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Old
01-23-2014, 07:31 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
In the month of January, Mesz has looked overall pretty decent. Are you going to tell me that if you are Craig Berube you are going to bench Mesz right now? Even if Mesz is only given easy minutes and in the offensive zone...who cares if he is playing those minutes well. Someone has to play the easy minutes. It's not like Gus is going to be put out there with 30 seconds left up by one with the goalie pulled in the defensive zone. If Mesz cools down, go ahead and bench him, but when Gus went down with the injury, Mesz stepped up. As I said in pre-season, Gus has not earned the spot to the point where he should be handed anything. If he slips, someone else (anyone really, not just Mesz) can step up and take it. Ride Mesz out until he fizzles, and if he doesn't, great. Gus will still be there when Mesz leaves.
It's playing easy minutes but performing, defensively, below average. I'm one of the belief that defenders must play defense first before offense. Mez is playing the easiest minutes out of the 7 defenders we have played, yet has performed one of the worse defensively. That's got to be a concern even for you DFF. If he constantly gets beat defensively, then yes, I would either bench him or I guess think about putting him at forward (which I dont think would work for him).

This isnt even about Gus for me honestly. Mez is just performing extremely bad on the defensive side of things. This isnt him being rusty or whatnot. It's just that he either turns it over for a goal (see as a posted this his turnover gets CLB the first goal of the game) or he gets beat to the outside. Before I posted this I watched as he got skated around easily and then the player centered the puck. I do not understand how this consistently happens every game. Now if you like to play him just because of his shot, then I guess you will be happy with his play. If it's because of his defensive work or first pass, then I think you arent watching the same player most of us are.

Mez has 19 turnovers in 32 games. That is TERRIBLE.

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01-24-2014, 02:10 AM
  #227
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Mez getting walked by Horton tonight was...eh, not good. I don't want to say that should be the nail in his coffin, but...

I appreciate the offense he has provided and am glad for his sake that he is healthy again, but I don't think it'd be the worst idea to put Gus in for him. It really couldn't hurt.

To be fair to Mez though, Luke Schenn hasn't been much better recently.

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01-24-2014, 08:55 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In the month of January, Mez has been good offensively. But he has been a wreck defensively, and that contributes to the team's overall defensive struggles.

He has 10 points in January...yet he's just a +3. So he's only barely been outscoring his defensive gaffes. When he inevitably cools down, he'll go back to being purely detrimental like he was before.


On that note, Grossmann is a lot more alarming at 3 points and a -7. His drop in play likely has a lot to do with the defensive struggles. But adding Mez to the roster has certainly done nothing to alleviate the problem.

Edit: And once again..that's the thing. Gus will still be here when Mez leaves. There's no reason to keep Gus on such a short leash while giving Mez endless chances. Play the guy who'll be here in the future who could use the starts. Mez should be the one on a sort leash.
I've said all along play the guy who is playing better. Mesz has been hot during Gus's injury and has remained so since he has been cleared. He hasn't been great defensively but he has been very good offensively. I get the defensive concern, but you gotta balance that with what he is bringing on offense.

If you have a defenseman who is awful on offense but continually making good defensive plays, you wont bench him. If you have a forward killing it on D but struggling on offense you prob wouldn't bench him. Mez has been firing on offense. Yes he's struggling on D, but that's only half the battle. If Gus comes in maybe we get better defense, but the offense then goes back a step. I just think you don't bench a guy in the midst of such a hot streak for a defenseman.

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01-24-2014, 09:16 AM
  #229
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I don't even think the offence takes that big a step backwards quite frankly.

We all know that Mez is a 30-35 point D man.

Gus so far in his NHL career has 20 in 80 (0.25PPG)... his figures from the AHL and college would suggest he gets about 0.3PPG at NHL level... so ~25 points.

His 15 in last 47 (more expanded role) also projects to 26 points... right in line with projections from college and AHL scoring.

So far this year:

Gus: 48.6% Ozone start, 54.1% Ozone finish, GFON/60: 2.49, GAON/60: 2.08, +/-/60: +0.42, Pens taken/60: 0.2
Mez: 52.6% Ozone start, 48.1% Ozone finish, GFON/60: 2.93, GAON/60: 2.80 +/-/60: +0.13, Pens taken/60: 1.2

So Gus moves the play forward better, takes far less penalties, has a better +/-, is cheaper and better defensively.

I take the guy who does all that and gets 25 points to the guy who does non of that and gets 30-35, and averages 31 points every 82 over his career.

Gus just fits better with the team atm...

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01-24-2014, 09:24 AM
  #230
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First Berube wouldn't make a change on D till they lost a game.

Now they have lost 3 in a row and he still won't bring back Gus.

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01-24-2014, 09:33 AM
  #231
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Those of you who think replacing Mez with Gus will make any difference at all are lying to yourselves. Let's trade Rosehill for Colton Orr while we're at it.

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01-24-2014, 09:37 AM
  #232
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Those of you who think replacing Mez with Gus will make any difference at all are lying to yourselves. Let's trade Rosehill for Colton Orr while we're at it.
I can almost promise you that Gus would be far better in the defensive zone. Mez has been getting abused regularly, resulting in multiple goals against every night. Any chance to get him off the ice should be considered a plus.

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01-24-2014, 11:08 AM
  #233
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Those of you who think replacing Mez with Gus will make any difference at all are lying to yourselves. Let's trade Rosehill for Colton Orr while we're at it.
There is no one move that fixes this team. But a plethora of moves might. This is just a step in the right direction. When the team has a 3.75 gaa over the past I don't know how many game, but it quite a few, you should be concentrating on doing everything you can to improve the defense. Replacing Mez with Gus wouldn't instantly lower that to 2.75gaa going forward but it would help and the stats are there to prove it.

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01-24-2014, 11:43 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Those of you who think replacing Mez with Gus will make any difference at all are lying to yourselves. Let's trade Rosehill for Colton Orr while we're at it.
I think it's missing the point, though. I don't think any realistic Flyers fan thinks they're going the distance this year. If Gus has proved that he is a capable defenseman and is going to be a part of the team over the course of the next few years (when we're presumably building toward a championship), we have nothing to lose by playing him now -- in fact, he should be playing now. It's the same reason why the 06-07 season, while awful from a fan's perspective, was good for player development. Defensemen in general should not be held at gunpoint when developing (nor should any player). Put them out there, let them make mistakes, let them reach their potential. He's not going to learn anything from the press box.

On top of that, we need to stop being so upset when this team loses. Yes, they're capable of playing better hockey, but they're ultimately not a very good team. Very good is when they're all playing their best hockey, and that will happen maybe 15 games this year.

edit: the same reasoning in my first paragraph is why I think the Vinny signing is a bad one -- it stymies growth of our younger players, which hurts us in the long run.

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01-24-2014, 12:00 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I've said all along play the guy who is playing better. Mesz has been hot during Gus's injury and has remained so since he has been cleared. He hasn't been great defensively but he has been very good offensively. I get the defensive concern, but you gotta balance that with what he is bringing on offense.

If you have a defenseman who is awful on offense but continually making good defensive plays, you wont bench him. If you have a forward killing it on D but struggling on offense you prob wouldn't bench him. Mez has been firing on offense. Yes he's struggling on D, but that's only half the battle. If Gus comes in maybe we get better defense, but the offense then goes back a step. I just think you don't bench a guy in the midst of such a hot streak for a defenseman.
Defensemen need to play defense first. Mez is absolutely terrible out there on D. Defense happens to be a major problem with this team, certainly a bigger problem than scoring goals. They've routinely been scoring 3+ goals and losing games. The defense needs to be fixed and playing a guy who's responsible defensively over the guy who's a disaster defensively is a step in the right direction.

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01-24-2014, 12:35 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Those of you who think replacing Mez with Gus will make any difference at all are lying to yourselves. Let's trade Rosehill for Colton Orr while we're at it.
well considering how bad defensively this team has looked it sure could not hurt. I know Gus is not and may never be a game changer but given how things have gone defensively the last week plus I do not think it would hurt to stick Gus in there and see how he does.
As far as Rosehill goes he can GTFO while we are at it. But we know that isnt going to happen.

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01-24-2014, 12:55 PM
  #237
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Nobody thinks Gustafsson is leaps and bounds better then Meszaros, but it's blatantly unfair that he keeps getting the shaft for a guy that wasn't even developed with us and doesn't have much history with us on top of being a free agent.

Aside from the morals of it, Gustafsson has flat-out been better in his appearances and might have a future here if given a chance as opposed to Meszaros who is consistently terrible in the D zone and looks like a star winger in the offensive zone on occasion.

It's also crappy player development. Gustafsson is a player developed here yet he keeps getting shafted for Andrej Meszaros. It makes no sense and it's just a bad way to handle prospects. Even prospects who won't be stars like Gustafsson.

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01-24-2014, 01:10 PM
  #238
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Meszaros also gets away with more **** play in his own zone then Gus has ever done. It took one critical error for Gus to get benched last month. But we have the stank defensive game of Meszaros to look forward to game after game.
And another thing when Gus does come back how is he going to play? He is going to be tentative and playing afraid to make a mistake which will lead to mistakes. or a mistake which will once again lead to his benching.
What ****** veteran bottom pairing guy will the Flyers have around when Alt,Morin,Hagg and Ghost get here as insurance when they make 1 mistake.

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01-24-2014, 01:29 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Defensemen need to play defense first. Mez is absolutely terrible out there on D. Defense happens to be a major problem with this team, certainly a bigger problem than scoring goals. They've routinely been scoring 3+ goals and losing games. The defense needs to be fixed and playing a guy who's responsible defensively over the guy who's a disaster defensively is a step in the right direction.
Absolutely, but at the same time, Mez isn't the only one out there playing poorly on defense. He needs to step it up on defense, I agree, but the team also needs his offense. While a defenseman is this hot offensively, it is hard to sit a guy even if his defensive play is sucking.

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Meszaros also gets away with more **** play in his own zone then Gus has ever done. It took one critical error for Gus to get benched last month. But we have the stank defensive game of Meszaros to look forward to game after game.
And another thing when Gus does come back how is he going to play? He is going to be tentative and playing afraid to make a mistake which will lead to mistakes. or a mistake which will once again lead to his benching.
What ****** veteran bottom pairing guy will the Flyers have around when Alt,Morin,Hagg and Ghost get here as insurance when they make 1 mistake.
It's pretty easy to see why this is happening with Gus. He isn't as good as people think he is on here. He's a 25 year old player that the organization does not have much invested in. They use a draft pick on him. They didn't spend a ton on him. If he makes a mistake and gets benched, the organization isn't losing out on much. Berube, Laviolette, and whomever else has been involved doesn't see what HFBoards sees in him. Morin (and likely Hagg) will not get the same treatment because these are guys that have promise and that the organization has invested a lot into these players. They are not 25 year old, undrafted players with less than a full season spread out over four years. It's really pretty simple.

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01-24-2014, 02:16 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Absolutely, but at the same time, Mez isn't the only one out there playing poorly on defense. He needs to step it up on defense, I agree, but the team also needs his offense. While a defenseman is this hot offensively, it is hard to sit a guy even if his defensive play is sucking.



It's pretty easy to see why this is happening with Gus. He isn't as good as people think he is on here. He's a 25 year old player that the organization does not have much invested in. They use a draft pick on him. They didn't spend a ton on him. If he makes a mistake and gets benched, the organization isn't losing out on much. Berube, Laviolette, and whomever else has been involved doesn't see what HFBoards sees in him. Morin (and likely Hagg) will not get the same treatment because these are guys that have promise and that the organization has invested a lot into these players. They are not 25 year old, undrafted players with less than a full season spread out over four years. It's really pretty simple.
yup. Spend 7 million bucks on the bottom pairing instead of letting the kids play.

oh well its all hindsight that its not looking too good using this philosophy right?

as always you are missing the point.

Mez sucks=keep playing him
Gus struggles=bench him.

Young players need to play thru their mistakes and learn from them. He isnt going to learn anything this way.
What happens when our prospects get to the big club. Maybe they ought to keep Hal Hill or some other slug around in case they make a mistake.

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01-24-2014, 02:26 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
yup. Spend 7 million bucks on the bottom pairing instead of letting the kids play.
Please stop referring to Gus as a "kid" or a "prospect." He is 25, less than three years younger than Andrej Meszaros.

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oh well its all hindsight that its not looking too good using this philosophy right?
Gus simply is not as good as people like to pretend, and Mesz is not as bad as people like to pretend. While Mez is firing like this offensively, leave him in there. If Gus was playing like this, I'd say the same thing. But he isn't. When he gets back in the lineup, which I'm sure he will, we'll see how he does.

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as always you are missing the point.

Mez sucks=keep playing him
Gus struggles=bench him.
But Mez isn't sucking...he's at basically PPG over this last month. He isn't playing well defensively, but a defenseman scoring at a PPG clip is not something I would tweak with. You can complain all day about his poor defense, but you simply can't overlook his offensive output as of late. Then again, I guess you can, since that is what you are doing. I'm not ignoring his poor defensive efforts here, I'm just saying I can live with them while he puts up these numbers. When he starts to fizzle, if his defense continues to be bad, then bench him. But until then, I leave him out there.

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Young players need to play thru their mistakes and learn from them. He isnt going to learn anything this way.
What happens when our prospects get to the big club. Maybe they ought to keep Hal Hill or some other slug around in case they make a mistake.
Gus is 25. He's not Samuel Morin. He's not Robert Haag. He's an undrafted 25 year old. If Morin or Haag were in the mix, we woudln't be having this discussion. That is how it works. You don't just give guys playing time in the NHL because they are young. If they earn it, great. Let them play. But a defenseman ripping a PPG month doesn't get benched because there is some guy that is 25 and might be a pretty good 6th defender one day is on the bench.

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01-24-2014, 02:35 PM
  #242
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im not over looking is offense.
he has been good offensively, but it pretty much evens out with his horrid play in his own zone. Last I looked Meszaros is a defenseman. not a forward.
Gus is a kid to me. hes 25 yes bu he has little NHL playing time. There is little denying that there is a double standard. Veterans are allowed to get away with far too much while players with much less experience(is that better for you) are not allowed to get away with nearly as much. That is nothing I am making up. that is the fact and the proof is showing.

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01-24-2014, 02:50 PM
  #243
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im not over looking is offense.
he has been good offensively, but it pretty much evens out with his horrid play in his own zone. Last I looked Meszaros is a defenseman. not a forward.
Absolutely. But when a defenseman is on a tear offensively like Mez is right now, I don't think you bench him. His poor defensive play brings him down but his high offensive play is still there. Look, I'm not saying let Mez play the rest of the season because he played well in this last month. I'm just saying you don't bench a guy this hot. I'd be saying the same thing for Gus if he was playing like this.

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Gus is a kid to me. hes 25 yes bu he has little NHL playing time. There is little denying that there is a double standard. Veterans are allowed to get away with far too much while players with much less experience(is that better for you) are not allowed to get away with nearly as much. That is nothing I am making up. that is the fact and the proof is showing.
Absolutely that is the case. And that should be the case. Veterans who have paid their dues and shown what they can do are allowed to make mistakes. Unproven players don't get that much latitude. The reason being, at least with the veteran you have seen what he can do. He may not get back to that point after a slump, but you know he is capable of that. The unproven player you don't know what he is capable of. Will Gus ever be better than he is right now? I don't know. Is it worth it to "wait and see" just because he is 25 and hasn't played a full season int he NHL? How is that any better than "waiting and seeing" what the veteran will do? Isn't that also a double standard?

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01-24-2014, 03:12 PM
  #244
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Absolutely that is the case. And that should be the case. Veterans who have paid their dues and shown what they can do are allowed to make mistakes. Unproven players don't get that much latitude. The reason being, at least with the veteran you have seen what he can do. He may not get back to that point after a slump, but you know he is capable of that. The unproven player you don't know what he is capable of. Will Gus ever be better than he is right now? I don't know. Is it worth it to "wait and see" just because he is 25 and hasn't played a full season int he NHL? How is that any better than "waiting and seeing" what the veteran will do? Isn't that also a double standard?
This right here is why the Flyers haven't drafted and developed an impact defenseman in well over a decade. You both approach the defense with the same backwards logic.

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01-24-2014, 03:35 PM
  #245
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That is far and beyond the most ass backwards logic I have ever seen, heard, or read.

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01-24-2014, 03:47 PM
  #246
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Absolutely, but at the same time, Mez isn't the only one out there playing poorly on defense. He needs to step it up on defense, I agree, but the team also needs his offense. While a defenseman is this hot offensively, it is hard to sit a guy even if his defensive play is sucking.
Except they really sort of don't need his offense. What they really, really need is to get Mez, who is routinely on the ice for 2-3 goals against per game, off the ice. Get someone who can play D in his place and not cost the team boatloads of goals against and you suddenly don't need him as much on offense. Hell, one of the big reasons we "need" his offense is because we have to outscore the number of goals allowed while he and Schenn are on the ice.

Quote:
It's pretty easy to see why this is happening with Gus. He isn't as good as people think he is on here. He's a 25 year old player that the organization does not have much invested in. They use a draft pick on him. They didn't spend a ton on him. If he makes a mistake and gets benched, the organization isn't losing out on much. Berube, Laviolette, and whomever else has been involved doesn't see what HFBoards sees in him. Morin (and likely Hagg) will not get the same treatment because these are guys that have promise and that the organization has invested a lot into these players. They are not 25 year old, undrafted players with less than a full season spread out over four years. It's really pretty simple.
Gus is a better player than Mez. It's really pretty simple.

But, the organization has (mostly) 4 decades of failure when it comes to handling and developing Dmen, so they go with Mez instead, as they are wont to do. It's just another brick in the Failing Wall.

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01-24-2014, 03:52 PM
  #247
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This right here is why the Flyers haven't drafted and developed an impact defenseman in well over a decade. You both approach the defense with the same backwards logic.
Go ahead and make a list of the impact Dmen drafted and developed by the Flyers org.

You'll come away depressed.

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01-24-2014, 03:54 PM
  #248
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Go ahead and make a list of the impact Dmen drafted and developed by the Flyers org.

You'll come away depressed.
Seidenberg?

Oh...wait...

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01-24-2014, 03:56 PM
  #249
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Go ahead and make a list of the impact Dmen drafted and developed by the Flyers org.

You'll come away depressed.
Pitkanen is about the only guy I can think of, and even he skipped town before he was at his best.

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01-24-2014, 04:00 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Except they really sort of don't need his offense. What they really, really need is to get Mez, who is routinely on the ice for 2-3 goals against per game, off the ice. Get someone who can play D in his place and not cost the team boatloads of goals against and you suddenly don't need him as much on offense. Hell, one of the big reasons we "need" his offense is because we have to outscore the number of goals allowed while he and Schenn are on the ice.



Gus is a better player than Mez. It's really pretty simple.

But, the organization has (mostly) 4 decades of failure when it comes to handling and developing Dmen, so they go with Mez instead, as they are wont to do. It's just another brick in the Failing Wall.
I suppose you are right. If Gus were playing maybe this wouldn't have happened.

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