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Who is the worst to win the Hart Trophy?

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Old
01-23-2014, 02:15 PM
  #76
kaiser matias
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
Every Hart winner has made the Hall of Fame but that streak will end with Theodore, so there's your answer.
Al Rollins and Tommy Anderson would certainly be glad to hear they have been elected to the Hall of Fame.

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01-23-2014, 02:28 PM
  #77
guzzy
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Originally Posted by Seth Rollins View Post
No. Theodore had great stats on a terrible Montreal team.
He still wasn't better than Iginla that year though. Even their peers said Iginla should have one.

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01-23-2014, 02:28 PM
  #78
Melnyks Mirage
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Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
I just remembered.

The answer is undeniably Al Rollins.
Rollins basically was the only saving grace on that team. If he hadn't been there they would have allowed 40-50 more goals against. He wasn't close to the worst Hart winner...

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01-23-2014, 02:29 PM
  #79
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Post-expansion:

Jose Theodore.
Joe Thornton.
Martin St. Louis.
Corey Perry.
Henrik Sedin.

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01-23-2014, 02:34 PM
  #80
Terry Yake
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i'd love to know how/why al rollins won the hart after a season in which he went 12-47 with a 3.23 GAA

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01-23-2014, 02:44 PM
  #81
Shankill Butcher
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Comparing Sedin's production without Daniel to Crosby is cherry picking for the sake of your own argument.

"Oh Sedin kept up a point per game pace and picked up the goal scoring slack without legitimate first liners? Let me just compare him to the only player on the planet that would do better."

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01-23-2014, 02:52 PM
  #82
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Terry Yake View Post
i'd love to know how/why al rollins won the hart after a season in which he went 12-47 with a 3.23 GAA
It's definitely a weird one, seems like voters taking the most valuable to his team angle too far. He was only voted as the third best goalie in all-star team voting the same year.

Chicago was 6/6 in goals for with 19 less goals scored than 5th in the league. They were also 6/6 in goals against but with 60 more goals allowed than 5th place. Despite those awful numbers, Rollins got some praise while Chicago's skaters were criticized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Leader-Post; Kelly best player, Patrick maintains - Lynn likes Rollins too (12/17/1953)
Patrick made another surprising observation by maning Al Rollins of the last-place Chicago Black Hawks as the league's best goalie.

''Rollins dosn't get nearly the protection that the others get. But he's looked great against us and with a better defence he'd be right up there with Harry Lumley (Toronto) and Terry Sawchuk (Detroit).''
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Herald; Al Rollins Still Rated Main Cog (10/13/1954)
Angular Al Rollins of Chicago Black Hawks probably won't be seeing as many black spots in front of his National Hockey League net this winter.

Al's lot as goaltender for the Hawks may be improving. If he had time to count the pucks opposing players shot at him last season the figure would of been enormous. The fact that 213 got past him would have demanded a bravery citation in any other business.

In three games so far this season Rollins hasn't had too much to do. He allowed nine goals in two defeats and a tie but can't be blamed for them because the Chicago defence still isn't up to scratch.

Without the 29-year-old native of Vanguard, Sask., the Hawks would be rushed right out of the rink. Big Al proved long ago that the Hawks made a good trade when they grabbed him from the Toronto Maple Leafs just before the 1952-53 season started.
these are pulled from this profile on Rollins if anyone wants to read more

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Old
01-23-2014, 02:54 PM
  #83
Seth Rollins
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Originally Posted by guzzy View Post
He still wasn't better than Iginla that year though. Even their peers said Iginla should have one.
Iginla didn't single-handedly help a lottery team make the playoffs. Theodore did. The Hart is supposed to go to the player most valuable to his team, and Theodore was by far the biggest example of that in 01-02. If Calgary had made the playoffs that year, I could see more of a case being made for Iginla.

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01-23-2014, 03:04 PM
  #84
capebretoncanadien
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Definitely Theo career wise but he was otherworldly good during that season and definitely deserved the trophy.

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01-23-2014, 03:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Dirty Dan View Post
ovechkin in 2013, 23 goals in 23 last games in a shortened season to win. perry did better
stealing the Richard AND almost singlehandedly carrying his team on his back the last half of the season, from out of the playoffs to winning the SouthLeast isn't too shabby. If that doesn't scream most valuable to his team, nothing does.

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01-23-2014, 03:12 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Shankill Butcher View Post
Comparing Sedin's production without Daniel to Crosby is cherry picking for the sake of your own argument.

"Oh Sedin kept up a point per game pace and picked up the goal scoring slack without legitimate first liners? Let me just compare him to the only player on the planet that would do better."
He's being compared to one of the two players that season he had no business beating out for a hart. Why would it not make sense to make that comparison?

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01-23-2014, 03:18 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
A point per game is a tear? His production dropped like a stone without Daniel. Crosby was dominant the whole season with the highest scoring winger being Bill Guerin.
Crosby actually played some of his worst hockey of his career at the beginning of that season. He was right around a ppg through 27 games that year. He went on an absolute tear the rest of the way, but he was definitely not dominant all year. In fact it didn't look like he was gonna break 100 points until he just went crazy against the Islanders in the last week of the season. If Ovechkin didn't miss 10 games he would have won it by a huge margin.

Back on topic, I think either Theodore or Perry are the ones that really stand out. I'd go with Theodore, because while Perry may never match that season, he's still been a pretty elite winger otherwise.

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Old
01-23-2014, 03:19 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Seth Rollins View Post
Iginla didn't single-handedly help a lottery team make the playoffs. Theodore did. The Hart is supposed to go to the player most valuable to his team, and Theodore was by far the biggest example of that in 01-02. If Calgary had made the playoffs that year, I could see more of a case being made for Iginla.
This article was written for the benefit of people like yourself.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2014/0...al-definition/

Quote:
I was thinking a little bit about the Hart Trophy last night, and I came to this conclusion: if you’re one of the people who actually uses the most literal definition of the award - “to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team” - then you’re rendering it a pretty pointless award.
...
Quote:
“Player adjudged most valuable to his team” can mean two things. The lunatic interpretation is “Player whose share of the total value of his team is greatest.” This is the one people are adopting. The sane people interpretation is “Player who provides the most value to his team” with “value” being simply a raw counting number, not factoring in how much total value his team has. I mean, on the criteria these people are explicitly adopting, Zack Stortini could win the Hart, if you put him on a team with 19 mes. “Well, that team was the worst team in NHL history, but Stortini is undeniably miles ahead of all those Dellows.”

If you actually want to go “Guy who is basically the best player on his team by the largest margin,” then hell, you can start getting really weird with your choice. Buffalo’s brutal, but without Ryan Miller they would be a la-ha-ha-haughingstock. Jiri Hudler has almost twice as many points as the next-best player on Calgary. Ben Bishop is dragging the Lightning to playoffs. There’s that bizarre idea of value everywhere.

So my point is, after that long walk, let’s say the Hart was for “value provided to team,” literally. What would be the point of that? What are we trying to identify? The worst team who had the most disproportionately great player? That’s just a luck award for one of the league’s best players. It would be pointless.

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01-23-2014, 03:29 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
This article was written for the benefit of people like yourself.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2014/0...al-definition/
Right. The phrase is "provided the most value to his team," not "provided the most of his team's value." Then a good player on a bad team would win every year and we rename it the Al Rollins Trophy.

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01-23-2014, 03:38 PM
  #90
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What we have here, folks, is a History Board question.

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01-23-2014, 03:43 PM
  #91
How Ya Drouin
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Definitely Theodore. If we're talking career wise.

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01-23-2014, 03:43 PM
  #92
MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Rollins View Post
Iginla didn't single-handedly help a lottery team make the playoffs. Theodore did. The Hart is supposed to go to the player most valuable to his team, and Theodore was by far the biggest example of that in 01-02. If Calgary had made the playoffs that year, I could see more of a case being made for Iginla.
Man, Craig Conroy would have made the Habs SO much better that year. Flames fans whine... But the Habs 1st center that year would have been their faceoff specialist and otherwise their 3rd C.

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01-23-2014, 04:03 PM
  #93
Chalupa Batman
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Originally Posted by How Ya Drouin View Post
Definitely Theodore. If we're talking career wise.
Have you looked at Rollins' resume?

If the answer is Theodore, it sure as hell isn't definite.

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01-23-2014, 04:11 PM
  #94
Sprague Cleghorn
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
Every Hart winner has made the Hall of Fame but that streak will end with Theodore, so there's your answer.
All but three of them (only players eligible for induction into HHOF):

Tommy Anderson: 1941-42
Al Rollins: 1953-54
Eric Lindros: 1994-95

Out of the guys not currently eligible that it's uncertain if they make it or not:

Jose Theodore: 2001-02
Henrik Sedin: 2009-10
Corey Perry: 2010-11

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01-23-2014, 04:21 PM
  #95
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Rollins View Post
Iginla didn't single-handedly help a lottery team make the playoffs. Theodore did. The Hart is supposed to go to the player most valuable to his team, and Theodore was by far the biggest example of that in 01-02. If Calgary had made the playoffs that year, I could see more of a case being made for Iginla.
Didn't Theodore have a great record against weak teams in that Hart year?

As it was his Hart still is very weak IMO.

Iggy had the "better" year that year IMO with 52 goals 11 more than 2nd place 41.

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01-23-2014, 04:24 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Jose Theodore. Only won cuz its Montreal.
Theodore deserved the Hart over Iginla. Iginla started the year hot (leading the league in points and goals by a good margin), then slumped and Calgary was eliminated from the playoffs very early. Once Calgary was eliminated, they just started force-feeding Iglina the puck to get him to 50 goals, since they had nothing else to play for.

If anything, Roy should have finished ahead of Iginla too.

2001-02 was just a real crappy year for forwards.

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01-23-2014, 04:26 PM
  #97
MXD
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Didn't Theodore have a great record against weak teams in that Hart year?

As it was his Hart still is very weak IMO.

Iggy had the "better" year that year IMO with 52 goals 11 more than 2nd place 41.
..having a great record against crappy teams when you play for a crappy team shouldn't be considered a detriment.

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01-23-2014, 04:33 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
..having a great record against crappy teams when you play for a crappy team shouldn't be considered a detriment.
maybe not it can get over rated but I don't have the actual facts on it just remembering reading something about it.

if it was true it might be a bit like AO scoring in his own division last year, not that AO deserved the Hart over Sid in any case IMO.

i'll defer to Batman as to Jose though as goaltending isn't me forte.

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01-23-2014, 04:35 PM
  #99
Chalupa Batman
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Didn't Theodore have a great record against weak teams in that Hart year?
In total for the season, Theodore's average opponent was 0.14 goals below average (so essentially average).

His average opponent had a shooting percentage 2.6% (note: percent, not percentage points) below league average.

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/theodore.html

And, in descending order of the "strength" of the opponent (determined by the power ratings that I develop), here are Theodore's records versus opponent:


TEAMWLT
Detroit010
San Jose100
St. Louis010
Colorado001
Vancouver010
Ottawa211
Toronto013
Edmonton010
Los Angeles100
Philadelphia210
Boston120
Phoenix001
New Jersey110
NY Islanders201
Chicago010
Dallas001
Buffalo040
Carolina111
Montreal000
Calgary100
Anaheim000
Washington310
Nashville110
Minnesota100
NY Rangers040
Tampa Bay201
Pittsburgh400
Florida220
Columbus200
Atlanta300

Against the top fifteen (Detroit through Chicago), Theodore was 10-11-7. Against the bottom fifteen, Theodore was 20-13-3.

I haven't done a rigorous test, but this seems like it would be about typical.

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Old
01-23-2014, 04:52 PM
  #100
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Jose Theodore. Only won cuz its Montreal.
Are you making the argument that Montreal wouldn't have been a playoff team in the Western Conference or that voters are more inclined to vote for Montreal players? Because I'd say it's just as likely that Iginla received a boost for being an Olympian.

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