into this tournament.

That is even without the mention of Tarasenko or Nichushkin.

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01-22-2014, 11:40 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by True Hockey Fan View Post


Yeah, it's been a bit controversial, but that's because we have so much talent to choose from, not because they're bad players.
  • Nash scored 8 goals in his last 8 games. He's still one of the best wingers in the NHL and one of the best players that have ever played for Team Canada since 2005.
  • Kunitz is one of the best canadian scorers in Canada, he would be a lock for any other international team.
  • Carter scored 46 goals over last 89 regular season games.
Kunitz would be a lock for Slovenia or Norway, not for a country such as Sweden or Russia.

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01-22-2014, 11:47 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
Datsuyk is a far more skilled and better hockey player than Crosby. That is fact. Having the most points does not automatically make one the best player, some have different roles. It is also laughable to assume that Radulov or Semin are sub-par, when Radulov came back he was the best player offensively for Nashville. And even with the exclusion of Semin, who had a concussion, players like Tarasenko or Nichushkin will be better than the likes of Perry or Kunitz. As I said, the only Canadians who can compare to the skill of Russia's offence are Crosby, Toews, Stamkos and maybe Tavares.

Just to be in line with the thread, who will win gold? Well Bovada predicted Russia; I think it is not clear yet, but the final would most likely be between Sweden and Russia, and since Sweden has the best team heading into this tournament, I think they will win gold.

I mean seriously, look at just these two lines:

Ovechkin-Datsuyk-Semin
Kovalchuk-Malkin-Radulov

That is just borderline insane. There is no way that an argument can be made against the fact that Russia's offence is supreme going into this tournament.

That is even without the mention of Tarasenko or Nichushkin.
Skill means what? Flashiness? Unless games are going to be decided like figure skating matches, I would prefer having players who put up points and prevent points, regardless of whether or not it would look great on youtube. Everyone agrees that Russia has a great top two lines (Semin stands out as not being a world class player though) but it isn't much better than any of the best countries in the tournament, and the subsequent lines are far weaker than what Canada, Sweden or USA will send out. I am laughing at the inclusion of Tarasenko (on pace for 50 points) and Nichushkin (recently a healthy scratch and is the worst player on his own NHL line) as noteworthy Olympians. Scary in the future possibly, but this is 2014.

Russia's forward group is comparable to other top teams, mainly because of the top six. It isn't the best in the tournament, but it could arguably be second. The defencemen are far worse than Canada, Sweden and USA. Luckily the teams actually have to play the games, so Russia being pretty far behind in talent does not preclude them from actually winning the tournament.

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01-22-2014, 11:51 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Skill means what? Flashiness? Unless games are going to be decided like figure skating matches, I would prefer having players who put up points and prevent points, regardless of whether or not it would look great on youtube. Everyone agrees that Russia has a great top two lines (Semin stands out as not being a world class player though) but it isn't much better than any of the best countries in the tournament, and the subsequent lines are far weaker than what Canada, Sweden or USA will send out. I am laughing at the inclusion of Tarasenko (on pace for 50 points) and Nichushkin (recently a healthy scratch and is the worst player on his own NHL line) as noteworthy Olympians. Scary in the future possibly, but this is 2014.

Russia's forward group is comparable to other top teams, mainly because of the top six. It isn't the best in the tournament, but it could arguably be second. The defencemen are far worse than Canada, Sweden and USA. Luckily the teams actually have to play the games, so Russia being pretty far behind in talent does not preclude them from actually winning the tournament.
You are under a grave delusion.

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01-22-2014, 11:51 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
Datsuyk is a far more skilled and better hockey player than Crosby. That is fact. Having the most points does not automatically make one the best player, some have different roles. It is also laughable to assume that Radulov or Semin are sub-par, when Radulov came back he was the best player offensively for Nashville. And even with the exclusion of Semin, who had a concussion, players like Tarasenko or Nichushkin will be better than the likes of Perry or Kunitz. As I said, the only Canadians who can compare to the skill of Russia's offence are Crosby, Toews, Stamkos and maybe Tavares.

Just to be in line with the thread, who will win gold? Well Bovada predicted Russia; I think it is not clear yet, but the final would most likely be between Sweden and Russia, and since Sweden has the best team heading into this tournament, I think they will win gold.

I mean seriously, look at just these two lines:

Ovechkin-Datsuyk-Semin
Kovalchuk-Malkin-Radulov

That is just borderline insane. There is no way that an argument can be made against the fact that Russia's offence is supreme going into this tournament.

That is even without the mention of Tarasenko or Nichushkin.
You've clearly never watched Crosby because what you're saying is absurd. And after Russia's first two lines, which are worse than Canada's, it goes completely downhill from there. Tarensenko and Nichushkin aren't even close in terms of talent to any TC player.

Please tell me which of these you disagree with:
Crosby > Ovechkin
Stamkos > Malkin
Tavares >= Kovalchuk
Toews >= Datsyuk
Getzlaf > Semin
Duchene>Radulov

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01-22-2014, 11:54 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
Datsuyk is a far more skilled and better hockey player than Crosby. That is fact. Having the most points does not automatically make one the best player, some have different roles. It is also laughable to assume that Radulov or Semin are sub-par, when Radulov came back he was the best player offensively for Nashville. And even with the exclusion of Semin, who had a concussion, players like Tarasenko or Nichushkin will be better than the likes of Perry or Kunitz. As I said, the only Canadians who can compare to the skill of Russia's offence are Crosby, Toews, Stamkos and maybe Tavares.

Just to be in line with the thread, who will win gold? Well Bovada predicted Russia; I think it is not clear yet, but the final would most likely be between Sweden and Russia, and since Sweden has the best team heading into this tournament, I think they will win gold.

I mean seriously, look at just these two lines:

Ovechkin-Datsuyk-Semin
Kovalchuk-Malkin-Radulov

That is just borderline insane. There is no way that an argument can be made against the fact that Russia's offence is supreme going into this tournament.

That is even without the mention of Tarasenko or Nichushkin.
It's a pretty good indicator. Crosby is the best player in the world and that's a fact. Saying Datsyuk is better than Crosby just proves you know absolutely nothing about hockey.


Last edited by Trance Kuja: 01-22-2014 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Don't go there.
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01-22-2014, 11:55 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
You've clearly never watched Crosby because what you're saying is absurd. And after Russia's first two lines, which are worse than Canada's, it goes completely downhill from there. Tarensenko and Nichushkin aren't even close in terms of talent to any TC player.

Please tell me which of these you disagree with:
Crosby > Ovechkin
Stamkos > Malkin
Tavares >= Kovalchuk
Toews >= Datsyuk
Getzlaf > Semin
Duchene>Radulov
I think you need to compare more similar players, so something like this:
Crosby < Datsyuk
Stamkos < Ovechkin
Getzlaf < Malkin
Tarvares >= Radulov
Toews = Kovalchuk
Duchene > Semin

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01-22-2014, 12:03 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
Datsuyk is a far more skilled and better hockey player than Crosby. That is fact. Having the most points does not automatically make one the best player, some have different roles. It is also laughable to assume that Radulov or Semin are sub-par, when Radulov came back he was the best player offensively for Nashville. And even with the exclusion of Semin, who had a concussion, players like Tarasenko or Nichushkin will be better than the likes of Perry or Kunitz. As I said, the only Canadians who can compare to the skill of Russia's offence are Crosby, Toews, Stamkos and maybe Tavares.

Just to be in line with the thread, who will win gold? Well Bovada predicted Russia; I think it is not clear yet, but the final would most likely be between Sweden and Russia, and since Sweden has the best team heading into this tournament, I think they will win gold.

I mean seriously, look at just these two lines:

Ovechkin-Datsuyk-Semin
Kovalchuk-Malkin-Radulov

That is just borderline insane. There is no way that an argument can be made against the fact that Russia's offence is supreme going into this tournament.

That is even without the mention of Tarasenko or Nichushkin.
That is not even close to being a fact. Crosby is the best player in the world by quite a bit IMO and I hate the Pens with a passion, and frankly, hate his attitude as a player most of the time as well. Having said that, reality is reality and the reality is that he's the best. Crosby has never, ever finished a season under a PPG. In fact, he's only scored less than 20 more points than games played twice in his career, one time when he was only 19 points over games played, and one time when he only played 22 games in a season. He has 4 hundred point seasons under his belt as a 26 year old while Datsyuk has 0 under his belt as a 35 year old. Datsyuk is one of, if not the best, defensive forwards out there right now, but Crosby is no slouch on D either. Being a fan of neither the Pens or the Wings, nor Russia or Canada, Crosby is the better player by far in my opinion.

Further, saying Tarasenko and/or Nichushkin are better than Perry is absurd. Kunitz, maybe. Perry, not even close. Like, miles away.

As for the Russian forwards being the best by far, I seem to recall a very similarly skilled top 6 accomplishing almost nothing last Olympics. Games are played on ice. Any team out of CAN/RUS/USA/SWED can finish on top.

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01-22-2014, 12:10 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
I think you need to compare more similar players, so something like this:
Crosby > Datsyuk
Stamkos = Ovechkin
Getzlaf < Malkin
Tavares > Radulov
Toews = Kovalchuk
Duchene > Semin
Fixed, even top end talent with similar players, you have one payer who is better. But please, tell me more about how your matched top 6 will bring you a gold medal. Because with your train wreck of a defence, you'll have to be scoring about 7 goals a game if that's going to happen.


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01-22-2014, 12:13 PM
  #492
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As for the Russian forwards being the best by far, I seem to recall a very similarly skilled top 6 accomplishing almost nothing last Olympics.
I can imagine the response:"but...but...but...small ice!" , disregarding the fact that Russians were 1st, 2nd & 4th in scoring the previous season in the SIHL (Small Ice Hockey League)


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01-22-2014, 12:17 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
Fixed
Actually you may want to change Towes > Kovalchuk.

I've seen Kovalchuk play this year. He's nowhere close to the Kovalchuk we know or the form required to play at an Olympic level and be effective. Team Russia masseuse better be at the top of her game as his back looks to be failing.

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01-22-2014, 12:24 PM
  #494
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You are under a grave delusion.
Can you elaborate on this grave delusion?

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01-22-2014, 12:29 PM
  #495
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Actually you may want to change Towes > Kovalchuk.

I've seen Kovalchuk play this year. He's nowhere close to the Kovalchuk we know or the form required to play at an Olympic level and be effective. Team Russia masseuse better be at the top of her game as his back looks to be failing.
I'm being generous, there could also be arguments for Stamkos > Ovechkin too

Point is, Canada's top 6 is on par with Russia's and if not better. Add the fact that Canada's bottom 6 is miles ahead of russia's tells you that their forwards are much better on paper.

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01-22-2014, 12:32 PM
  #496
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Actually you may want to change Towes > Kovalchuk.

I've seen Kovalchuk play this year. He's nowhere close to the Kovalchuk we know or the form required to play at an Olympic level and be effective. Team Russia masseuse better be at the top of her game as his back looks to be failing.
Not only that but towes is elite defensively and in the faceoff circle. Has kovalchuk ever skated across his own blue line before? I'm pretty sure when play is going that direction he skates right to the bench lol.

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01-22-2014, 12:34 PM
  #497
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Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
I'm being generous, there could also be arguments for Stamkos > Ovechkin too

Point is, Canada's top 6 is on par with Russia's and if not better. Add the fact that Canada's bottom 6 is miles ahead of russia's tells you that their forwards are much better on paper.
Of course! I'd rate Canada's Top 6 better and Bottom 6 significantly better.

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Old
01-22-2014, 03:14 PM
  #498
True Hockey Fan
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Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
Kunitz would be a lock for Slovenia or Norway, not for a country such as Sweden or Russia.



It will be that much better feeling when we win the tournament with beating the Russians and Sweden, haha.


Last edited by True Hockey Fan: 01-22-2014 at 03:24 PM.
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Old
01-22-2014, 03:27 PM
  #499
Chieftans22*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
I think you need to compare more similar players, so something like this:
Crosby < Datsyuk
Stamkos < Ovechkin
Getzlaf < Malkin
Tarvares >= Radulov
Toews = Kovalchuk
Duchene > Semin

Crosby is definitely better than Datsyuk. Stamkos and Ovechkin are equals. The way Getzlaf is playing ATM, he's better than Malkin. Tavares* is better than Radulov.

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Old
01-22-2014, 09:18 PM
  #500
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMachiavelli View Post
I think you need to compare more similar players, so something like this:
Crosby < Datsyuk
Stamkos < Ovechkin
Getzlaf < Malkin
Tarvares >= Radulov
Toews = Kovalchuk
Duchene > Semin
Bochenski, Dawes and Wilson are all having a better year in the KHL than either Radulov or Kovalchuk. Let`s face it, Russian fans love these guys because they chose the KHL over the NHL but they are not elite level players right now. Radulov has always been way overrated and Kovalchuk has only had one good season in the last 4yrs. Semin is also not having a great year either and is hardly of the class of any of these players. Datsyuk is past his prime and no longer better than most of these guys.

Crosby > Malkin
Stamkos > Ovechkin
Getzlaf > Datsyuk
Tarvares >> Radulov
Toews >> Kovalchuk
Duchene >> Semin

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