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Idea: How To Fix The Reffing

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Old
01-28-2004, 02:24 AM
  #51
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I said according to his logic, not mine.

I won't bother commenting on your description of Game Management.
Truth hurts, eh.

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Old
01-28-2004, 05:52 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Truth hurts, eh.
I don't know...you tell me.

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Old
01-28-2004, 07:34 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Noone ever said ref's needed to be perfect. Noone expects that. But it is fine to expect a certain level of competence which alot of fans, justifiably, feel is not happening in todays NHL.
Of course they do. Officials make hundreds of calls a game, almost all of them correct, yet fans, players, and coaches do nothing but ***** and moan every single game about the few bad or missed calls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
(And poor officiating is a convenient, built-in excuse for a few fans when the hometeam loses. Personally, I've been watching the game forever, and my team has never lost or won a game because of a ref. That's too easy a way to deflect responsibility.
I figure that makes about 3 of us that feel this way.

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Old
01-28-2004, 08:18 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Of course they do. Officials make hundreds of calls a game, almost all of them correct, yet fans, players, and coaches do nothing but ***** and moan every single game about the few bad or missed calls.
Where is your proof that they make hundereds of correct calls a game. I think that is an exorbanent amount, which is highly inflated. And of course i disagree with that assumption.
That being said, even if they DO make many good calls per game, there is no way you could convince me that they should be alloed to make a FEW bad or missed calls a game.
This is the big show, the highest level and the officiating is not up to par with the level of the players.


Here is an example of incompetence. And mind you, I would like people who saw the incident to respond if they will.

WARNING: WHINING coming up.

Tonight was another hidious event and is a prime example of why something needs to be done.
They talk about game management, which tonights example of such, was a poor excuse.
Rico Fata should have been careful with what he said, yet the linesman made a VERY poor call on an offsides, which wasn't even close, taking away a prime scoring opportunity from the Penguins. He then amplified HIS mistake by giving the Lightining a HUGE advantage by sending Fata to the penalty box.
All of this would never had occured if the linesman had SIMPLY, done what he is PAID to do. He failed. And failing to make a simple call changed the course of a game.
In this instance you DO in fact take the game out of the players hands.
It was blatant incompetence from a paid professional, who amplified his mistake by taking the game out of the players hands.
You all saw it.
The Orpik phantom slash was the exact same thing. They gave the Lightining TWO lengthy five on three power plays, because of sheer incompetence.
I am sorry for all of the officiating apologists who are sick of the whining, but as it is for almost every fan in this league, the frusteration is mounting.
I am almost at the point where I do not find watching hockey enjoyable because it is so frusterating. No fan, or consumer should have to deal with that. We pay good money to watch professional atheletes play a sport we love to watch. Is it to much to ask for the games to be called in a fair and consistent manner? So that the teams are allowed to win based on thier merits?
Those calls made the Penguins play from a position of strength (a one goal lead) to playing from a position of weakness (down by one).


Now, before you make statements like the Penguins should have killed the penalties (this IS the Pens we are talking about after all) or Fata shouldn't have opened his mouth (which I somewhat agree with, keep in mind that none of this should have even occured if a paid league official was competent in the first place.

You cannot achieve a desired level of respectability as a league,when your officials aren't held to the highest standard.

And regardless of what anyone who thinks the officiating is adequate(let alone GOOD) says, differing sets of rules for differing officials is never a good thing. It is inconsistent which leads to incompetence.

My opinion on the subject isn't important in the least bit. Yet when many great hockey minds at many different times voice thier displeasure then there is something to be said for it.
And when the sheer magnitude of intelligent fans voice thiers I can say for certainty that it isn't something that should be dismissed as just "whining".

And when the apologists for officials use that as an excuse, it holds little merit, simply because of the fact that the numbers of dissatisfied consumers alone, leads one to believe that all of us cannot be ignorant, and that at the very LEAST some of us know what we are talking about. And some of us are intelligent enough to see that there is a great problem with officials.

It isnt that we "dont get it". All of us arent that stupid. It is that we DO actually get it and aren't satisfied by the status quo.

The people on the other side of this argument feel that the ref's are doing thier job correctly.

Well some of us feel that either they aren't or that the league should change the description of what is the correct way to officiate a game.

Sorry so long but I hope some of you took the time to read this rant.

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Old
01-28-2004, 08:30 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Yes, I do agree that the quality of officiating can be improved. (Need to note that simply getting "better refs" is not the answer, IMO.)
Im glad we can agree on that. What, in your opinion, would be a correct answer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Where I depart from you and others is in the level of this problem.

Likewise, I personally have a large issue with "Big Brother in the Skybox" calling the games. IMO, one can make significant strides in improving the quality of officiating with modest changes.

Finally, and separately, none of this will ever address the perceived injustices that a few persecuted :p fans feel necessary to air here ad neaseum, er, nightly. That's their right, and I acknowledge as much. Likewise, it's my right to politely suggest that they toughen up a bit and accept that life (and officiating) is sometimes unfair. (And poor officiating is a convenient, built-in excuse for a few fans when the hometeam loses. Personally, I've been watching the game forever, and my team has never lost or won a game because of a ref. That's too easy a way to deflect responsibility. I recognize that you have no stated team bias in this discussion; I'm speaking in broader terms here.)
I understand, although I bit**ed about the officials in my teams loss tonight, and justifiably so.
I do not however think they were the sole cause, I am not stupid enough to believe that. The outcome of a game cannot ever,IMO, be put squarley on the shoulders of an official. However, the games should be fair, and an official does dictate those circumstances.
I can easily dismiss a fan saying a loss is a refs fault just as you can. And i can agree with you on that as well.
Yet still, that does not deflect from the problem that the game COULD have been very poorly officiated putting a given team at a disadvantage.
The two isuues are seperate IMO.
One issue is the fan blaming a loss on an official. Thats a tough pill to swallow.
The second, and most important issue (and the one I am trying to present) is that the game is poorly officiated.
I am not here defending people who blame officials for losses, rather blaming officials for doing a poor job, regardless of the games outcome.
Like I said, the two are seperate issues, and one is extremley important to the health of this league. The other is mere fodder for fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
I have suggested to fellow-moderators that a separate "Ref-Bashing Complaint Board" is in order, but I'm going to have to do more lobbying before that gets consideration. :p
Not a bad idea. At the very least it is good to have intelligent dialogue on the matter, which always makes message boards that much better.

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Old
01-28-2004, 03:35 PM
  #56
Darth Vitale
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The solution to the bad reffing is simple: the league needs to show its teeth. This season is a loss as far as reffing goes because all the habits have been ingrained already, so the playoffs are the place you start.

The league should sit down for a couple days with the refs (all of them) and say: "here is how we want these playoffs called...watch out for x, don't call y unless z, etc... here are some examples on video of what we mean. Call contests this way from GAME 1, every game. Are there any questions? Good, we will meet again before the start of the 2004/2005 season to make more adjustments. If we find after reviewing your performances, that you are not calling games the way we want, you can plan on reffing in the AHL next year. Have a pleasant day."

Or put another way: the refs are not now in any way accountable for their performance on ice.

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Old
01-28-2004, 05:52 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy
Or put another way: the refs are not now in any way accountable for their performance on ice.
I would like to see you try to explain this.

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Old
01-28-2004, 06:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I would like to see you try to explain this.
I can explain it quite easily: Paul Stewart is now in charge of training incoming officials.

Yep, the same Paul Stewart that just last year threw the puck on a face-off to a Canucks defenseman because he wasn't happy about something Eric Boguniecki had said. So, instead of being reprimanded for his extremely unprofessional actions, he was rewarded with a job after retirement.

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Old
01-30-2004, 10:47 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Where is your proof that they make hundereds of correct calls a game. I think that is an exorbanent amount, which is highly inflated. And of course i disagree with that assumption.
The linesmen *alone* count for hundreds of calls a game. Every single time a team enters the zone, a call has to be made, either blow it offside or allow play to continue. Every single long pass, check for two line offsides. Every long clear, check for icing and deciding whether to waive the icing if the player could have played the puck or the goalie left his crease.

The refs do exactly the same thing. Every single body check has to be decided if it's charging, etc. Every single time a player puts his stick near an opponent, it has to be decided if it's hooking, high sticking etc. Every single instance is a judgement call the officials have to make.

You prove my point completely by challenging the number. Almost every single one of those decisions is done correctly and *you never notice them*. All you notice is the offside call where it took a scoring chance away from your favourite team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
That being said, even if they DO make many good calls per game, there is no way you could convince me that they should be alloed to make a FEW bad or missed calls a game.
This is the big show, the highest level and the officiating is not up to par with the level of the players.
I never realised goalies were perfect. I see them give up goals all the time. Defensemen make poor passes and give up the puck constantly. Forwards miss empty nets. Forwards miss their backcheck and allow goals against. But this is the big show, surely they must be perfect, if that's the standard you expect of refs?

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Old
01-30-2004, 10:52 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
I can explain it quite easily: Paul Stewart is now in charge of training incoming officials.

Yep, the same Paul Stewart that just last year threw the puck on a face-off to a Canucks defenseman because he wasn't happy about something Eric Boguniecki had said. So, instead of being reprimanded for his extremely unprofessional actions, he was rewarded with a job after retirement.
One, you don't know that he wasn't fined for that.

Two, why should one questionable action mean he isn't qualified for his job now?

Paul Stewart is widely respected among the players.

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Old
01-30-2004, 11:25 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
The linesmen *alone* count for hundreds of calls a game. Every single time a team enters the zone, a call has to be made, either blow it offside or allow play to continue. Every single long pass, check for two line offsides. Every long clear, check for icing and deciding whether to waive the icing if the player could have played the puck or the goalie left his crease.

The refs do exactly the same thing. Every single body check has to be decided if it's charging, etc. Every single time a player puts his stick near an opponent, it has to be decided if it's hooking, high sticking etc. Every single instance is a judgement call the officials have to make.

You prove my point completely by challenging the number. Almost every single one of those decisions is done correctly and *you never notice them*. All you notice is the offside call where it took a scoring chance away from your favourite team.
Yet these are calls any untrained person with a good eye can make while knowing elementary rules. I fail to grasp the reasoning why that makes them competent. Granted there are tough calls in a game, yet the "hundereds" you allude to are gimme's that a child can call.
There is no "judgement call" on a vast majority of these. Especially on the linesmens part, who,BTW, I feel screw up just as much as officials.

I've proved no point of yours. You are taking out parts of a situation and using them to bolster your argument without mentioning the entire picture....

And yes, I notice them in every game, in every period no matter the team I am watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
I never realised goalies were perfect. I see them give up goals all the time. Defensemen make poor passes and give up the puck constantly. Forwards miss empty nets. Forwards miss their backcheck and allow goals against. But this is the big show, surely they must be perfect, if that's the standard you expect of refs?
Actually, if a defenseman continuoulsy turns over the puck, continues to make poor passes and a forward continues to miss his back check, he is sent to the minors until he is fit to play, or he is benched until he proves his ability to correct this problem.
Meaning his inconsistency makes him incompetent to play at the highest level (either ever, or for this moment in his career).
That is the same way I see the officials.
As for a goalie letting in a goal, most of the time it is due to the skill of the opposing team rather than a lack of competence on the goalies part. And if it is shown to be a lack of competence on his part, once again, he isn't in the Big Leagues very long.

Your analogy fails to show that officials are competent by comparison or that mistakes on a consistent basis are excusable by comparison.

One other thing. Don't be presumptious in assuming I meant or said officials must be perfect. I said they must be competent, which is far down the latter from perfect.


Last edited by stardog: 01-30-2004 at 11:37 AM.
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