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Who is the worst to win the Hart Trophy?

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01-23-2014, 06:02 PM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
In total for the season, Theodore's average opponent was 0.14 goals below average (so essentially average).

His average opponent had a shooting percentage 2.6% (note: percent, not percentage points) below league average.

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/theodore.html

And, in descending order of the "strength" of the opponent (determined by the power ratings that I develop), here are Theodore's records versus opponent:


TEAMWLT
Detroit010
San Jose100
St. Louis010
Colorado001
Vancouver010
Ottawa211
Toronto013
Edmonton010
Los Angeles100
Philadelphia210
Boston120
Phoenix001
New Jersey110
NY Islanders201
Chicago010
Dallas001
Buffalo040
Carolina111
Montreal000
Calgary100
Anaheim000
Washington310
Nashville110
Minnesota100
NY Rangers040
Tampa Bay201
Pittsburgh400
Florida220
Columbus200
Atlanta300

Against the top fifteen (Detroit through Chicago), Theodore was 10-11-7. Against the bottom fifteen, Theodore was 20-13-3.

I haven't done a rigorous test, but this seems like it would be about typical.
thanks, it was something I heard a long time ago and having a better record against poorer teams does make alot of sense.

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01-23-2014, 06:22 PM
  #102
fly4apuckguy
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I have to go with Theodore.

Ovechkin last year was a close second.

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01-23-2014, 06:40 PM
  #103
MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
In total for the season, Theodore's average opponent was 0.14 goals below average (so essentially average).

His average opponent had a shooting percentage 2.6% (note: percent, not percentage points) below league average.

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/theodore.html

And, in descending order of the "strength" of the opponent (determined by the power ratings that I develop), here are Theodore's records versus opponent:


TEAMWLT
Detroit010
San Jose100
St. Louis010
Colorado001
Vancouver010
Ottawa211
Toronto013
Edmonton010
Los Angeles100
Philadelphia210
Boston120
Phoenix001
New Jersey110
NY Islanders201
Chicago010
Dallas001
Buffalo040
Carolina111
Montreal000
Calgary100
Anaheim000
Washington310
Nashville110
Minnesota100
NY Rangers040
Tampa Bay201
Pittsburgh400
Florida220
Columbus200
Atlanta300

Against the top fifteen (Detroit through Chicago), Theodore was 10-11-7. Against the bottom fifteen, Theodore was 20-13-3.

I haven't done a rigorous test, but this seems like it would be about typical.

Bad teams tend to have bad records against good teams....

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01-23-2014, 06:48 PM
  #104
Chalupa Batman
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Bad teams tend to have bad records against good teams....
That was my point, yes.

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01-23-2014, 08:41 PM
  #105
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I would not be surprised if Theodore, Perry or Anderson were deemed the least worthy Hart trophy winners.

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01-23-2014, 10:15 PM
  #106
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If Perry keeps up his current pace on the season his Hart will look less bad, and from a career perspective he's certainly weaker than normal but could very well become a legit Hall of Famer when all is said and done.

Rollins seems like a good answer but Ted Kennedy's Hart is another one that is often maligned.

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01-23-2014, 10:37 PM
  #107
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Jose Theodore. Had a great Hart winning season but other than that his career was pretty much less than par.

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01-23-2014, 10:43 PM
  #108
Chalupa Batman
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Jose Theodore. Had a great Hart winning season but other than that his career was pretty much less than par.
I'll argue that Al Rollins' Hart-winning season was worse than Theodore's, and the remainder of Rollins' career was worse than the remainder of Theodore's. I'll also argue that it's not close.

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01-23-2014, 11:21 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I'll argue that Al Rollins' Hart-winning season was worse than Theodore's, and the remainder of Rollins' career was worse than the remainder of Theodore's. I'll also argue that it's not close.
Ya, poor old Al. Goes from a Cup winner and defensively tight team in the Leafs to the mess in Chicago. Despite the Hawks only winning something like 12 games the year he won the Hart, awarded the trophy as without him in the crease the scores wouldve been double digit. So he wins that but then gets into it with Tommy Ivan, and with Glenn Hall on the way BAM! Sent to the minors, WHL, where essentially he remains for good but for a 10 game stint with the bottom feeding Rangers in 60 or 61.

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01-24-2014, 01:17 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I have to go with Theodore.

Ovechkin last year was a close second.
I think Perry and Rollins also go behind Ovechkin.

Although Perry's year is almost identical in stats. They are pretty close being tied, IMO.

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01-24-2014, 01:44 AM
  #111
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Jagr scored twice as many goals in 2006, the hart should have been his.

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01-24-2014, 02:52 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I'll argue that Al Rollins' Hart-winning season was worse than Theodore's, and the remainder of Rollins' career was worse than the remainder of Theodore's. I'll also argue that it's not close.
Al Rollins continued to be good, NHL just wasn't a 30 team league at the time.

I nominate Tom Anderson.

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01-24-2014, 04:48 AM
  #113
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This thread needs more Buddy O'Connor.

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01-24-2014, 04:58 AM
  #114
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Easily Perry.

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01-24-2014, 07:10 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Al Rollins continued to be good, NHL just wasn't a 30 team league at the time.
You've got a weird definition of "good".

Admittedly, he was one of the goaltenders in a six-team league, but given the options that we now know to be freely available to owners at the time, that seems to be a result of bad decision making on Chicago's part.

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01-24-2014, 10:22 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I'll argue that Al Rollins' Hart-winning season was worse than Theodore's, and the remainder of Rollins' career was worse than the remainder of Theodore's. I'll also argue that it's not close.
From what I see, pretty much this. Rollins' numbers are almost comical. Did all those legends take a year off or something?

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01-24-2014, 10:55 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Jagr scored twice as many goals in 2006, the hart should have been his.
With 96 assists in 2005-06, Thornton posted the equivalent of a 70+ goal season. When Ovechkin flirted with such a goal-scoring pace for 20-25 games this season people were lining up to give him the Hart Trophy. Thornton also benefited from the recency effect by finishing strong to the season and passing Jagr for the Art Ross in the last couple of games. Overall, Thornton's Hart Trophy in 2005-06 was a worthy honor, although Jagr had a strong case (yet two people cannot win).

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01-24-2014, 11:16 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
From what I see, pretty much this. Rollins' numbers are almost comical. Did all those legends take a year off or something?
He shouldn't have won the Hart but my guess is that he stood out more as most valuable player than other goalies since there were literally nothing else to brag about on that team while other teams had 2-4 players who could win it. I would've given it to Sawchuk myself or Lumley.

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01-24-2014, 11:27 AM
  #119
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FWIW, we gave Rollins serious consideration for the top-40 goalies list. He was 45th on the aggregate list and effectively 42nd on the final list.

We discussed him extensively here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1319107
Summary: Rollins was definitely a good enough goalie to play in a 6-team NHL longer than he did, as a lower-end starter option along the lines of a Lumley or Worsley. But he fell out with Chicago management, and was replaced and banished to the WHL. He ended up suing the Blackhawks for taking active steps to block him from returning to the NHL to continue his career.


Theodore was 78th on the aggregate list.

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01-24-2014, 01:23 PM
  #120
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The reasoning being put forward toward defending Theodore doesn't really go toward what the original post asked.

It's not "who had the most-illegitimate Hart win in a specific year," but "who was the worst player to win a Hart."

Theodore was a thoroughly average starting goaltender throughout the course of his career. Perry, Iginla, Ovechkin...tough to call any of them "average" top 6 forwards.

There still might be a worse player than Theodore to win the Hart, but that he may have deserved it the year he did win (I don't and didn't think he deserved it) is not a disqualifier from his being the answer to the OP.

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01-24-2014, 01:42 PM
  #121
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Al Rollins

This is slightly OT sorry.

I think that there might be mistake regarding Al Rollins in Legends of hockey page. Page says that he was loaned to Rangers by Blackhawks (via Winnipeg). Actually he was likely a free from Chicago after 58-59. Winnipeg Warriors bought him then. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...3237%2C3966300 He was loaned to Rangers by Winnipeg for Ray Mikulan. After the season Rangers offered him a contract but he declined (so I guess they were ready to buy him from Winnipeg). Then Boston Bruins wanted him and he was traded there by Winnipeg for Harry Lumley. Nobody informed Al Rollins about that trade and he decided to retire. There is no mention about that trade either on his page. Harry Lumley played in Winnipeg in 60-61 season.

It doesn´t really change much. There seemed to be lot of interest for Rollins even at the end of his career.

Contract offer from Rangers and the trade to Bruins
The Montreal Gazette - Sep 22, 1960
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...3910%2C3876158

Dink Carrols column about two goalie system where he mentions about Rollins to Lumley trade.
The Montreal Gazette - Sep 27, 1960
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6108%2C4749967


Last edited by Sanf: 01-24-2014 at 02:01 PM.
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01-24-2014, 01:47 PM
  #122
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I don't think Ovechkin winning last year was necessarily a bad choice. Perhaps Crosby could and should have, but Ovechkin took a lackluster team and catapulted them into a division winner. Remember, the Hart was originally intended for the player most valuable to his team, not the best player in the league. I'm sure everybody, including the voters, each have their own definition which adds to the confusion of the award. Without Ovechkin, Washington would have missed the playoffs. Without Crosby, I say the Pens still make it.

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01-24-2014, 02:02 PM
  #123
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
I think that there might be mistake regarding Al Rollins in Legends of hockey page. Page says that he was loaned to Rangers by Blackhawks (via Winnipeg). Actually he was likely a free from Chicago after 58-59. Winnipeg Warriors bought him then.

That would make more sense considering Chicago had done everything they could to crush his career prior to then. A change of heart seems unlikely.

Quote:
It doesn´t really change much. There seem to be lot of interest for Rollins even at the end of his career.
It reinforces that Rollins was very much a viable goalie in a 6-team NHL, despite the way his career turned out at the hands of team managers.

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01-24-2014, 02:08 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
FWIW, we gave Rollins serious consideration for the top-40 goalies list. He was 45th on the aggregate list and effectively 42nd on the final list.

We discussed him extensively here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1319107
Summary: Rollins was definitely a good enough goalie to play in a 6-team NHL longer than he did, as a lower-end starter option along the lines of a Lumley or Worsley. But he fell out with Chicago management, and was replaced and banished to the WHL. He ended up suing the Blackhawks for taking active steps to block him from returning to the NHL to continue his career.


Theodore was 78th on the aggregate list.
Tom Anderson got a single 61th place vote in the dmen project and I don't expect Buddy O'Connor to get much more in the center project.

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01-24-2014, 02:11 PM
  #125
jkrx
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
You've got a weird definition of "good".

Admittedly, he was one of the goaltenders in a six-team league, but given the options that we now know to be freely available to owners at the time, that seems to be a result of bad decision making on Chicago's part.
He fell out with the management who then had him blocked from playing in the NHL.

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