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Paul Holmgren's Best Moves as GM (Edit: Added Worst Moves as GM)

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Old
01-20-2014, 12:08 PM
  #51
FlyersFanz
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Getting Mason and Voracek, didn't the Flyers get a 2011 1st rounder for Carter/Voracek trade which ended up being Couturier draft pick.

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01-20-2014, 02:01 PM
  #52
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Getting Mason and Voracek, didn't the Flyers get a 2011 1st rounder for Carter/Voracek trade which ended up being Couturier draft pick.
Yes, Mason wasn't a part of that. Mason was acquired for Leighton and a 3rd rounder.

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01-20-2014, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Yes, Mason wasn't a part of that. Mason was acquired for Leighton and a 3rd rounder.
can't believe we had to give up Leighton in addition to a 3rd to get Mason!

jokes

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01-21-2014, 01:58 PM
  #54
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Added Holmgren's worst transactions. Signing MFL before free agency might have been the worst one because of what it eventually caused. If we would have signed a competent goaltender that offseason, do the Flyers go bonkers and sign Bryzgalov to that huge deal? I'm not sure they do.

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01-21-2014, 02:13 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Added Holmgren's worst transactions. Signing MFL before free agency might have been the worst one because of what it eventually caused. If we would have signed a competent goaltender that offseason, do the Flyers go bonkers and sign Bryzgalov to that huge deal? I'm not sure they do.
And because Bryz was so terrible it made the Flyers feel compelled to trade for stay at home guys to protect Bryz. Hello, JVR for Schenn.

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01-21-2014, 02:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hockey Writers
Signed Chris Pronger to 7 year, $34.9M deal on July 7th, 2009
Oh **** off. He TOOK us to the cup.

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01-21-2014, 02:56 PM
  #57
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bad moves? trading for Eminger and signing Bryz

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01-21-2014, 04:21 PM
  #58
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The good moves were easy for me to list; let's see if I can remember all the bad ones, or if I have repressed some of the memories.

Free agent signings: Shelley, Jones extension, Leighton, Pronger extension (clearly messed up the 35+ rule), Streit (maybe; he's already too slow... 3 more years), Lecavalier (maybe; see Streit), Bryzgalov, Richards extension (that contract will be an annoyance for LA if they don't buy him out), Zherdev (it was only one year, but just didn't fit).

Trades: Bobrovsky, acquiring Eminger, Gagne for Walker, JVR for Schenn (probably)... honestly can't think of any more that really grind my gears. The Upshall trade would go in the loss column but it, on its own, wasn't a disaster; it was one of a series of moves resulting from amateurish cap management.

Miscellaneous: Cap management (specifically the year where the Flyers had to sign two players to ATO contracts to fill roster spots because they needed players and couldn't sign pros because it would violate the cap), allowing Lavi to start this season knowing that he was on a short leash (should have been fired in the off-season).

Looking at Billy's list after the fact and I think I covered all of his choices.

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01-21-2014, 05:18 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The good moves were easy for me to list; let's see if I can remember all the bad ones, or if I have repressed some of the memories.

Free agent signings: Shelley, Jones extension, Leighton, Pronger extension (clearly messed up the 35+ rule), Streit (maybe; he's already too slow... 3 more years), Lecavalier (maybe; see Streit), Bryzgalov, Richards extension (that contract will be an annoyance for LA if they don't buy him out), Zherdev (it was only one year, but just didn't fit).

Trades: Bobrovsky, acquiring Eminger, Gagne for Walker, JVR for Schenn (probably)... honestly can't think of any more that really grind my gears. The Upshall trade would go in the loss column but it, on its own, wasn't a disaster; it was one of a series of moves resulting from amateurish cap management.

Miscellaneous: Cap management (specifically the year where the Flyers had to sign two players to ATO contracts to fill roster spots because they needed players and couldn't sign pros because it would violate the cap), allowing Lavi to start this season knowing that he was on a short leash (should have been fired in the off-season).

Looking at Billy's list after the fact and I think I covered all of his choices.
Don't forget paying a 1st to buy Versteeg high and sell him low. That was just a big bag of pointless.

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01-21-2014, 05:39 PM
  #60
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Don't forget paying a 1st to buy Versteeg high and sell him low. That was just a big bag of pointless.

Giving up a second to get another team to take Gauthier...

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01-21-2014, 05:41 PM
  #61
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List of Holmgrens signings, extension, waiver claims (no EL's, minor stuff):

My ratings:
Purple: Great
Green: Good
Yellow: Undecided/conflicted
Black: Meh
Pink: Bad
Red: Awful

06-07:

29-Nov-06 Mike Knuble signed (2 yr extension - $2.8M/yr)
30-Dec-06 Dimitry Afanasenkov claimed from Tampa Bay Lightning on waivers
2-Jan-07 Petr Nedved lost to Edmonton Oilers from waivers
11-Jan-07 Michael Leighton claimed from Nashville Predators on waivers
13-Feb-07 Sami Kapanen signed (2 yr, $1.25M/yr)
24-Feb-07 Nolan Baumgartner lost to Dallas Stars from waivers
27-Feb-07 Michael Leighton lost to Montreal Canadiens from waivers
27-Feb-07 Denis Hamel claimed from Atlanta Thrashers on waivers
27-Mar-07 Martin Biron signed (2 yr - $3.5M/yr)

2007-08:

11-May-07 Scottie Upshall signed (2 yr $1.225M/yr)
14-May-07 Ben Eager signed (2 yr $600K/yr)
17-May-07 Lasse Kukkonen signed (2 yr, $875k/yr)
14-Jun-07 Antero Niittymaki signed (2 yr, $1.25M/yr)
18-Jun-07 Kimmo Timonen signed (6 yr, $6.3M/yr)
18-Jun-07 Scott Hartnell signed (6 yr, $4.2M/yr)

1-Jul-07 Daniel Briere signed as a free agent (8yr, $6.5M/yr)
23-Jul-07 Brian Boucher signed (Contract with Phantoms)
25-Jul-07 Riley Cote signed (1 yr, $500k)
2-Oct-07 Jim Dowd signed as a free agent (1 yr, $500k)
28-Nov-07 Braydon Coburn signed (2-yr extension, $1.3M/yr)
13-Dec-07 Mike Richards signed (12-yr extension, $5.75M/yr)
22-Feb-08 Patrick Thoresen claimed from Edmonton Oilers on waivers

2008-09:

27-Jun-08 Jeff Carter signed (3 yr, $5M/yr)
29-Jun-08 Steve Eminger signed (1 Yr, $1.2M)
1-Jul-08 Ossi Vaananen signed as a free agent (2yr, $1M/yr)
1-Jul-08 Glen Metropolit signed as a free agent (1yr, $1M/yr)
1-Jul-08 Randy Jones signed (2 yr $2.75M/yr)
1-Jul-08 Riley Cote signed (3 yr $550k/yr)
7-Jul-08 Arron Asham signed as a free agent (2yr, $640k/yr)
21-Jul-08 Joffrey Lupul signed (4-yr extension, $4.25M/yr)
27-Feb-09 Ossi Vaananen lost to Vancouver Canucks via waiver draft
27-Feb-09 Glen Metropolit lost to Montreal Canadiens via waiver draft

2009-10:

10-Jun-09 Ray Emery signed as a free agent (1yr, $1.5M/yr)
1-Jul-09 Brian Boucher signed as a free agent (2yr, $925k/yr)
1-Jul-09 Ian Laperriere signed as a free agent (3yr, $1.17M/yr)
7-Jul-09 Chris Pronger signed (7 yr extension, $4.94M/yr)
14-Jul-09 Mika Pyorala signed as a free agent (1yr, $500k)
30-Jul-09 Ole-Kristian Tollefsen signed as a free agent (1yr, $600k)
1-Oct-09 Blair Betts signed as a free agent (1yr, $550k)
29-Oct-09 Randy Jones lost to Los Angeles Kings via waiver draft
4-Dec-09 Peter Laviolette signed (Head coach)
15-Dec-09 Michael Leighton claimed from Carolina Hurricanes on waivers
30-Jan-10 Lucas Krajicek signed as a free agent (1yr, $700k/yr)
11-Feb-10 Blair Betts signed (2 yr extension, $700k/yr)
18-Mar-10 Ben Holmstrom signed as a free agent (2yr, $600k/yr)
29-Mar-10 Erik Gustafsson signed as a free agent (3yr, $900k/yr)
6-May-10 Sergei Bobrovsky signed as a free agent (3yr, $1.75m/yr)

2010-11:

30-Jun-10 Michael Leighton signed (2yr, $1.55M/yr)
1-Jul-10 Braydon Coburn signed (2 yr, $3.2M/yr)
1-Jul-10 Sean O'Donnell signed as a free agent (1yr, $1.3M/yr)

1-Jul-10 Jody Shelley signed as a free agent (3yr, $1.1M/yr)
9-Jul-10 Nikolay Zherdev signed as a free agent (1yr, $2M/yr)
13-Jul-10 Dan Carcillo signed (1 yr, $1.075M/yr)
22-Jul-10 Darroll Powe signed (1 yr, $725K/yr)
8-Nov-10 Claude Giroux signed (3 yr, $3.75M/yr)

13-Nov-10 Jeff Carter signed (11 yr, $5.27M/yr)
23-Nov-10 Brandon Manning signed as a free agent (3yr, $900k/yr)
26-Feb-11 Nick Boynton claimed from Chicago Blackhawks on waivers
2-Mar-11 Jason Akeson signed as a free agent (3yr, $900k/yr)
7-Mar-11 Harry Zolnierczyk signed as a free agent (1yr, $775k/yr)
15-Mar-11 Oliver Lauridsen signed as a free agent (2yr, $650k/yr)
23-Mar-11 Matt Read signed as a free agent (3yr, $900k/yr)

2011-12:

23-Jun-11 Ilya Bryzgalov signed (9 yr, $5.67M/yr)
27-Jun-11 Andreas Nodl signed (2 yr, $845k/yr)
27-Jun-11 Tom Sestito signed (1 yr, $550k/yr)
1-Jul-11 Jaromir Jagr signed as a free agent (1 yr, $3.3M/yr)
1-Jul-11 Jakub Voracek signed (1 yr, $2.25M/yr)

1-Jul-11 Andreas Lilja signed as a free agent (2yr, $738k/yr)
1-Jul-11 Maxime Talbot signed as a free agent (5yr, $1.75M/yr)
7-Jul-11 Wayne Simmonds signed (2 yr, $1.75M/yr)
7-Jul-11 Tye McGinn signed (3 yr, $775k/yr)
30-Aug-01 James van Riemsdyk signed (6yr contract extension, $4.25M/yr)
5-Oct-11 Blair Betts lost to Montreal Canadiens via waiver draft
9-Nov-11 Braydon Coburn signed (4 yr extension, $4.5M/yr)
29-Nov-11 Andreas Nodl lost to Carolina Hurricanes via waiver draft
6-Mar-12 Cal Heeter signed as a free agent (2yr, $950k/yr)
6-Apr-12 Nicklas Grossmann signed (4yr, $3.5M/yr)

2012-13:

1-Jul-12 Michael Leighton signed (1 yr, $900K)
5-Jul-12 Bruno Gervais signed as a free agent (2yr, $825k/yr)

5-Jul-12 Ruslan Fedotenko signed as a free agent (1yr, $1.75M/yr)
9-Jul-12 Tom Sestito signed (1 yr, $605K/yr)
12-Jul-12 Ben Holmstrom signed (1 yr, $550K/yr)
25-Jul-12 Harry Zolnierczyk signed (1 yr, $600K/yr)
26-Jul-12 Jakub Voracek signed (4 yr, $4.25M/yr)
8-Aug-12 Marc-Andre Bourdon signed extension (2yr, $613k/yr)
15-Aug-12 Wayne Simmonds signed (6 yr extension, $3.98M/yr)
20-Aug-12 Scott Hartnell signed (6 yr extension, $4.75M/yr)
13-Jan-13 Kurtis Foster signed as a free agent (1yr, $950k/yr)
24-Jan-13 Mike Knuble signed as a free agent (1yr, $750k/yr)
7-Feb-13 Kimmo Timonen signed (1 yr extension, $6M/yr)
1-Mar-13 Tom Sestito lost to Vancouver Canucks via waiver draft
3-Apr-13 Adam Hall claimed from Tampa Bay Lightning via waiver draft
8-Apr-13 Steve Mason signed (1 yr extension, $1.5M/yr)

11-Apr-13 Petr Straka signed as a free agent (3yr, $925k/yr)
17-Apr-13 Zac Rinaldo signed (2 yr extension, $750k)
17-Apr-13 Jay Rosehill signed (2 yr extension, $675k)
31-May-13 Michael Raffl signed as a free agent (1yr, $925k)

2013-14:

28-Jun-13 Mark Streit signed (4 yr, $5.25M/yr)
2-Jul-13 Vincent Lecavalier signed as a free agent (5 yr, $4.5M/yr)

4-Jul-13 Adam Hall signed (1 yr, $600,000/yr)
5-Jul-13 Ray Emery signed as a free agent (1yr, $1.65M/yr)
5-Jul-13 Claude Giroux signed extension (8 years, $8.28M/yr)
5-Jul-13 Erik Gustafsson signed extension (1 year, $1M/yr)
10-Jul-13 Oliver Lauridsen signed extension (2 years, $600k/yr)
20-Jul-13 Sean Couturier signed extension (2 years, $1.75M/yr)
7-Oct-13 Craig Berube signed (Named as Flyers head coach)

Feel free to change them as you may... was going to put in trades as well but CBA!

If they are yellow it generally means I duno how it will pan out, or it was good at the time and immediately after but bad/below average a few years down the line, possibly due to other factors or evolving factors.

Some of the meh's could be considered bad/good depending on individual feeling on range of 'good' and 'bad'


Last edited by Appleyard: 01-21-2014 at 05:49 PM.
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01-21-2014, 05:47 PM
  #62
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Ooh, forgot about Lilja; that was another terrible signing.

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01-21-2014, 06:58 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mypunkrock View Post
Giving up a second to get another team to take Gauthier...
I was originally going to include that one but I didn't because these other ones had more of a negative impact. Holmgren also inherited Gauthier from Clarke. Giving away a 2nd instead of just burying him in the minors for one more year was very stupid though.

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01-21-2014, 07:56 PM
  #64
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I was originally going to include that one but I didn't because these other ones had more of a negative impact. Holmgren also inherited Gauthier from Clarke. Giving away a 2nd instead of just burying him in the minors for one more year was very stupid though.
This may or may not be accurate, but that's the first instance I can recall of Homer throwing away seconds like pennies over the past 6 or so years.

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01-21-2014, 10:46 PM
  #65
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This is clearly a case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Look at other teams around the league, we are LUCKY to have Holmgren.

The only so so moves for me have been his handling of the coaches, Stevens and Laviolette stuck around for way too long. But I guess it shows how loyal the guy to his staff and players, not exactly negative.

Like I always say, I rather have Homgren "retooling" than some other dude doing tradionnal rebuilds that never work. Pittsburgh didn't rebuild the tradionnal way, they were gifted 2 of the best players on the planet. Look at Edmonton, that is "rebuilding", aka watching paint dry.

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01-21-2014, 10:53 PM
  #66
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This is clearly a case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Look at other teams around the league, we are LUCKY to have Holmgren.

The only so so moves for me have been his handling of the coaches, Stevens and Laviolette stuck around for way too long. But I guess it shows how loyal the guy to his staff and players, not exactly negative.

Like I always say, I rather have Homgren "retooling" than some other dude doing tradionnal rebuilds that never work. Pittsburgh didn't rebuild the tradionnal way, they were gifted 2 of the best players on the planet. Look at Edmonton, that is "rebuilding", aka watching paint dry.
Those are his only "so so" moves?

That foolish and ultimately disastrous Leighton signing was just fine?

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01-22-2014, 12:06 AM
  #67
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our 1st for eminger best trade ever hands down

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01-22-2014, 01:00 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think His good moves are as such

Read
Ville Leino
Bob
Mason
Forsberg trade
Coburn trade
Picks such as couturier, laughton, and stolarz


Great Moves

Richards trade
Carter Trade



Bad Moves

Jvr
Eminger
Sbisa pick
Pronger trade and signing
bryz
Prospal trade
Kubina trade
shelley
bob trade
versteeg trade
This is basically my list as well. I don't think the Sbisa pick was bad though. Also wouldn't count Stolarz as a good pick given they took him earlier than he was ranked. Those assessments above are in hindsight, they have to be evaluated as the time they occurred. Klotz and Goulbourne were bad picks.


Last edited by BillDineen: 01-22-2014 at 01:22 AM.
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01-22-2014, 02:27 PM
  #69
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how is the Pronger trade bad? he single handedly brought us to the cup finals

the trade itself was good, but it's the extension and career-ending injury that sucks


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01-22-2014, 02:39 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
how is the Pronger trade bad? he single handedly brought us to the cup finals

the trade itself as good, but it's the extension and career-ending injury that sucks
Agreed...if Pronger doesn't get injured, there is no telling where the franchise is and who is on it, at this point in time.

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01-22-2014, 02:44 PM
  #71
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Agreed...if Pronger doesn't get injured, there is no telling where the franchise is and who is on it, at this point in time.
I could tell you one player who wouldnt be here: Mark Streit


damn you Pronger for getting injured!

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01-22-2014, 03:04 PM
  #72
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I could tell you one player who wouldnt be here: Mark Streit


damn you Pronger for getting injured!
RJ, I just had a different post about Streit and how I support the move. I don't think Timonen is here after this season and Streit can fit into that role with the right salary without missing a beat. Plus he is a stronger point defenseman than, say, Timonen or Matt Carle. His shot appears to be stronger and more accurate, leading to more goals. Makes sense to me.

Not to mention, people pick on him for his defense and age. Well, he is a minus player for his career.......but he played with some really bad Islanders teams. He has also played, I believe, in every game since the 2009-2010 season.

So if you are PH, you see an older PMD who has played in every game over the past 3 or 4 seasons, seems to have a good shot from the point, is offensive minded, and while having defensive deficiences, seems to be a similar player to your current PMD who is set to retire. And you can get him around 5.5 million a season? Seems like a no-brainer.

Streit did not play well for the first part of the season, and that was painfully obvious. He was out of position and was not producing offensively (4 points in 15 games). He has since turned it around and even noted he was having difficulty adjusting but seems to be in a better spot now. He has 10 points in his last 16 and 23 total points on the season. He seems to be making less mistakes (on the Coburn Turnover Bar, he might be a 3. Coburn is consistently at 9 or 10 ) and hopefully is poised to be a Timonen-type player for next season as well.

Again, I just don't see the problem, especially given the going rate for some defensemen. I get the hesitation from Flyers fans, though, because we certainly have some clunkers on our blue line.

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01-22-2014, 03:15 PM
  #73
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The contract was bad because either:

1. Pronger retires and we're on the hook for the entire thing on our cap.

2. Pronger goes on LTIR for the final years and we have to clear his 4.94M in cap space at the beginning of the year and then put him on LTIR, hindering our ability to sign free agents.

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01-22-2014, 04:44 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
how is the Pronger trade bad? he single handedly brought us to the cup finals

the trade itself was good, but it's the extension and career-ending injury that sucks
"single-handedly" is a bit much.

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01-22-2014, 04:51 PM
  #75
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"single-handedly" is a bit much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
The contract was bad because either:

1. Pronger retires and we're on the hook for the entire thing on our cap.

2. Pronger goes on LTIR for the final years and we have to clear his 4.94M in cap space at the beginning of the year and then put him on LTIR, hindering our ability to sign free agents.
^This. Also Pronger certainly did put us over the top for the cup run. But look at what else we had. It was one hell of a team.

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