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Game #53| Sat., Jan. 25, 2014| Bruins at Flyers |1:00 p.m. ET

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Old
01-24-2014, 02:30 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
6-2 L

Hopefully following the game the team gets blown up.
im trying not to post this in the prediction thread.

but sadly i think thats also going to be the outcome/score..

its so depressing..

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Old
01-24-2014, 02:39 PM
  #52
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Game's already over folks. We lost 5-1.
We scored a goal? Nice!

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01-24-2014, 03:39 PM
  #53
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He's got a point comparing how to manage an NBA team to an NHL team is like comparing apples & oranges.

There's only a handful of teams of worth a damn in the NBA & all of them have at least one superstar. Tanking in order to get one is usually the only shot teams without one have a chance in the league. The Sixers had no choice but to blow it all up & start that approach.

The Flyers aren't at that point where they should throw in the towel & start over & nor should they. Tanking is a big risk in revenue & not a guaranteed success.

It will take a few seasons but sticking to the plan we have instituted now & change of GM's could steer us into the right path. You can win a cup without tanking as long as you have good scouts (which we do) & good management (which we don't currently).
The NBA system is flawed in that you need a star to compete and there is only 1 or 2 in a given draft and not every year. You have to tank to at done point win. The NHL is not like that. The NHL draft is more like an NFL NBA hybrid. You get get good players thru out with good scouting and some luck but franchise changing players with the fastest impact for the most part are taken high.

My point is the flyers don't respect the draft. LA became a good deep team not because they tanked. In fact they missed on a lot of first rounders. They became good because the dumped assets for picks when the knew they wouldn't be competing for a cup. They had 46 picks over 5 years before the reached the playoffs. The Flyers had only 34 during the same time period. In fact the Flyers have only 1 draft since the lockout where they have had more than 7 total picks and 6 drafts with less. They don't trade up to get guys and seldom trade down to get more picks. That is where you build you team. Where would San Jose be without trading up for Logan Couture or acquiring a couple extra 7th rd picks to draft joe Pavelski, Justin Braun , and Jason demers. Those 7th rd hits were like hitting the lottery but wouldn't of occur if San Jose didn't acquire more picks to make them.

The Flyers should've traded what they could last year for more picks instead of foolishly hoping to make a late season run or hoping for a carry over. If they have more picks maybe they take Goulbourne later and use the 3rd on a skill player like Bjorkstrand. The Goulbourne pick in itself shows how little respect they have for the draft when they are choosing 4th liners over boom or bust guys at important positions. They will probably spend big bucks and trade 1st rd picks for a defenseman taken after him in 8 or 9 years.

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01-24-2014, 03:48 PM
  #54
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The NBA system is flawed in that you need a star to compete and there is only 1 or 2 in a given draft and not every year. You have to tank to at done point win. The NHL is not like that. The NHL draft is more like an NFL NBA hybrid. You get get good players thru out with good scouting and some luck but franchise changing players with the fastest impact for the most part are taken high.

My point is the flyers don't respect the draft. LA became a good deep team not because they tanked. In fact they missed on a lot of first rounders. They became good because the dumped assets for picks when the knew they wouldn't be competing for a cup. They had 46 picks over 5 years before the reached the playoffs. The Flyers had only 34 during the same time period. In fact the Flyers have only 1 draft since the lockout where they have had more than 7 total picks and 6 drafts with less. They don't trade up to get guys and seldom trade down to get more picks. That is where you build you team. Where would San Jose be without trading up for Logan Couture or acquiring a couple extra 7th rd picks to draft joe Pavelski, Justin Braun , and Jason demers. Those 7th rd hits were like hitting the lottery but wouldn't of occur if San Jose didn't acquire more picks to make them.

The Flyers should've traded what they could last year for more picks instead of foolishly hoping to make a late season run or hoping for a carry over. If they have more picks maybe they take Goulbourne later and use the 3rd on a skill player like Bjorkstrand. The Goulbourne pick in itself shows how little respect they have for the draft when they are choosing 4th liners over boom or bust guys at important positions. They will probably spend big bucks and trade 1st rd picks for a defenseman taken after him in 8 or 9 years.
That's a really good point on those depth draft picks by the way. People disregard them as nothing picks and useless when they're traded away because people don't like the idea of management wasting picks and see how slim the odds are and don't expect anything realistically.

In reality players do get acquired in those rounds frequently. The picks themselves in any given draft aren't likely to make a quality NHL player, but there's usually at least some kind of quality player to be had in those rounds. Guys like Hornqvist, Braun, and Demers are great examples of that. There's even examples of star players being drafted in those rounds like Datsyuk, Pavelski, Lundqvist (IIRC), and even St. Louis and Bobrovsky were undrafted.

I'm not saying late picks are ultra valuable or likely to net you an NHL player on any given pick, but stuff like 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks aren't completely useless or as unlikely to bring anything forth as people like to say when trades go down with them. It annoys me when people disregard those picks as completely useless.

EDIT: Not really a commentary with the Flyers specifically, it seems pretty much most people have that mindset with those picks.

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01-24-2014, 03:54 PM
  #55
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Who were the Flyers going to trade to acquire all these picks? I mean we trash the D, if they are so bad, who would trade for them? Right?

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01-24-2014, 03:59 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
The Flyers should've traded what they could last year for more picks instead of foolishly hoping to make a late season run or hoping for a carry over. If they have more picks maybe they take Goulbourne later and use the 3rd on a skill player like Bjorkstrand. The Goulbourne pick in itself shows how little respect they have for the draft when they are choosing 4th liners over boom or bust guys at important positions. They will probably spend big bucks and trade 1st rd picks for a defenseman taken after him in 8 or 9 years.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but last year Mez and Briere were both injured at the deadline. They would've been the most logical players to move. There's other players that could have been moved for sure, but those guys were expendable and had some value at the time.

There was the rumored deal with Boston in place for Briere right before he got hurt. We really had a lot of bad luck last year.

I agree though, that again we have an opportunity to move players, but as long as they're in a position to compete they won't do it. They'll buy with picks instead, and we'll be stuck in the hell that is mediocrity.

I'm just holding out hope that if Homer could trade Richards and Carter, that he could deal Hartnell or Kimmo at the deadline.

EDIT: Also the problem of not having picks is really more of a problem of how they use them. If you're going to trade picks it needs to be done wisely. Trading a 2nd for Grossman who was a mid 20's guy and part of the plan for the next 3-5 years is a good move. Trading a 2nd and 4th for an old Pavel Kubina who was only ever going to be a rental was not a good move.

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01-24-2014, 03:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
The NBA system is flawed in that you need a star to compete and there is only 1 or 2 in a given draft and not every year. You have to tank to at done point win. The NHL is not like that. The NHL draft is more like an NFL NBA hybrid. You get get good players thru out with good scouting and some luck but franchise changing players with the fastest impact for the most part are taken high.

My point is the flyers don't respect the draft. LA became a good deep team not because they tanked. In fact they missed on a lot of first rounders. They became good because the dumped assets for picks when the knew they wouldn't be competing for a cup. They had 46 picks over 5 years before the reached the playoffs. The Flyers had only 34 during the same time period. In fact the Flyers have only 1 draft since the lockout where they have had more than 7 total picks and 6 drafts with less. They don't trade up to get guys and seldom trade down to get more picks. That is where you build you team. Where would San Jose be without trading up for Logan Couture or acquiring a couple extra 7th rd picks to draft joe Pavelski, Justin Braun , and Jason demers. Those 7th rd hits were like hitting the lottery but wouldn't of occur if San Jose didn't acquire more picks to make them.

The Flyers should've traded what they could last year for more picks instead of foolishly hoping to make a late season run or hoping for a carry over. If they have more picks maybe they take Goulbourne later and use the 3rd on a skill player like Bjorkstrand. The Goulbourne pick in itself shows how little respect they have for the draft when they are choosing 4th liners over boom or bust guys at important positions. They will probably spend big bucks and trade 1st rd picks for a defenseman taken after him in 8 or 9 years.
Good points.....

With any sport assembling a team is a process.....that is kind of what I was getting at with my Sixers comparison. With Hinkie I see a process...with Holmgren not so much although last two drafts I think they turned a page but I'm concerned with the owner's impatience as well as that of the fans and the GM's gambling style. It's a perfect storm for another round of rash moves that can set this team back even further if not careful and measured.

Again....I liked what Holmgren did with the Carter and Richards trade. They knew they had to restock/reload after admitting they were giving away picks for far too long even though the owner at one point said they would value their youth and picks. Didn't last long with the Pronger pickup and then it cascaded from there.

This article was pretty good at showing how even in Basketball rebuilding can still be a long process especially if you don't get that stud franchise pick. It's a smaller roster but chemistry and development is still involved..


Don't count on Sixers being better next year

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...BU5gWcWkD1v.99

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01-24-2014, 04:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Who were the Flyers going to trade to acquire all these picks? I mean we trash the D, if they are so bad, who would trade for them? Right?
Its not that all of them are individually terrible defenseman. Its we have to many guys who are not puck movers or are a little slow. They could be valuable players if paired with the right partner, but we dont have those guys to go with them

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01-24-2014, 04:11 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Its not that all of them are individually terrible defenseman. Its we have to many guys who are not puck movers or are a little slow. They could be valuable players if paired with the right partner, but we dont have those guys to go with them
Problem is, they look god awful and if you trade them at this point, you get nothing for them.

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01-24-2014, 04:11 PM
  #60
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Many of you probably don't recall that after the 86-87 storied season ( my favorite of all time), the Flyers started a downward trend and then the painful agony of 5 years in a row of not making the playoffs until Lindros, LeClair, Renberg and Rico became the core. A lot of that stemmed from Bobby Clarke holding on to veterans too long and letting go of others like McCrimmon for petulant reasons. He wound up trading Propp and Poulin too late and the returns were not great as a result which made the situation worse. I mean Kenny Linseman for Poulin was horrid and even the 2nd rounder for Propp was pretty lame. The Flyers were going for a youth movement as the article below notes but Clarke's moves were pretty poor....this is part of the reason he got canned by Jay Snider the 1st time around. He went to the North Stars and did well there by building up that Stanley Cup contender but he dropped the ball in Philly....he obviously picked it up again with Rico and LeClair.

http://articles.philly.com/1990-03-0...p-ken-linseman

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01-24-2014, 04:17 PM
  #61
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If you guys want a GM that makes every move perfectly right, then you will root for nobody in sports. Everybody screws up.

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01-24-2014, 04:20 PM
  #62
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Problem is, they look god awful and if you trade them at this point, you get nothing for them.
Eh, we weren't going to get much for them before they started playing like crap. Grossmann and Schenn would never have gotten us 1st round picks or a young pmd but they could get 2nd round picks for us now or back then. Streit won't get you much but a team that doesn't spend to the cap could probably take him for a veteran presence (but I don't think he is traded). I don't think we would get more than a 4th or 5th round pick for Mez even after his hot streak. We shouldn't trade Coburn since we need more defenceman like him and would just be creating another hole to fill. I would say Timonen is the only one who bring in a nice return( 1st round pick) from a playoff team if he is willing to waive his NMC to make one more push for a cup. But the biggest thing we would gain from trading these guys is cap space to sign players that better fit out needs

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01-24-2014, 04:20 PM
  #63
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A 2nd round pick for a player running at just over a half point per game, bet he would fit into that scope today. They got the 42nd pick in the draft.

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01-24-2014, 04:31 PM
  #64
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If you guys want a GM that makes every move perfectly right, then you will root for nobody in sports. Everybody screws up.
Yeah no crap....the issue is what is the cost/price of those mistakes. Missing the playoffs 5 years in a row due to a series of missteps when Clarke was GM the 1st go around is egregious. In Holmgren's case...missteps since the Big trades (Bryz etc) cost us 1 lost playoff season..hopefully not a second even if the team is a ways off from being a contender and won't go far with the present roster. Still important for player development to make the playoffs

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01-24-2014, 04:34 PM
  #65
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A 2nd round pick for a player running at just over a half point per game, bet he would fit into that scope today. They got the 42nd pick in the draft.
Who was the Pick though..I know under Clarke Flyers pretty much sucked at drafting. Darren Rumble anybody?

Anyway, the point was that he had to undersell some of his more valuable assets. It didn't help the situation at the time....there were a lot of other reasons they had to let Clarke go as well of course. My point is that like anything in life..it's about timing.

BTW..Propp had some decent production still after we traded him..ironically his best year was the season Minnesota went to the Finals..under Clarke no less


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01-24-2014, 06:49 PM
  #66
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Who was the Pick though..I know under Clarke Flyers pretty much sucked at drafting. Darren Rumble anybody?
Clarke's drafting towards the end was pretty solid. Obviously not much outside of the first round but they hit on most of their first rounders before he left. They got Giroux & Richards towards the backend of the first round & Carter right outside of the top 10. I even think Pitkanen could have been something special if he wasn't a total ****y.

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01-24-2014, 06:52 PM
  #67
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Is it possible to score negative points in a game?

I'm guessing 7 to -4, Bruins win.

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01-24-2014, 07:19 PM
  #68
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Who was the Pick though..I know under Clarke Flyers pretty much sucked at drafting. Darren Rumble anybody?

Anyway, the point was that he had to undersell some of his more valuable assets. It didn't help the situation at the time....there were a lot of other reasons they had to let Clarke go as well of course. My point is that like anything in life..it's about timing.

BTW..Propp had some decent production still after we traded him..ironically his best year was the season Minnesota went to the Finals..under Clarke no less
Propp's best season after he left the Flyers. Not career-wise.

And as far as drafting, ultimately, the GM has the responsibility within his job description but many of the picks were handled by Gary Darling who ran some of the drafts. It is what led to friction between Darling and Gerry Melnyk towards the end and eventually led to the hiring of John Paddock. The opinions of Darling and Melnyk were weighed heavily. Rumble and Kerry Huffman were Darling's selections.

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01-24-2014, 08:00 PM
  #69
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I knew they were going to lose last game, but for some reason I feel really confident about this one.

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01-24-2014, 08:12 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Propp's best season after he left the Flyers. Not career-wise.

And as far as drafting, ultimately, the GM has the responsibility within his job description but many of the picks were handled by Gary Darling who ran some of the drafts. It is what led to friction between Darling and Gerry Melnyk towards the end and eventually led to the hiring of John Paddock. The opinions of Darling and Melnyk were weighed heavily. Rumble and Kerry Huffman were Darling's selections.
Yes after he left the Flyers...what I meant.

As far as who handled the draft..was aware that Clarke delegated drafting but his first tenure was bad nonetheless as far as drafting. I do credit Holmgren when he became GM for assembling a better group and in Clarkes 2nd tenure as a scout he was obviously influential with some of the players mentioned in the previous post

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01-24-2014, 08:23 PM
  #71
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Is it possible to score negative points in a game?

I'm guessing 7 to -4, Bruins win.
We should get a -1 for every goal that goes off a defender. I would say your prediction is very accurate.

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01-24-2014, 08:36 PM
  #72
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Yes after he left the Flyers...what I meant.

As far as who handled the draft..was aware that Clarke delegated drafting but his first tenure was bad nonetheless as far as drafting. I do credit Holmgren when he became GM for assembling a better group and in Clarkes 2nd tenure as a scout he was obviously influential with some of the players mentioned in the previous post
Clarke said the McCrimmon and Poulin situations were two he mishandled and regretted. The first was emotional based on not only one but multiple contractual squabbles and, by comparison, a modest difference in sum of money. The Poulin/Propp situation was Clarke dealing them to Boston, which was out of respect to them because Boston was amid a strong Cup run that season. Darling was the head scout of Boston the year the Bruins drafted Brad McCrimmon as another oddity. He recently passed away, had an interesting connection to some huge NHL talents.

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01-25-2014, 12:25 AM
  #73
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This game will be nasty, I mean REALLY nasty.

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01-25-2014, 04:02 AM
  #74
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If we wait a bit, our D-core will be:

Coburn, Morin, Ghost, Hagg, Gus and some other guy. This can all be had within 2 years or so. If we drafted McKeown, then how about this for the future:

Coburn-Ghost
Morin-McKeown
Gus-Hagg

That sounds like a good 6 .
Reminds me of the good old times when everybody would post lineups with a defensive core of Coburn, Parent, Marshall, Bourdon and we were all pumped to see them play together.

But I have to agree, your lineup actually does look ok on paper!

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01-25-2014, 05:20 AM
  #75
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I'm bored of this team. Not even kidding. It's not exciting to watch them right now and hasn't been for the entirety of the past year. Blow it up. If we sneak the play-offs we'll bomb out quickly and it pains me to ask what the point of that is.

Blow it up. Trade everyone who isn't Mason, Giroux, Voracek or Simmonds. We might only get a bag of magic beans back for the rest but we've got to try. We're going nowhere right now, just meandering through the fields of mediocrity.

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