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Old
01-24-2014, 04:17 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Pitkanen is about the only guy I can think of, and even he skipped town before he was at his best.
Joe Watson: Drafted and developed by Bruins, taken by FLyers in Expansion draft.

Barry Ashbee: Played for a bunch of years in the AHL before going to Boston, then Philly.

Mark Howe: Drafted and Developed in Hartford

Brad McCrimmon: Drafted and developed by Boston

Eric Desjardins: Drafted and Developed in Montreal

Kimmo Timonen: Drafted and developed elsewhere in general

Chris Pronger: St. Louis

Coburn, Carle(including because why not), Mez, Grossmann, Streit, Schenn: Drafted and developed elsewhere.

Flyers on current roster drafted and developed by Flyers: Gus

Flyers on current roster being jerked around the most for no logical reason: Gus


Notable past Flyers drafted, developed, and kept by Flyers: Jimmy Watson. Chris Therien. Excuse me while I play an instrument worthy of celebrating the drafting and development of something like 2 staple players in 40+ years:



If anybody else can think of consequential dmen drafted, developed, and kept by Philly for a noteworthy amount of time, feel free to chip in. This is all I can think of off the top of my head.

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01-24-2014, 04:19 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I suppose you are right. If Gus were playing maybe this wouldn't have happened.
We could probably expect one less goal against per game, since Mez's errors tend to directly cause at least one goal against per night on most nights.

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01-24-2014, 04:21 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We could probably expect one less goal against per game, since Mez's errors tend to directly cause at least one goal against per night on most nights.
And over the last month, we would have to then also take away one less goal for per game as well. Or does that not count?

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01-24-2014, 04:22 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Please stop referring to Gus as a "kid" or a "prospect." He is 25, less than three years younger than Andrej Meszaros.



Gus simply is not as good as people like to pretend, and Mesz is not as bad as people like to pretend. While Mez is firing like this offensively, leave him in there. If Gus was playing like this, I'd say the same thing. But he isn't. When he gets back in the lineup, which I'm sure he will, we'll see how he does.



But Mez isn't sucking...he's at basically PPG over this last month. He isn't playing well defensively, but a defenseman scoring at a PPG clip is not something I would tweak with. You can complain all day about his poor defense, but you simply can't overlook his offensive output as of late. Then again, I guess you can, since that is what you are doing. I'm not ignoring his poor defensive efforts here, I'm just saying I can live with them while he puts up these numbers. When he starts to fizzle, if his defense continues to be bad, then bench him. But until then, I leave him out there.



Gus is 25. He's not Samuel Morin. He's not Robert Haag. He's an undrafted 25 year old. If Morin or Haag were in the mix, we woudln't be having this discussion. That is how it works. You don't just give guys playing time in the NHL because they are young. If they earn it, great. Let them play. But a defenseman ripping a PPG month doesn't get benched because there is some guy that is 25 and might be a pretty good 6th defender one day is on the bench.
About time someone brought the Gus lovers back to earth. Exactly the point I've been trying to make. He's not an elite level prospect or even that young. He's a fringe hockey player at best. We've had enough of a sample size to know exactly what he is.

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01-24-2014, 04:24 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And over the last month, we would have to then also take away one less goal for per game as well. Or does that not count?
He has played more than just the one month. We also have the group of games where he wasn't scoring, but was responsible for goals against.

I truly have no idea why you place so much trust in an organization that has done such a miserable job of creating its own dmen since it's inception. Why do you trust that they're making the right decision by playing Gus over Mez? THe stats suggest otherwise. The eyeball test suggests otherwise. 4 decades of largely failed dman development suggests otherwise.

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01-24-2014, 04:26 PM
  #256
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About time someone brought the Gus lovers back to earth. Exactly the point I've been trying to make. He's not an elite level prospect or even that young. He's a fringe hockey player at best. We've had enough of a sample size to know exactly what he is.
Yep, we know exactly what he is:

Better than Mez.

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01-24-2014, 04:31 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And over the last month, we would have to then also take away one less goal for per game as well. Or does that not count?
That third pairing would be a whole lot more stable with Gus. Schenn has played his best hockey this year when paired with Gus, while he looks like complete crap with Mez

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01-24-2014, 04:38 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He has played more than just the one month. We also have the group of games where he wasn't scoring, but was responsible for goals against.
Absolutely, but he in the midst of a hot streak. I have no problem sitting him after he cools down. I've been saying that since the preseason. You play the guy that is playing better. Going into the season, my thought was it was Mez's job to lose because Gus had played only 60 games spread over three seasons. He essentially lost the gig to Gus. Gus then got hurt. Mez stepped up his offensive play and has been on fire as of late. Leave him in until he cools down. If he keeps playing this hot, or his defense improves, don't do anything. Gus will still be there as your bottom pair guy when you need him. He's not going anywhere as an RFA and his development as a 25 year old has gone about as far as it can at this point. I don't think anyone should realistically think he's going to be anything more than he is right now, or at least not much more than a 5/6 guy. This isn't Samuel Morin riding the pine. Hell this isn't even a prospect riding the pine. This is a 25 year old, who has not even played the equivalent of a full season over four years. If he was 21 and a former first rounder and he had played 80 games last year, then ok, I'd get your argument. Let the kid develop. But he's not. He's a bottom pair guy that can be re-signed for cheap next year or let walk and easily be replaced. Then a new bottom pair guy can become the golden boy on HFBoards who the organization ruins.

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I truly have no idea why you place so much trust in an organization that has done such a miserable job of creating its own dmen since it's inception. Why do you trust that they're making the right decision by playing Gus over Mez? THe stats suggest otherwise. The eyeball test suggests otherwise. 4 decades of largely failed dman development suggests otherwise.
It's not necessarily that I am trusting the organization to anything. You play a guy that is playing hot. He is having problems in the defensive zone, for sure. He got embarrassed by Horton last night. But he also has been creating offense. Put Gus out there and you hae a more stable defender, but less offense. Maybe that is better. Maybe it isn't. If I'm the coach, I'd ride Mez. Just like if Mez went down and lets say Hal Gill came in and was playing well. Then I'd ride Gill. Or Gus. Or Lauridsen. Or any other player that is interchangeable that is playing well.

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01-24-2014, 04:43 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Absolutely, but he in the midst of a hot streak. I have no problem sitting him after he cools down. I've been saying that since the preseason. You play the guy that is playing better. Going into the season, my thought was it was Mez's job to lose because Gus had played only 60 games spread over three seasons. He essentially lost the gig to Gus. Gus then got hurt. Mez stepped up his offensive play and has been on fire as of late. Leave him in until he cools down. If he keeps playing this hot, or his defense improves, don't do anything. Gus will still be there as your bottom pair guy when you need him. He's not going anywhere as an RFA and his development as a 25 year old has gone about as far as it can at this point. I don't think anyone should realistically think he's going to be anything more than he is right now, or at least not much more than a 5/6 guy. This isn't Samuel Morin riding the pine. Hell this isn't even a prospect riding the pine. This is a 25 year old, who has not even played the equivalent of a full season over four years. If he was 21 and a former first rounder and he had played 80 games last year, then ok, I'd get your argument. Let the kid develop. But he's not. He's a bottom pair guy that can be re-signed for cheap next year or let walk and easily be replaced. Then a new bottom pair guy can become the golden boy on HFBoards who the organization ruins.



It's not necessarily that I am trusting the organization to anything. You play a guy that is playing hot. He is having problems in the defensive zone, for sure. He got embarrassed by Horton last night. But he also has been creating offense. Put Gus out there and you hae a more stable defender, but less offense. Maybe that is better. Maybe it isn't. If I'm the coach, I'd ride Mez. Just like if Mez went down and lets say Hal Gill came in and was playing well. Then I'd ride Gill. Or Gus. Or Lauridsen. Or any other player that is interchangeable that is playing well.
If I'm coach I noticed the defense is terrible and seek to improve it by playing a better player.

A big part of the reason they're losing games is an inability to get out of their own zone. Mez's massive amount of costly turnovers is a big factor in that. Berube says he believes in creating offense from defense. Mez is the opposite of that philosophy.

Edit: Letting Gus go because he's easily replaced...remind me, how many defensively decent PMDs are out there to be had for less than 2 mil? You think like the Flyers org...incorrectly.

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01-24-2014, 04:53 PM
  #260
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I hope Gus gets to play in this gauntlet of games coming up because I'm not so sure he is going to make that much of a difference (prove a point)...I hope I'm wrong and he is the catalyst to some wins b/c he can transition out of the zone better than those two led zeppelins ..Schenn and Mesz

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01-24-2014, 04:55 PM
  #261
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Joe Watson: Drafted and developed by Bruins, taken by FLyers in Expansion draft.

Barry Ashbee: Played for a bunch of years in the AHL before going to Boston, then Philly.

Mark Howe: Drafted and Developed in Hartford

Brad McCrimmon: Drafted and developed by Boston

Eric Desjardins: Drafted and Developed in Montreal

Kimmo Timonen: Drafted and developed elsewhere in general

Chris Pronger: St. Louis

Coburn, Carle(including because why not), Mez, Grossmann, Streit, Schenn: Drafted and developed elsewhere.

Flyers on current roster drafted and developed by Flyers: Gus

Flyers on current roster being jerked around the most for no logical reason: Gus


Notable past Flyers drafted, developed, and kept by Flyers: Jimmy Watson. Chris Therien. Excuse me while I play an instrument worthy of celebrating the drafting and development of something like 2 staple players in 40+ years:



If anybody else can think of consequential dmen drafted, developed, and kept by Philly for a noteworthy amount of time, feel free to chip in. This is all I can think of off the top of my head.
He wasn't drafted by any club

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01-24-2014, 04:57 PM
  #262
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He wasn't drafted by any club
Nitpicking.

Fine..."found."

The concept remains the same. He's the only one on the roster that originated within the organization. If they Flyers don't learn how to handle guys who aren't established or aren't developed by another team, Morin and Hag will end up as wasted picks. Brace yourself for the very real possibility that Hagg gets benched for making one bad pass while a 38 year old Streit continues to routinely make mistakes.

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01-24-2014, 04:59 PM
  #263
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If I'm coach I noticed the defense is terrible and seek to improve it by playing a better player.

A big part of the reason they're losing games is an inability to get out of their own zone. Mez's massive amount of costly turnovers is a big factor in that. Berube says he believes in creating offense from defense. Mez is the opposite of that philosophy.

Edit: Letting Gus go because he's easily replaced...remind me, how many defensively decent PMDs are out there to be had for less than 2 mil? You think like the Flyers org...incorrectly.
The reason that his value was ZERO in the trade boards is that there are loads of suitable 6/7th defensemen to be had for cheap.

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01-24-2014, 05:00 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Nitpicking.

Fine..."found."

The concept remains the same. He's the only one on the roster that originated within the organization. If they Flyers don't learn how to handle guys who aren't established or aren't developed by another team, Morin and Hag will end up as wasted picks. Brace yourself for the very real possibility that Hagg gets benched for making one bad pass while a 38 year old Streit continues to routinely make mistakes.
but.. those guys are young and have potential. Not sure I see the comparison

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01-24-2014, 05:01 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If I'm coach I noticed the defense is terrible and seek to improve it by playing a better player.

A big part of the reason they're losing games is an inability to get out of their own zone. Mez's massive amount of costly turnovers is a big factor in that. Berube says he believes in creating offense from defense. Mez is the opposite of that philosophy.
But again, during this last month his offense has been important to this team. I understand the concerns defensively, but you just don't bench a guy that is this hot.

Quote:
Edit: Letting Gus go because he's easily replaced...remind me, how many defensively decent PMDs are out there to be had for less than 2 mil? You think like the Flyers org...incorrectly.
Well, I'll go back to the fact that I have a different view of Gus than you, being that he has played less than a full season spread out over four years, I'm not read to say he is good or bad defensively or offensively. You have made up your mind, I have not. And I am not saying we should get rid of Gus at all. I want him re-signed just like you do. All I'm saying is that if he wasn't re-signed, it wouldn't be too difficult to replace him. Off hand, I don't know of any defenders off hand that fall into that category, but I'm sure some could be found.

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01-24-2014, 05:01 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Nitpicking.

Fine..."found."

The concept remains the same. He's the only one on the roster that originated within the organization. If they Flyers don't learn how to handle guys who aren't established or aren't developed by another team, Morin and Hag will end up as wasted picks. Brace yourself for the very real possibility that Hagg gets benched for making one bad pass while a 38 year old Streit continues to routinely make mistakes.
Hmm sounds familiar...I've been making analogies, much to the consternation of some, between sports...but Collins on the Sixers had a penchant for not developing young players properly and giving them a chance to learn....one of the reasons the Sixers lost Vucevic.

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01-24-2014, 05:07 PM
  #267
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The reason that his value was ZERO in the trade boards is that there are loads of suitable 6/7th defensemen to be had for cheap.
List them. Who replaces Gus in the FA market for cheaper, while also being as good? The Lilja, Gills, and Kubinas of the world? How many dmen in their mid-20s who aren't garbage make it to FA? The answer is none.

They're all inferior.

The reason nobody on the trade board knows who Gus is, is because the Flyers are mangling his development and he gets no exposure.

Streit came into the NHL at a late age; later than Gus. If he had been signed by the Flyers he never would have broken in. He would've been farted around for a few years before going back to Europe.

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01-24-2014, 05:14 PM
  #268
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But again, during this last month his offense has been important to this team. I understand the concerns defensively, but you just don't bench a guy that is this hot.



Well, I'll go back to the fact that I have a different view of Gus than you, being that he has played less than a full season spread out over four years, I'm not read to say he is good or bad defensively or offensively. You have made up your mind, I have not. And I am not saying we should get rid of Gus at all. I want him re-signed just like you do. All I'm saying is that if he wasn't re-signed, it wouldn't be too difficult to replace him. Off hand, I don't know of any defenders off hand that fall into that category, but I'm sure some could be found.
Yeah, you can easily bench a defenseman who's playing absolutely terrible defense, especially if defensive play is a huge part of the team's problem to begin with. Berube preaches about accountability...he preaches about playing responsible defense first and creating offense from there. Continuing to play Mez flies directly in the face of that philosophy.

Mez's defensive play has almost completely neutralized his hot streak, hence why he's only a +2 despite all the points he's earned. And that defensive play contributes to keeping the team in their own end, helping them lose games. His impact isn't that great, because he largely neutralizes the offensive good he's done in the last month. The team needs stability in the back, and Mez brings the opposite of that.

Your thinking looks eerily similar to the organization's...and the organizations thinking towards Dmen and their development has been ass backwards since our parents were in grade school, and MSE was still just a theoretical prototype.

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01-24-2014, 05:15 PM
  #269
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but.. those guys are young and have potential. Not sure I see the comparison
Now, I'll ask you to list the number of young Flyers defenseman with potential that have been properly developed.

Don't worry. It's going to be a very short list.

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01-24-2014, 05:34 PM
  #270
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so using DFF logic if the Flyers lose 7-2 to the Bruins tomorrow and Meszaros is a -5 with a secondary assist he should keep on playing because hey he is creating offense despite ****** defense.
brilliant logic.

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01-24-2014, 05:42 PM
  #271
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Who the hell thinks Gus is an elite prospect or anything more than a 4-6 defenseman? There's literally no one trying to argue that. It's just that he's clearly better than Mez, who probably shouldn't even be in the NHL right now. I'm glad Mez had a nice couple of games creating offense. He was still brutal defensively, which the last time I checked, is still his primary job.

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01-24-2014, 06:35 PM
  #272
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Joe Watson: Drafted and developed by Bruins, taken by FLyers in Expansion draft.

Barry Ashbee: Played for a bunch of years in the AHL before going to Boston, then Philly.

Mark Howe: Drafted and Developed in Hartford

Brad McCrimmon: Drafted and developed by Boston

Eric Desjardins: Drafted and Developed in Montreal

Kimmo Timonen: Drafted and developed elsewhere in general

Chris Pronger: St. Louis

Coburn, Carle(including because why not), Mez, Grossmann, Streit, Schenn: Drafted and developed elsewhere.

Flyers on current roster drafted and developed by Flyers: Gus

Flyers on current roster being jerked around the most for no logical reason: Gus


Notable past Flyers drafted, developed, and kept by Flyers: Jimmy Watson. Chris Therien. Excuse me while I play an instrument worthy of celebrating the drafting and development of something like 2 staple players in 40+ years:



If anybody else can think of consequential dmen drafted, developed, and kept by Philly for a noteworthy amount of time, feel free to chip in. This is all I can think of off the top of my head.
Tom Bladon (463 games) and Behn Wilson (339 games)... them, Therien and Jimmy Watson is the entire list frankly.


Then there is the list of 'Drafted, semi-developed, given up on.':

Murray Baron: 83 games for the Flyers... 903 elsewhere. (traded age 23 (Part of Brindy trade))

Gord Murphy: 261 games for the Flyers... 601 elsewhere. (traded age 24 (Garrey Galley, Wes Waltz... fair enough really.)

Dmitri Yushkevich: 197 games for the Flyers initially...571 elsewhere and 18 more for Flyers when old. (traded age 24 for Zubrus pick.)

Janne Niinimaa: 143 games for the Flyers...598 elsewhere. (traded age 22 for McGillis.)

Kevin McCarthy: 84 games for the Flyers...453 elsewhere. (traded age 21 for Dennis Ververgaert.)

Dennis Seidenberg: 93 games for the Flyers... 522 elsewhere. (traded age 24 for Nedved.)

Joni Pitkanen: 206 games for the Flyers... 329 elsewhere. (traded age 23.)

So of the 11 truly significant NHL D men the Flyers have ever drafted 7 were traded by 24 years old... mainly for forwards.

Even the ones who 'stayed' for significant time with the Flyers:
Wilson was traded age 24.
Bladon was traded age 25.


So that is a grand total of 2/11 good D men they kept past age 25.

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01-24-2014, 07:24 PM
  #273
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Tom Bladon (463 games) and Behn Wilson (339 games)... them, Therien and Jimmy Watson is the entire list frankly.


Then there is the list of 'Drafted, semi-developed, given up on.':

Murray Baron: 83 games for the Flyers... 903 elsewhere. (traded age 23 (Part of Brindy trade))

Gord Murphy: 261 games for the Flyers... 601 elsewhere. (traded age 24 (Garrey Galley, Wes Waltz... fair enough really.)

Dmitri Yushkevich: 197 games for the Flyers initially...571 elsewhere and 18 more for Flyers when old. (traded age 24 for Zubrus pick.)

Janne Niinimaa: 143 games for the Flyers...598 elsewhere. (traded age 22 for McGillis.)

Kevin McCarthy: 84 games for the Flyers...453 elsewhere. (traded age 21 for Dennis Ververgaert.)

Dennis Seidenberg: 93 games for the Flyers... 522 elsewhere. (traded age 24 for Nedved.)

Joni Pitkanen: 206 games for the Flyers... 329 elsewhere. (traded age 23.)

So of the 11 truly significant NHL D men the Flyers have ever drafted 7 were traded by 24 years old... mainly for forwards.

Even the ones who 'stayed' for significant time with the Flyers:
Wilson was traded age 24.
Bladon was traded age 25.


So that is a grand total of 2/11 good D men they kept past age 25.
That's really sad.

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01-24-2014, 07:45 PM
  #274
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Tom Bladon (463 games) and Behn Wilson (339 games)... them, Therien and Jimmy Watson is the entire list frankly.


Then there is the list of 'Drafted, semi-developed, given up on.':

Murray Baron: 83 games for the Flyers... 903 elsewhere. (traded age 23 (Part of Brindy trade))

Gord Murphy: 261 games for the Flyers... 601 elsewhere. (traded age 24 (Garrey Galley, Wes Waltz... fair enough really.)

Dmitri Yushkevich: 197 games for the Flyers initially...571 elsewhere and 18 more for Flyers when old. (traded age 24 for Zubrus pick.)

Janne Niinimaa: 143 games for the Flyers...598 elsewhere. (traded age 22 for McGillis.)

Kevin McCarthy: 84 games for the Flyers...453 elsewhere. (traded age 21 for Dennis Ververgaert.)

Dennis Seidenberg: 93 games for the Flyers... 522 elsewhere. (traded age 24 for Nedved.)

Joni Pitkanen: 206 games for the Flyers... 329 elsewhere. (traded age 23.)

So of the 11 truly significant NHL D men the Flyers have ever drafted 7 were traded by 24 years old... mainly for forwards.

Even the ones who 'stayed' for significant time with the Flyers:
Wilson was traded age 24.
Bladon was traded age 25.


So that is a grand total of 2/11 good D men they kept past age 25.
Wow that is incredibly bad. i knew the flyers were bad when it came to dmen...didnt know it was this bad. How about luck with undrafted free agents or drafted players who never signed and then signed with Flyers? Does any exist?

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01-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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Appleyard
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If we look at Expansion teams drafting and the significant D men they have picked (~500+ games... or guaranteed to have so.)

Flyers: Baron, Murphy, Yushkevich, Therien, Niinimaa, Watson, Bladon, Wilson, Seidenberg, McCarthy and Pitkanen. (11)

Penguins: Lane, Campbell, Anderson, Buskas, Bodger, Zalapski, Joseph, Laus, Tamer, Rozsival, Ference, Scuderi, Orpik, Whitney and Letang. (15)

Blues: Hamel, Brownschidle, Siltanen, Donnelly, Benning, Hedican, Marshall, Jackman, Polak and Pietrangelo. (10)

Kings: Murphy, Sydor, Galley, Blake, Wells, Zhitnik, Timonen, Hardy, Visnovsky, Kennedy, Corvo, Berg, Hutchinson, Lilja, F.Kaberle, Komadoski and Doughty. (17)

Stars: Chambers, Redmond, O'Brien, Barrett, Hicks, Maxwell, Giles, Hartsburg, Velischek, Rouse, Musil, Zettler, Hatcher, Matvichuk, Erskine, Daley, Grossmann and Niskanen. (18)

Part of that is ofc just not drafting D men early hardly ever... but still pretty bad.

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