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Old
01-31-2007, 02:24 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
I think we need a lot more than Forsberg to contend.
How much did Edmonton need to contend last year?

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01-31-2007, 02:29 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
How much did Edmonton need to contend last year?
A lot more than the Rangers had, apparently.

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01-31-2007, 02:42 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
I think we need a lot more than Forsberg to contend.
That's cool, but also where we disagree..Look at the final 4 teams last year and where they were in the standings...The teams came together and each made some smart moves (and yes, guys like Recchi (man, people woulkd **** a brick here) were smart moves...

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01-31-2007, 02:52 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
That's cool, but also where we disagree..Look at the final 4 teams last year and where they were in the standings...The teams came together and each made some smart moves (and yes, guys like Recchi (man, people woulkd **** a brick here) were smart moves...
Yeah I know what happened last year, but following that logic pretty much every team but the Flyers and Kings should be loading up for the playoffs. But they won't be, because the risk/reward ratio is so great.

A good example is the trade back in 2001 or 2002, I forget, that sent Marek Zidlicky and others to Nashville for Dunham. Richter was hurt and we needed a goalie to get us into the playoffs, where anything can happen. I think Kloucek was the guy we really didn't want to trade, but the Edmonton Genius threw Zidlicky in too.

Dunham actually played well for us that first year, but didn't bring us to the playoffs...because there were too many other problems.

How good would Zidlicky look right now running our power play? The power play point is just one of our glaring weak spots.

This is the kind of trade we're famous for, the kind of trade I'd like to avoid now.

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01-31-2007, 03:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
frozenrubber doesn't like to hear that on his board.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not see our management make the same mistakes it made for the last 10 years. Enough is enough. You say you want to build for the future, stand by your damn words, or don't say anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Why? You get a 2nd C and set your 4 lines and you have a good team up front spear headed by one of the best offensive players in the game...Some of our youth is worth giving up for that shot when you have a Jagr, a top lie, Shanny and lundqvist....All depends on the cost...

As for future top line talents, I don't think we have any...That's where FA will come in again..Just being realistic.,,
C'mon Larry, you're a very sensible Ranger fan, I'm sure that you can see that we need more than a 2nd line center to be a legitimate cup contender.

We need shutdown forwards. Betts, Ward, Hollweg, Ortmeyer, Cullen... they're not shutdown forwards. They're not players that you match up against the opposition's top forwards in a checking role. With the exception of Cullen, these are energy players who really can't score, and are fringe NHL'ers at best. Do you ever wonder why we get scored on so much when these guys are on the ice? Because they can't shut down the opposition's top players. They're not defensively adequate. There is too much being asked of these guys. A championship team would have these guys STRICTLY as 4th liners, possibly even 13th and 14th forwards.

We also need 2 or 3 top 4 defenders, one of them being a #1, or something very close to it. Fedor Tyutin WILL NOT CUT IT AS OUR CURRENT #1. This defense is outplayed more often than not, and that's due to the fact that again, we have a bunch of fringe NHL'ers put together.

We need forwards in our top 6 that CONSISTENTLY BACKCHECK, and have a clue of what they're doing when they're back there. So no, Jagr fans, he doesn't fit this description. Aside from Shanahan, we don't have a player in the top-6 that consistently backchecks. We need skilled forwards who are more defensively responsible. You're not going to win playing run and gun hockey with players who have little or no desire to help out in their own end, because that's the only way the Rangers will be able to win.

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I think we need a lot more than Forsberg to contend.
Thank you.

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01-31-2007, 03:13 PM
  #81
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The biggest problem, is that NY knew last season they needed a 2nd line C, and a stay at home physical D-man, and they did nothing to get one. Now is not the time to try and pick up old, injured scraps. If a good is there, make the trade, if not wait for the summer.

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01-31-2007, 03:15 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post

We also need 2 or 3 top 4 defenders, one of them being a #1, or something very close to it. Fedor Tyutin WILL NOT CUT IT AS OUR CURRENT #1. This defense is outplayed more often than not, and that's due to the fact that again, we have a bunch of fringe NHL'ers put together.

Totally agree. I like Tyutin a lot, I hope he has another ten solid years here. I can't believe Sather resisted the urge to trade him for a Jeremy Roenick.

He's a solid 3-4 defender, but he's NOT a number one. We don't have a number one or two defenseman. Tyutin and Ward are a solid 3-4, maybe Roszival too. Malik is a number seven if I've ever seen one.

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01-31-2007, 03:18 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Yeah I know what happened last year, but following that logic pretty much every team but the Flyers and Kings should be loading up for the playoffs. But they won't be, because the risk/reward ratio is so great.

A good example is the trade back in 2001 or 2002, I forget, that sent Marek Zidlicky and others to Nashville for Dunham. Richter was hurt and we needed a goalie to get us into the playoffs, where anything can happen. I think Kloucek was the guy we really didn't want to trade, but the Edmonton Genius threw Zidlicky in too.

Dunham actually played well for us that first year, but didn't bring us to the playoffs...because there were too many other problems.

How good would Zidlicky look right now running our power play? The power play point is just one of our glaring weak spots.

This is the kind of trade we're famous for, the kind of trade I'd like to avoid now.
Who's saying load up or sell the farm? you make a smart trade or two and it can have huge impacts....All depends on the cost....And I just don't think we heve to keep every redundant kid and draft pick around if we have a chance to go a few rounds like flawewed teams did last year..

And, seriously, that example means nothing to me because I think this team is much better and every trade is not the same..

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01-31-2007, 03:20 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by shoothepuck View Post
The biggest problem, is that NY knew last season they needed a 2nd line C, and a stay at home physical D-man, and they did nothing to get one. Now is not the time to try and pick up old, injured scraps. If a good is there, make the trade, if not wait for the summer.
Exactly why I screamed against Cullen...and your last sentence is all i've been saying...But so man people just want to say.."Eff it, we suck, play the kids"...Sorry, not into quitting and the kids aren't that good or ready yet (except for Callahan)..

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01-31-2007, 03:26 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not see our management make the same mistakes it made for the last 10 years. Enough is enough. You say you want to build for the future, stand by your damn words, or don't say anything at all.



C'mon Larry, you're a very sensible Ranger fan, I'm sure that you can see that we need more than a 2nd line center to be a legitimate cup contender.

We need shutdown forwards. Betts, Ward, Hollweg, Ortmeyer, Cullen... they're not shutdown forwards. They're not players that you match up against the opposition's top forwards in a checking role. With the exception of Cullen, these are energy players who really can't score, and are fringe NHL'ers at best. Do you ever wonder why we get scored on so much when these guys are on the ice? Because they can't shut down the opposition's top players. They're not defensively adequate. There is too much being asked of these guys. A championship team would have these guys STRICTLY as 4th liners, possibly even 13th and 14th forwards.

We also need 2 or 3 top 4 defenders, one of them being a #1, or something very close to it. Fedor Tyutin WILL NOT CUT IT AS OUR CURRENT #1. This defense is outplayed more often than not, and that's due to the fact that again, we have a bunch of fringe NHL'ers put together.

We need forwards in our top 6 that CONSISTENTLY BACKCHECK, and have a clue of what they're doing when they're back there. So no, Jagr fans, he doesn't fit this description. Aside from Shanahan, we don't have a player in the top-6 that consistently backchecks. We need skilled forwards who are more defensively responsible. You're not going to win playing run and gun hockey with players who have little or no desire to help out in their own end, because that's the only way the Rangers will be able to win.



Thank you.
Personnel and coaching out two different things...

I just disagree with you, that's all...Get a decent 2nd C to play with Shanny and you have two good scoring lines not to mention a speed and bumping line with skill in COP..With Betts down on the 4th line with Ward/Holly/whoever and you have a pretty energetic and defensively reliable checking line...I'll go the POs with those......The defense is a bit more complicated and where the problems lie...We need a steady physical stay at home D-man..If one can be traded for and not touching the 5-8 prospects that are really worth something, it might be worth doing.if the price is too high, then no...But you have to give it a try (the search)

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01-31-2007, 03:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
How good would Zidlicky look right now running our power play? The power play point is just one of our glaring weak spots.

This is the kind of trade we're famous for, the kind of trade I'd like to avoid now.
Immonen is not a Zidlicky in the makening, Marek, could make a impact in the NHL, but also defenitly aren't a Zidlicky on the horizon.

Zidlicky didn't come out of nowere and suddenly became a great offensive D in the NHL. I made several posts on him over at RFC where I among other things called him one of the top 3 stickhandlers on defense in the World, long before he even had played in the NHL.

I am just a fan and had only seen Zidlicky a 2-3 times, and knew that he defenitly were among the top 20 pointmens in the World, while he played in Finland.

Sather on the other hand were willing to pay 80m per season too a bunch of extremely overrated vets, but not sling a 400k signing bonus along 1m per one way to a European rookie.

After that, among other things, Sather have stepped down, and others have taken over, especially Renneys thinking have had a big impact on how this team is run. I don't see us making thoose kind of misstakes again.

And I can gaurantee you that thoose names mentioned, Pck, Baranka, Dawes and Immonen aren't about to become great NHL players in this league over night.

Staal, Korpikoski, Dubinsky and Anisimov, and maybe Marek, but he is probably gone soone, are four players in this org who got that potential. Pyatt and Callahan IMO got Prucha potential.

My point is, prospects essentially aren't lottery tickets. I am most of the time right on these kids. I bet Renney are 1000x better on it then me.

I defenitly share the same values on this subject as you do dave, but I think there is nothing wrong on moving around some of out assets that most likly will be lost through UFA anyway, like Immonen for example.

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01-31-2007, 03:53 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not see our management make the same mistakes it made for the last 10 years. Enough is enough. You say you want to build for the future, stand by your damn words, or don't say anything at all.
Let's get out of flowery cliches and talk specifics for once. No one here wants to sell the farm. This concept that the future is oh so very rosy and perfect as long as we don't interfere/"get in the way" of anyone in Hartford is nonsense.

If you would not be willing to move an Immonen, Girardi, or Pock to make this current team better, than we just can't see eye to eye.

This is just such a frustrating precedent. Ranger fans went from years of trying to do too much to this now sit on our hands and do nothing. Both strategies are complete failures.

I can't believe there is even such static about adding a sensibly priced addition to this team. Years of pathetic teams has produced such a gunshy and afraid fanbase.

This year's team is NOT a favorite as many believed in the offseason, but with a conservative move or two, they can make some damage. Selling this team short of that chance is just the same as selling off the future.

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01-31-2007, 04:01 PM
  #88
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you'd be surprised how far a second line center could take this team. We all agree they need about one more defenseman to really be considered a contender, but at the same time, Carolina rode a rookie goalie, lost a top scorer, got some hired guns, and won the Cup. IF, the Rangers had a quality second line centerman, and Jagr was healthy, and Lundqvist looks like he did last season...then the defense woes become less apparent.
With a better 2nd line center, with a good D, I am afraid(!) that we will become the Detroit Red Wings...

My point is, I don't think we are that far from becomming a President Trophy winner. Like Detroit. But they have also been knocked out of the PO's three straight years in the first round, right? (not 100% sure if my memory serves me right on that one)

There are never any gaurantees in the PO's. Its tough. But I do wonder if we'd even be the best PO's team in the league with Joe Thornton and Scott Niedermayer on board...

On the way to a cup we would have to beat 4 very honest, very hard working teams. Somewhere along the line it just feels like we are bound to run out of gas.

Though it might just be me selling the team short. But if you look at Carolina's roster last season, Staal, Stillman, Whitney, Cullen, Adam's x2, Cole among others, they were led by players that are very tough to fight down to the ground. Guys that you never can get to stop no matter how hard you play against them. Our leaders don't really got that.

If we filled our holes, I think we could beat anyone in the first round, we would then struggle some in the 2nd round, but still would have a chance, and then come the Conference finals, I just don't see extremly hardworking guys, but still somewhat fragile, like Nylander, Straka, Jagr, Prucha and co lead the way for us all the way through 3-4 hardfought PO's series against extremely good teams.

Add a young soldier like Eric Staal to our 2nd line and a Eric Cole to flank him and its another story.

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01-31-2007, 04:06 PM
  #89
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With a better 2nd line center, with a good D, I am afraid(!) that we will become the Detroit Red Wings...

My point is, I don't think we are that far from becomming a President Trophy winner. Like Detroit. But they have also been knocked out of the PO's three straight years in the first round, right? (not 100% sure if my memory serves me right on that one)

There are never any gaurantees in the PO's. Its tough. But I do wonder if we'd even be the best PO's team in the league with Joe Thornton and Scott Niedermayer on board...

On the way to a cup we would have to beat 4 very honest, very hard working teams. Somewhere along the line it just feels like we are bound to run out of gas.

Though it might just be me selling the team short. But if you look at Carolina's roster last season, Staal, Stillman, Whitney, Cullen, Adam's x2, Cole among others, they were led by players that are very tough to fight down to the ground. Guys that you never can get to stop no matter how hard you play against them. Our leaders don't really got that.

If we filled our holes, I think we could beat anyone in the first round, we would then struggle some in the 2nd round, but still would have a chance, and then come the Conference finals, I just don't see extremly hardworking guys, but still somewhat fragile, like Nylander, Straka, Jagr, Prucha and co lead the way for us all the way through 3-4 hardfought PO's series against extremely good teams.
Agree completely with an addition or two, it puts us over the 1st round hump. Anything beyond that is frankly, luck and determination. Injuries will happen, players will get hot.

Am I saying that we can even get to the conference finals with any certainty, nope!

But the playoffs can be an absolute crapshoot. Picking up a few guns is worth the mild expenditure...if anything, nothing is a better teacher than playoff experience. Add as many games as possible to the resumes of Lundqvist, Tyutin, Prucha, and the like

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01-31-2007, 04:12 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
A lot more than the Rangers had, apparently.
Which Rangers? The regular season Rangers or the playoff Rangers who were without their leading scorer, top defenseman and starting goalie? The Rangers who won the season series against the Devils or the Rangers who got swept by them in the Playoffs?

I think you understimate what it takes to contend in the playoffs, and I hope you arent basing it on last years result. Edmonton made it to the finals with a cast that was weaker than a healthy '05-'06 Rangers team, and certainly might be weaker than the team we currently have.

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01-31-2007, 04:20 PM
  #91
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I am just a fan and had only seen Zidlicky a 2-3 times, and knew that he defenitly were among the top 20 pointmens in the World, while he played in Finland.

Sather on the other hand were willing to pay 80m per season too a bunch of extremely overrated vets, but not sling a 400k signing bonus along 1m per one way to a European rookie.
So what you're saying is you're smarter than the Edmonton Genius. And you know what? I totally believe that!

I'm not being funny, either, and this is where the problem lies. We have lots of potentially good players coming up. At least that's what Don Maloney said on the FAN. The truth is, some will turn out to be good, and some won't. Some may even be very good.

The problem is, Sather is not smart enough to decide which is which. He's proven that in the past, so any trade he makes involving a young player is potentially trading away a very good player down the road.

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01-31-2007, 04:31 PM
  #92
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Which Rangers? The regular season Rangers or the playoff Rangers who were without their leading scorer, top defenseman and starting goalie? The Rangers who won the season series against the Devils or the Rangers who got swept by them in the Playoffs?

I think you understimate what it takes to contend in the playoffs, and I hope you arent basing it on last years result. Edmonton made it to the finals with a cast that was weaker than a healthy '05-'06 Rangers team, and certainly might be weaker than the team we currently have.
The New York Rangers. Hey, man, stuff happens to every team, injuries are no excuse. Did the Canes fold because Eric Cole wasn't around until the very end? Did the Oilers give up when Rolosen went down? Both teams found a way. We found a way to get swept.

I'm not even convinced the injuries you speak of are behind us. Jagr definitely isn't the same, Lundqvist either, although I hope he can validate his recent run by playing well the rest of the season. The fact is that injuries tend to happen more to OLDER TEAMS.

By the way you're talking we should trade youth for Forsberg so he can get us into the playoffs, where 'anything can happen'. And when we open up against the Sabres, and Forsberg doesn't play because he's injured, we'll use injuries as an excuse for why we got swept...again. Same old same old.

Here's a newsflash...old guys get injured more often than young guys. Write that down. In ink. And we're talking about trading for one of the most injury-prone players in the league...a guy who HIMSELF says he's not sure if his foot will hold up.

HE'S the guy I don't want to trade a young guy (or two or three) for, unless the Edmonton Genius assures us the young guy(s) they traded will never be good NHLers.

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01-31-2007, 04:57 PM
  #93
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Agree completely with an addition or two, it puts us over the 1st round hump. Anything beyond that is frankly, luck and determination. Injuries will happen, players will get hot.

Am I saying that we can even get to the conference finals with any certainty, nope!

But the playoffs can be an absolute crapshoot. Picking up a few guns is worth the mild expenditure...if anything, nothing is a better teacher than playoff experience. Add as many games as possible to the resumes of Lundqvist, Tyutin, Prucha, and the like
You know, maybe you're right. Maybe back in 2003 we should have traded Lundqvist for Ziggy Palffy. Then we could have made the playoffs. Heck, we didn't miss by much, we finished ninth in the conference. And once you're in, you never know what can happen, right? Look at the Oilers last year.

Or maybe Prucha for Palffy would have made more sense. Or Tyutin. And this year instead of one or more (don't forget, Palffy WAS a great player) of those guys, we'd have...Palffy. Oh wait, no we wouldn't...he RETIRED.

And before you say you would have been smart enough not to trade those guys, remember, four years ago they were just part of a long list of prospects. Nobody knew FOR SURE at the time that they were going to be valuable players, not even you. Like everyone keeps saying on here, prospects are just prospects.

Prucha was picked 240th overall. If we were so sure Lundqvist was the real deal, we wouldn't have used our number six overall pick on Montoya...four years after we picked Henke...in 2004!

Heck, we traded Zidlicky, I guess we didnt' know HE was going to be a valuable player, did we? Or did you make a big fuss when we traded him?


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01-31-2007, 05:49 PM
  #94
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The New York Rangers. Hey, man, stuff happens to every team, injuries are no excuse.

Did the Canes fold because Eric Cole wasn't around until the very end? Did the Oilers give up when Rolosen went down? Both teams found a way. We found a way to get swept.

I'm not even convinced the injuries you speak of are behind us. Jagr definitely isn't the same, Lundqvist either, although I hope he can validate his recent run by playing well the rest of the season. The fact is that injuries tend to happen more to OLDER TEAMS.
When you lose the core of your team to injury its not an excuse, its a reality. The canes might have folded if they lost someone as important to their team as Jagr. And yes, the Oilers lost the game and the series after Roloson got hurt.

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By the way you're talking we should trade youth for Forsberg so he can get us into the playoffs, where 'anything can happen'. And when we open up against the Sabres, and Forsberg doesn't play because he's injured, we'll use injuries as an excuse for why we got swept...again.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not advocating getting Forsberg or anyone.

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Same old same old.
Same old? Did I miss a blockbuster trade at last years deadline? The first season in almost a decade that the Rangers not only looked likely to make the playoffs, but possibly win the division and we saw no major moves made. Thats the "same old rangers"?

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Here's a newsflash...old guys get injured more often than young guys. Write that down. In ink.
Awesome. I'll call up Lundqvist to let him know that hes less likely to get hurt than Kevin Weekes. Maybe that will keep him safe come playoff time.


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And we're talking about trading for one of the most injury-prone players in the league...a guy who HIMSELF says he's not sure if his foot will hold up.

HE'S the guy I don't want to trade a young guy (or two or three) for, unless the Edmonton Genius assures us the young guy(s) they traded will never be good NHLers.
Against, who is advocating Forsberg? I'm simply stating that you have clearly have NO IDEA what a team can do in the playoff with the right players doing their job or with the right circumstances. The direction the organization is taking is to build while being successful now. There wont be a dismantling of the team, nor should their be.

By the way, you are so obnoxious that you almost make me want to root for the "Edmonton Genius", someone who I truly dislike.

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01-31-2007, 06:16 PM
  #95
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Length and depth of Ward's contract?1 year at $2.75 million?

The issue is Vasicek isn't the answer either
Ward has another year at $2.75MM.

Vasicek may not be the answer but if the price is Rachunek, so what?

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02-01-2007, 06:19 AM
  #96
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Ward has another year at $2.75MM.

Vasicek may not be the answer but if the price is Rachunek, so what?
Rachunek is more valuable than Vasicek.The Rangers have Rachunek's rights until 2008 while Vasicek can walk away this summer.Besides Vasicek isn't any upgrade

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02-01-2007, 09:24 AM
  #97
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The young quartet of Shea Weber, Dan Hamhuis, Greg Zanon and Ryan Suter have been solid behind veterans Timonen and Marek Zidlicky on the blue-line but it's possible the Predators may try to add a little more experience before the Feb. 27 trade deadline

"We're going to knock on all the doors that are sellers," Poile.
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/hockey/070131/h013139A.html

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Old
02-01-2007, 11:30 AM
  #98
dave4
 
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
When you lose the core of your team to injury its not an excuse, its a reality. The canes might have folded if they lost someone as important to their team as Jagr. And yes, the Oilers lost the game and the series after Roloson got hurt.
And when Forsberg gets hurt we'll chalk it up to injury. For the record, the Oilers played pretty well without Roloson.

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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not advocating getting Forsberg or anyone.
Cool, so we're in agreement. I don't remember you typing it in that thread. So then what exactly ARE you advocating?

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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Same old? Did I miss a blockbuster trade at last years deadline? The first season in almost a decade that the Rangers not only looked likely to make the playoffs, but possibly win the division and we saw no major moves made. Thats the "same old rangers"?
Last season they didn't. Before that they did...a lot. I hope they don't do it again.

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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Awesome. I'll call up Lundqvist to let him know that hes less likely to get hurt than Kevin Weekes. Maybe that will keep him safe come playoff time.
Yes if you're younger you're less likely to get hurt. It's a fact. It's not impossible that you can get hurt, my 15 year old nephew blew out his ACL last night playing basketball. As far as goalies are concerned, when you play a lot more games than an older goalie, the odds of getting hurt tilt back toward you a little.

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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Against, who is advocating Forsberg? I'm simply stating that you have clearly have NO IDEA what a team can do in the playoff with the right players doing their job or with the right circumstances. The direction the organization is taking is to build while being successful now. There wont be a dismantling of the team, nor should their be.
So you don't want to get Forsberg or anyone, but you want...well I don't know what you want.

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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
By the way, you are so obnoxious that you almost make me want to root for the "Edmonton Genius", someone who I truly dislike.
Well I dislike the Edmonton Genius, but I'm rooting for him because I root for the Rangers, and I want them to be great again...not a team that barely makes the playoffs. Ranger fans are the most loyal, vocal fans in the world and we deserve a team that's as good as we are.

Oh, and thanks for the personal attack. Very classy.

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Old
02-01-2007, 12:03 PM
  #99
Edge
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Personnel and coaching out two different things...

I just disagree with you, that's all...Get a decent 2nd C to play with Shanny and you have two good scoring lines not to mention a speed and bumping line with skill in COP..With Betts down on the 4th line with Ward/Holly/whoever and you have a pretty energetic and defensively reliable checking line...I'll go the POs with those......The defense is a bit more complicated and where the problems lie...We need a steady physical stay at home D-man..If one can be traded for and not touching the 5-8 prospects that are really worth something, it might be worth doing.if the price is too high, then no...But you have to give it a try (the search)
I tend to agree with this.

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Old
02-01-2007, 03:01 PM
  #100
RangerBoy
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Originally Posted by shoothepuck View Post
The biggest problem, is that NY knew last season they needed a 2nd line C, and a stay at home physical D-man, and they did nothing to get one. Now is not the time to try and pick up old, injured scraps. If a good is there, make the trade, if not wait for the summer.
Boston got those guys and look at them now.Spending money in the FA market doesn't guarantee success

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