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Wed., Jan. 22, 2014| Hurricanes 3 at Flyers 2

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Old
01-22-2014, 10:59 PM
  #126
Striiker
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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
How about a consistent effort? You know even if they had lost but the chances and effort was there, this game wouldn't have left such a bitter taste in my mouth. This team sleep walked through 55 minutes of this game. A deflection goal off the goalie and a secondary assist on the power play doesn't justify a ****** effort for the rest of the game, specifically 5 on 5.

And yes, tonight with that display, even having Stamkos play alongside Giroux wouldn't have changed a single thing from a Giroux standpoint.
And here it is again, the single most overused and incorrect excuse used every loss, "lack of effort". I swear it's just the go-to when people aren't capable of recognizing specific problems but they want to complain too.

The loss was not a lack of effort, it was a select few players who just flat out played bad. It's not that they weren't trying, it's either that they're not skilled enough, not smart enough, not being used correctly, or maybe they just had a bad game.

Based on your last sentence there, you're just determined to blame Giroux. Clearly all common sense and logic is out the window at this point because that is one of the dumbest things I've read on here. Especially if you're trying to imply that Giroux gave no effort or was "sleep walking" through the game.

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01-22-2014, 11:03 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
I like Vinny, he just hasn't been utilized offensively since returning from injury. Downie, neither.

Move Raffl off the top line and mix things up a little.

B. Schenn - Giroux - Voracek
Hartnell - Lecavalier - Simmonds
Raffl - Couturier - Read
Rosehill/VV - Hall - Downie

Vinny vs. B. Schenn on faceoffs is a wash, and no better way than to get Vinny moving offensively than to put him with our two hottest wingers. Raffl-Couturier-Read is solid two-way and has some quality speed and work down low. I really would like to see Meszaros traded too while his value doesn't suck, and have Gustafsson inserted in his place. This team doesn't have many players who are quality skaters. Voracek, Read and Raffl are the only forwards who I would say have breakaway speed. Giroux isn't bad at all but not anything special in the speed department.
This is the exact lineup I've been wanting for quite a while now... it makes the most sense when you consider team needs and each players strengths and weaknesses... but it's not going to happen. Berube refuses to make smart changes in the lineup. Obviously this runs the risk of making the 2nd line worse by taking Schenn away from Simmonds, but I think the improvement to the 1st and 3rd lines make it worth it.

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01-22-2014, 11:25 PM
  #128
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Why the hell does Carolina keep ******* beating us this year?!

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01-22-2014, 11:27 PM
  #129
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Effort was there. The problem is, much of that effort was expended either towards doing the wrong things, or spent individually instead of working towards a goal as a cohesive unit.

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01-22-2014, 11:37 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Effort was there. The problem is, much of that effort was expended either towards doing the wrong things, or spent individually instead of working towards a goal as a cohesive unit.
Yea that's what I noticed too. Individual efforts but no cycling or passing. D was off again outside of Grossmann. Mason gives more rebounds in a game than esche gave all year...

And they all go straight to the slot.

The way this team is set up on offense and goalie we should be D heavy and not fwd heavy

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01-22-2014, 11:38 PM
  #131
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Yikes. When this team's not good, they're really, really not good. I'm dumbfounded every time a Flyers player has the puck in their own zone with no opposition around, yet they still somehow manage to turn it over.

Ugh.

This team takes a step forward only to take another two back. TRADE EVERYONE!!!!

Oh yeah, and put Gus back in and put Vinny back at center. Please?

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01-22-2014, 11:53 PM
  #132
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Vinny looks lost as **** on the wing.

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01-22-2014, 11:57 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
They're definitely top ten at their position, but top ten players overall is probably not true. Kane is usually a PPG to 90 P winger who doesn't really do anything besides score (meaning he can't PK, take face-offs, play a special defensive game, etc.) and Toews is a lot more well-rounded but has less scoring capability. If you're saying a top 10 player overall then you're comparing them to players at every position.

Anyhow, the Flyers had Richards/Carter once. At their times here Richards was an annual Selke candidate and a PPG player and Carter was a two-way presence who had a 46 G season and was one of the best goal scorers in the league (in his 46 G season he was only second to Ovechkin IIRC). They also had Pronger eventually and Giroux.

Even now they still have Giroux who is easily an elite point producer about on par with Kane. Even Edmonton has guys like Hall, RNH, Yakupov, and Eberle who can put up a **** ton of points.

Almost every team has great players. Buffalo has Miller, Edmonton has those aforementioned players, we have Giroux, etc.

Like I said before, Chicago's success has a lot more to do with great management making great moves and great drafting then getting high picks. Toews and Kane definitely are a hug part of their success, but it's blatantly untrue to say they're the way they are solely because they drafted Toews and Kane with high picks.
Truth is the Hawks turned around because Bill Wirtz died and Pulford was removed by his son Rocky

Bill Wirtz and Bob Pulford are reason the franchise was in gutter and why fans turned backs on organization. No doubt in my mind if Wirtz doesn't die the Hawks would be stuck in same situation as Oilers ,, Only worse (Wirtz would have traded Toews/Kane/Keith instead of signed them longterm)

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01-23-2014, 12:24 AM
  #134
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I know the Hartnell/Schenn/Simmonds line was playing well, but should Berube try Hartnell again on the top line?

Hartnell/Giroux/Voracek
Schenn/Lecavalier/Simmonds
Raffl/Couturier/Read

Can't hurt, could it?

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Old
01-23-2014, 12:29 AM
  #135
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More trouble for our defenseman in our own zone and Mason leaving rebounds in prime scoring areas.
This trend needs to turn around and turn around quickly. like before the next game. this defensive group continues to play sloppy in its own end. Mason needs to be better. again. I am getting tired of saying it.
Mason save percentage is headed near Bryzgalov territory.

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01-23-2014, 12:44 AM
  #136
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What could Mason have done different on that third goal? Really asking, because I don't know. To me it was all on the defense. I think Coburn broke his stick and Voracek gave Coburn his. And then there were two Flyers down low (Coburn and Timonen) and three Canes down low. Mason makes the save and the rebound went right to an unchecked Tlusty who made a nice, quick move.

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01-23-2014, 12:52 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
What could Mason have done different on that third goal? Really asking, because I don't know. To me it was all on the defense. I think Coburn broke his stick and Voracek gave Coburn his. And then there were two Flyers down low (Coburn and Timonen) and three Canes down low. Mason makes the save and the rebound went right to an unchecked Tlusty who made a nice, quick move.
Even the ability to get any of the Gerbe goal is still pretty damn good. It's a crazy hard move to stop.

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01-23-2014, 01:28 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
What could Mason have done different on that third goal? Really asking, because I don't know. To me it was all on the defense. I think Coburn broke his stick and Voracek gave Coburn his. And then there were two Flyers down low (Coburn and Timonen) and three Canes down low. Mason makes the save and the rebound went right to an unchecked Tlusty who made a nice, quick move.
For whatever reason tlusty was alone infront if the net but there are rebounds glore from mason and that was another one

For contrast watch bob play.

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01-23-2014, 01:36 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
What could Mason have done different on that third goal? Really asking, because I don't know. To me it was all on the defense. I think Coburn broke his stick and Voracek gave Coburn his. And then there were two Flyers down low (Coburn and Timonen) and three Canes down low. Mason makes the save and the rebound went right to an unchecked Tlusty who made a nice, quick move.
do not like Mason's rebound control. too many rebounds left in scoring areas.
I do agree the defense has been terrible in their own zone of late.

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01-23-2014, 01:45 AM
  #140
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His rebound control has been iffy for a while now

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Old
01-23-2014, 06:57 AM
  #141
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And here it is again, the single most overused and incorrect excuse used every loss, "lack of effort". I swear it's just the go-to when people aren't capable of recognizing specific problems but they want to complain too.

The loss was not a lack of effort, it was a select few players who just flat out played bad. It's not that they weren't trying, it's either that they're not skilled enough, not smart enough, not being used correctly, or maybe they just had a bad game.

Based on your last sentence there, you're just determined to blame Giroux. Clearly all common sense and logic is out the window at this point because that is one of the dumbest things I've read on here. Especially if you're trying to imply that Giroux gave no effort or was "sleep walking" through the game.
If you were happy with that effort, good for you. They continuously lost battles in both the defensive and offensive zones. There was next to no sustained pressure. Our forwards were lazy on the backcheck. I could go on and on, but I don't see it being useful. Christ, our captain and assistant captain both used the word "embarrassing" during the intermissions. At least they recognize that this was a joke performance. Whether they put their foot forward is another thing, but it's comforting to know they aren't happy and somehow trying to spin that game.

I do find it extremely ironic that my "lack of effort" is the go to excuse when you're just as guilty when you imply I'm a Giroux hater when I critique his play. He, liked the rest of the team, played like a dog tonight. You're only responses are that it's the "dumbest thing I've read" or that "logic is out the window". No real responses that target the main issue, you just attack the poster.

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01-23-2014, 07:11 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
**** this team

They are going to get annihilated when they play real teams.

Get dummied by the Islanders and Hurricanes. Laughable. And it all starts with 28. He deserves to be off Team Canada with his play.
Was the main reason the Flyers scored any goals this game..

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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
And yes, tonight with that display, even having Stamkos play alongside Giroux wouldn't have changed a single thing from a Giroux standpoint.
Stop.

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can you edit your post? we both posted at the same time saying the exact thing but i think mine is more sanctimonious and sassy. sorry
You've earned +1 internet points.

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01-23-2014, 08:02 AM
  #143
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The Flyers are just a poorly constructed team. The goaltending is average, the defense is way below average and the forwards don't have the commitment to playing a tight checking style to mask both things.

The effort is a concern and has been an issue for this team for awhile during the Holmgren era. This stems from a high roster turnover and over reliance of youth. Holmgren has mentioned numerous times that he likes to add players in the same age group together but that hasn't worked. You have no veterans in their late 20's early 30's establishing a level of accountability and work on the ice. This is all speculation but look at the veterans on this team. Hartnell, Lecavalier and Briere before him are not known for their tireless work in the defensive zone. Hartnell was receiving great press for showing up in shape this year. Why wasn't he in shape before? Giroux and Voracek, especially Voracek, were just two years ago very good two way players. Not anymore. Your defensive effort isn't suppose to lessen as you grow as a professional but maybe watching Briere all those years had an effect. Timonen is a true professional and for the most part the defense plays hard. They just don't have talent. The forwards are the ones with questionable effort. So does having a giant turnover every year with no veteran presence have an effect? I definitely think so.

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01-23-2014, 08:02 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
If you were happy with that effort, good for you. They continuously lost battles in both the defensive and offensive zones. There was next to no sustained pressure. Our forwards were lazy on the backcheck. I could go on and on, but I don't see it being useful. Christ, our captain and assistant captain both used the word "embarrassing" during the intermissions. At least they recognize that this was a joke performance. Whether they put their foot forward is another thing, but it's comforting to know they aren't happy and somehow trying to spin that game.

I do find it extremely ironic that my "lack of effort" is the go to excuse when you're just as guilty when you imply I'm a Giroux hater when I critique his play. He, liked the rest of the team, played like a dog tonight. You're only responses are that it's the "dumbest thing I've read" or that "logic is out the window". No real responses that target the main issue, you just attack the poster.
It's also not a very good argument to blame Giroux when he provided all of the team's offense last night. You can't really expect much more out him than what you got last night. (Goal, nice assist, good on faceoffs, played with a nice physical edge) There's not a single player in the world that you'll approve of with your impossible standards.

This team is struggling because the defense in atrocious, and Mason isn't playing at a level to constantly bail them out anymore. Actually, the defense is playing even worse than it was last year around this time. All three goals against could have been much easier plays on Mason if the defense had done their jobs.

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01-23-2014, 09:05 AM
  #145
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If Holmgren is back after this year or if Hextall is named GM, the priority this off season has to be fixing the defense. If it means parting with some of the offensive talent on the club, then so be it. Timonen practically has one foot out the door and the other on the threshold, Coburn is too stupid to be counted on to provide consistent play game in and game out, Grossmann is perhaps the best defender on the defensive side but his offensive game is non-existent, and Schenn and Gustafsson will never get a break under Berube. Might as well gut and cut and start from fresh with regards to the D.

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01-23-2014, 09:26 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
If you were happy with that effort, good for you. They continuously lost battles in both the defensive and offensive zones. There was next to no sustained pressure. Our forwards were lazy on the backcheck. I could go on and on, but I don't see it being useful. Christ, our captain and assistant captain both used the word "embarrassing" during the intermissions. At least they recognize that this was a joke performance. Whether they put their foot forward is another thing, but it's comforting to know they aren't happy and somehow trying to spin that game.
As I keep trying to explain, the problem isn't effort, the problem is poor play by certain players. If you can't distinguish one players performance from another then you have no idea what you're watching and you shouldn't try to comment on it. 4 or 5 players having a horrible game and making a tons of mistakes that cost the team isn't the same thing as the entire team not trying or giving enough effort, how is this so difficult to understand?



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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
I do find it extremely ironic that my "lack of effort" is the go to excuse when you're just as guilty when you imply I'm a Giroux hater when I critique his play. He, liked the rest of the team, played like a dog tonight. You're only responses are that it's the "dumbest thing I've read" or that "logic is out the window". No real responses that target the main issue, you just attack the poster.
I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say with that first sentence here, it doesn't make much sense. I also provided plenty of reasons why you're wrong, if you chose to ignore those and be ignorant that's fine, but don't pretend I'm just leaving one sentence responses calling you an idiot, anyone can go back a few pages and see how wrong you are. Giroux had a good game tonight, if you try to bash him after that it does make you see like a "Giroux hater" because it shows you're getting on him about problems that don't exist. Nobody who is looking at it realistically can honestly say that he didn't have a good game or that he didn't give 100%, obviously he's human and he might make a mistake once in a while but saying he doesn't give enough effort makes you look foolish.

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01-23-2014, 09:38 AM
  #147
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Yeh, 'lack of effort' is a ridiculous thing to blame losses on.

The two things that this team seemingly always struggle with are:

1. Effectively working the puck through the neutral zone against any team who is semi aggressive. (it has got better under Berube... though marginally.)

2. Sustained zone time.

The only time the Flyers ever get sustained zone time is when Kimmo or Streit are at the point, every other D man ****s up, (and the puck does not come round the other side) either mishandling, pinching when they should not or playing crappy passes... there were like 10 instances last night when the forwards established pressure down low, were working the gaps and causing Carolina to become disjointed... and then a D man throws the puck somewhere stupid, did not keep it in or lost a puck on the boards.

The amount of one and done attacks this team has is frustrating as hell...

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01-23-2014, 09:54 AM
  #148
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Yeah, "lack of effort" is probably the worst excuse that's ever regularly used by NHL fans. Only team it's probably true for a lot is Edmonton and that's because they have the worst and biggest losing culture in all of sports at this point probably.

This team, as mentioned astutely by others before and as I actually mentioned in the 1-9 start, is just poorly constructed. Very poorly constructed and that's on the GM. A top nine forward group that is a weird mish mash of declining veterans, star players in their prime, and developing youth that just isn't ready to be prime contributors for the most part. A D that's nothing but middling D for the most part and literally every player besides Timonen on D is only good at one end of the ice. Then just unproven and average goaltending. There's also pretty much no defensive prowess across the lineup aside from one to three of our D and like two or three of our forwards.

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01-23-2014, 10:03 AM
  #149
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Yeh, 'lack of effort' is a ridiculous thing to blame losses on.
I agree there are other reasons that this is very mediocre team but effort can be a reason for losing if it is a reference to not moving your feet, which there are a few members of the team that gets into that habit. If your aren't moving you feet, you are reaching for pucks, taking penalties, getting pucks stripped and shots blocked, and losing races to loose pucks. Having a crappy blueline is the main culprit, no debate but not moving your feet is a thing that can get you beat against harder working teams, like Columbus.

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01-23-2014, 10:08 AM
  #150
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I can't really even blame Berube. On D, what is he going to do? put in Gill & Gus? He has 0 options.

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