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Trade Rumor Thread XIII

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01-25-2014, 05:26 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Look at the standings. The Rangers lost 2 in a row and they will fall out of a playoff spot if they lose a few more in a row. You can't base moves on where the team sits in the standings. The Rangers played good hockey for three weeks and it can be undone with a few weeks of bad hockey. The Rangers aren't going to be out of a playoff spot by the deadline because all of the teams are mediocre and there is a 3 week Olympic break. There aren't enough games to fall out. Even if the Rangers trade a player or two or three,will they really be out of the race? In this conference? You can't say we're 2nd in our division today so we have to keep everyone. Next week,the team will be 4th in the division but a point or two out of 3rd in the division and the 2nd WC. Does the philosophy change? Don't use the standings as an excuse not to make the proper decisions. Don't tell me next year is next year because next year comes on March 6.
Not that my opinion means much, but I feel they should trade who they can trade. This team is not a cup contender at the moment so I'm not going to be livid if they miss the playoffs. I will be livid if the organization gets stuck with Callahan/Girardi for 6/5 million a pop.

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01-25-2014, 07:19 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Not that my opinion means much, but I feel they should trade who they can trade. This team is not a cup contender at the moment so I'm not going to be livid if they miss the playoffs. I will be livid if the organization gets stuck with Callahan/Girardi for 6/5 million a pop.
So you understand it's not easy to replace a top shutdown rd right? You also realize Cally is the type of player winning teams want?

I'm fine trading scraps that have value like Boyle , Stralman , any other ufa but the top guys will resign

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01-25-2014, 07:33 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Not that my opinion means much, but I feel they should trade who they can trade. This team is not a cup contender at the moment so I'm not going to be livid if they miss the playoffs. I will be livid if the organization gets stuck with Callahan/Girardi for 6/5 million a pop.
I'd do 7 year deals for both guys at those numbers.

Ranger fans tend to take their players for granted and then lament over them when they're gone. Girardi is pretty much impossible to replace. Show me the UFA we sign to take his spot. There isn't one and that's a hole you have to fill.

Callahan is a Ladd type forward that's earned his payday. What more do you want this guy to do for this organization? He's a leader by example, he scores, he kills penalties, he plays a physical game and he's excellent defensively. Who do you replace him with.

Losing either or both guys makes the organization weaker. It's that simple. Stocking up on draft picks and hoping they turn into either of these two guys would be long odds in Vegas.

This is a pretty young group. I buyout Richards and, at this point, you have to hope something is available on the UFA market. The smart teams (like San Jose, for example) are signing their home-grown guys while you are pining for draft picks that might not even end up as NHL players.

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01-25-2014, 07:44 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I'd do 7 year deals for both guys at those numbers.

Ranger fans tend to take their players for granted and then lament over them when they're gone. Girardi is pretty much impossible to replace. Show me the UFA we sign to take his spot. There isn't one and that's a hole you have to fill.

Callahan is a Ladd type forward that's earned his payday. What more do you want this guy to do for this organization? He's a leader by example, he scores, he kills penalties, he plays a physical game and he's excellent defensively. Who do you replace him with.

Losing either or both guys makes the organization weaker. It's that simple. Stocking up on draft picks and hoping they turn into either of these two guys would be long odds in Vegas.

This is a pretty young group. I buyout Richards and, at this point, you have to hope something is available on the UFA market. The smart teams (like San Jose, for example) are signing their home-grown guys while you are pining for draft picks that might not even end up as NHL players.
A 7 year contract for Ryan "three injuries a year" Callahan? Jesus christ.

I'd be pissed if he got anything above 4 years.

Comparing this team to San Jose and Callahan/Girardi to Thornton and Marleau? Delusional. Absolutely delusional. Those two can't hold Thornton's jock strap. He's a Hart trophy winner with consistent PPG seasons. That's why he got locked up.

I'm not a Callahan hater by any means but ~50 points where most of them come from the PP isn't that hard to replace. We play half the season without him anyway because he's always ****ing hurt. Not that big of a loss.

"Hope something is available". Well it's awesome that you're not the GM.

So yes, lets tie up 12 mill of our cap into two mediocre players, who will only get worse as they age, anything can happen!

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01-25-2014, 08:03 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
A 7 year contract for Ryan "three injuries a year" Callahan? Jesus christ.

I'd be pissed if he got anything above 4 years.

Comparing this team to San Jose and Callahan/Girardi to Thornton and Marleau? Delusional. Absolutely delusional. Those two can't hold Thornton's jock strap. He's a Hart trophy winner with consistent PPG seasons. That's why he got locked up.

I'm not a Callahan hater by any means but ~50 points where most of them come from the PP isn't that hard to replace. We play half the season without him anyway because he's always ****ing hurt. Not that big of a loss.

"Hope something is available". Well it's awesome that you're not the GM.

So yes, lets tie up 12 mill of our cap into two mediocre players, who will only get worse as they age, anything can happen!
Callahan and Girardi are "mediocre" players and I'm the one that's "delusional"? LOL. It's awesome you're "not the GM".

Have Thornton and Marleau won anything? Callahan made team U.S.A while Thornton will be golfing during the Olympic break.

If you think Callahan is just some dude that scores some points on the PP, then you're clearly missing what he brings to a team - and it's something (heart) that your boy Thornton there was criticized for not having enough of for many years - especially during the playoffs. A moniker he's shaken recently.

If Thornton takes a discount at, what, 6.75M/yr you don't think Callahan is worth 5M/per? Of course he is.

If Callahan brings back a guy like Ladd, sure. If Callahan brings back a mid-1st round draft pick and some grade b prospect? **** that. It's a terrible move for this franchise.

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01-25-2014, 08:03 AM
  #206
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We really need a long range plan. Signing Lundqvist and trading Del Zotto tell me that there really is no long range vision. Rather, try and catch lightening in a bottle. How has that plan worked in the last fourteen years

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01-25-2014, 08:11 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Callahan and Girardi are "mediocre" players and I'm the one that's "delusional"? LOL. It's awesome you're "not the GM".

Have Thornton and Marleau won anything? Callahan made team U.S.A while Thornton will be golfing during the Olympic break.

If you think Callahan is just some dude that scores some points on the PP, then you're clearly missing what he brings to a team - and it's something (heart) that your boy Thornton there was criticized for not having enough of for many years - especially during the playoffs. A moniker he's shaken recently.

If Thornton takes a discount at, what, 6.75M/yr you don't think Callahan is worth 5M/per? Of course he is.

If Callahan brings back a guy like Ladd, sure. If Callahan brings back a mid-1st round draft pick and some grade b prospect? **** that. It's a terrible move for this franchise.
I'm sorry, I don't care if he has the leadership of Herb Brooks, no ****ing intangibles are worth 6 million dollars a year, for the lack of offense he brings.

6 million dollars should be for near PPG players, Callahan will never be close to that, and I love the guy.

You're missing the point, it's not that Callahan or Girardi are bad players. It's that on a team, absolutely loaded with long and expensive contracts, we CAN'T give Girardi and Callahan contracts that you reserve for star players. If they were resigned, this team still has the same needs. A #1 center, OFD men, and another top 6 LW. When that much of the cap is taken up by players you are overpaid, you're setting yourself up for long term failure.

In what dimension of the hockey universe is Callahan worth 6 million anyway? Or Girardi, who literally can't function at a high level without a good partner, worth 6 million either? Sounds like you're overpaying to keep players you like. You save overpayments for players that can't be replaced. 50 point RW'ers and complimentary RHD can be replaced, it's not the impossible task you make it out to be.

Thornton and Marleau might not have won anything, but San Jose is a hell of a lot closer to a Stanley cup than this team is, and Thornton is irreplaceable, even at his age. Marleau isn't of the same caliber but he can still be relied on for 55-70 points a year. Bringing up them not being on their olympic teams is totally irrelevant.

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01-25-2014, 08:12 AM
  #208
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We really need a long range plan. Signing Lundqvist and trading Del Zotto tell me that there really is no long range vision. Rather, try and catch lightening in a bottle. How has that plan worked in the last fourteen years
It hasn't.

Yet people think if we resign the same good but not great players to long term contracts with big money, things will change.

It's the literal definition of insanity. Doing something that fails continuously until it works.

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01-25-2014, 08:12 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by bathgate View Post
We really need a long range plan. Signing Lundqvist and trading Del Zotto tell me that there really is no long range vision. Rather, try and catch lightening in a bottle. How has that plan worked in the last fourteen years
30 teams in the NHL. 1 Stanley Cup winner/year = 96.57% of teams fail to win the cup every year.

How many teams have made it to the playoffs as much as the Rangers have since the lockout? Only one has done it more (Detroit), iirc.

64 playoff games the last 7 years. One year they didn't make the playoffs in the stretch = 6 years in and average of 10+ games played per year (avg. exit = 2nd round).

Do I want more/better teams and a team with a better chance of winning the cup? Hell, yes. But to paint this franchise as dismal or unsuccessful simply isn't true by most measures.

I think signing Lundqvist and trading an impending RFA who's arbitration eligible (and likely very unhappy with the organization) for a guy who's locked up for 4+ years with a reasonable contract IS long range vision.

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01-25-2014, 08:18 AM
  #210
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Have Thornton and Marleau won anything? Callahan made team U.S.A while Thornton will be golfing during the Olympic break.
Why is this relevant? USA clearly chose a certain type of player over the most skilled. I would still take either Marleau or Thornton over Callahan anyday.

Quote:
If you think Callahan is just some dude that scores some points on the PP, then you're clearly missing what he brings to a team - and it's something (heart) that your boy Thornton there was criticized for not having enough of for many years - especially during the playoffs. A moniker he's shaken recently.
Is "heart" worth $6 a year for 7 years? Will Callahan take a discount to make his team a contender? Thornton did. Seems to me he has plenty of heart.

Quote:
If Thornton takes a discount at, what, 6.75M/yr you don't think Callahan is worth 5M/per? Of course he is.
IMO, AAV isn't the issue, it's the term. If Callahan signs a 3 year deal like Thornton and Marleau, then great. Everyone knows he'll be looking for 6/7 years.

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01-25-2014, 08:21 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by bathgate View Post
We really need a long range plan. Signing Lundqvist and trading Del Zotto tell me that there really is no long range vision. Rather, try and catch lightening in a bottle. How has that plan worked in the last fourteen years
Ensuring one of the best goalies in the world is signed long term is not looking at the future? Come on man

Dz needed to go. Klein is locked up at a good rate for several yrs and gives them some leverage in talks w gurardi and Stralman. If Stralman wants more than they want to give which he will then he walks and mcilrath replaces him. It all makes sense

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01-25-2014, 08:22 AM
  #212
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Out of the most absurd things I've heard on here, I think justifying Callahan over Joe Thornton because he made the USMNT is right up there.

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01-25-2014, 08:23 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
30 teams in the NHL. 1 Stanley Cup winner/year = 96.57% of teams fail to win the cup every year.

How many teams have made it to the playoffs as much as the Rangers have since the lockout? Only one has done it more (Detroit), iirc.

64 playoff games the last 7 years. One year they didn't make the playoffs in the stretch = 6 years in and average of 10+ games played per year (avg. exit = 2nd round).

Do I want more/better teams and a team with a better chance of winning the cup? Hell, yes. But to paint this franchise as dismal or unsuccessful simply isn't true by most measures.

I think signing Lundqvist and trading an impending RFA who's arbitration eligible (and likely very unhappy with the organization) for a guy who's locked up for 4+ years with a reasonable contract IS long range vision.
I must respectfully disagree. Lundqvist,who in my opinion, is the best goalie in the league, will never win a Cup in N.Y. Trading him would have brought some nice young core pieces. Klein is on the downside of his career. Build young from goal to defense to center then the wings. It can be done with patience and vision. I have no use for "one and Done" in the playoffs which appears to be Sather's gameplan.

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01-25-2014, 08:24 AM
  #214
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I'm sorry, I don't care if he has the leadership of Herb Brooks, no ****ing intangibles are worth 6 million dollars a year, for the lack of offense he brings.

6 million dollars should be for near PPG players, Callahan will never be close to that, and I love the guy.

You're missing the point, it's not that Callahan or Girardi are bad players. It's that on a team, absolutely loaded with long and expensive contracts, we CAN'T give Girardi and Callahan contracts that you reserve for star players. If they were resigned, this team still has the same needs. A #1 center, OFD men, and another top 6 LW. When that much of the cap is taken up by players you are overpaid, you're setting yourself up for long term failure.

In what dimension of the hockey universe is Callahan worth 6 million anyway? Or Girardi, who literally can't function at a high level without a good partner, worth 6 million either? Sounds like you're overpaying to keep players you like. You save overpayments for players that can't be replaced. 50 point RW'ers and complimentary RHD can be replaced, it's not the impossible task you make it out to be.

Thornton and Marleau might not have won anything, but San Jose is a hell of a lot closer to a Stanley cup than this team is, and Thornton is irreplaceable, even at his age. Marleau isn't of the same caliber but he can still be relied on for 55-65 points a year, though I think Marleau is overpaid. Bringing up them not being on their olympic teams is totally irrelevant.
I actually had the contracts reversed. I thought G was getting 6 and Callahan 5.

In any event, Marleau is 34 and he signed for 6.66M/per and that's a deal that you say you don't make yet the team that you're touting as closer to the Cup than the Rangers just did.

I'm not being emotional or talking about players that I "like" and I feel that you're undervaluing both players by saying G is a "complimentary RHD" and aren't hard to replace. Then why the **** would clubs like Anaheim and Boston covet a guy like Girardi and Callahan?

And arguing about cap space as being some kind of factor here simply isn't the problem. Richards will likely be bought out, the cap is going up to 71 million+ by most measures, and you have to pay top 6 forwards and top pairing D a decent amount of money NO MATTER WHAT unless a guy like McD falls your lap or you get lucky drafting.

And, yeah, I realize that Team Canada is a lot harder to make than Team USA, but saying Callahan can't hold Thornton's jock strap and that he's "mediocre" and easily replaced is just a bunch of BS. Mediocre players don't make team USA anymore.

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01-25-2014, 08:26 AM
  #215
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I must respectfully disagree. Lundqvist,who in my opinion, is the best goalie in the league, will never win a Cup in N.Y. Trading him would have brought some nice young core pieces. Klein is on the downside of his career. Build young from goal to defense to center then the wings. It can be done with patience and vision. I have no use for "one and Done" in the playoffs which appears to be Sather's gameplan.
Klein is actually in the prime of his career. Most NHL D's peak around 28 and carry that through age 33-34.

And, I can't agree with you about Lundqvist because:

A.) You don't have a crystal ball. You don't know if he's going to win a Cup here or not
B.) You say he's "the best goalie in the league" but what kind of Cup winning plan would trade the best goalie in the league? That's puzzling.

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01-25-2014, 08:28 AM
  #216
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Out of the most absurd things I've heard on here, I think justifying Callahan over Joe Thornton because he made the USMNT is right up there.
You're making **** up.

I brought that up because he said "Callahan couldn't hold Thornton's jock strap and is a mediocre player" which simply isn't the case.

I haven't said that Callahan > Thornton anywhere in this thread or anywhere else.

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01-25-2014, 08:35 AM
  #217
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You're making **** up.

I brought that up because he said "Callahan couldn't hold Thornton's jock strap and is a mediocre player" which simply isn't the case.

I haven't said that Callahan > Thornton anywhere in this thread or anywhere else.
It's true though. Thornton is a generational talent and it's disrespectful to him to be compared to a fairly average player like Callahan.

Using the US Olympic Team to justify as if they're comparable within the same league just looks silly.

Furthermore, hockey is a team sport. Thornton as an individual has won accolades. Hart Trophy winner and Art Ross Trophy winner. Also won Olympic Gold.


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01-25-2014, 08:41 AM
  #218
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Why is this relevant? USA clearly chose a certain type of player over the most skilled. I would still take either Marleau or Thornton over Callahan anyday.
It's relevant because he said Callahan is "mediocre" and "couldn't hold Joe's jockstrap". I'd take either of those over Ryan, too. Both guys make significantly more, however.



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Is "heart" worth $6 a year for 7 years? Will Callahan take a discount to make his team a contender? Thornton did. Seems to me he has plenty of heart.
I suggested 5M/yr for 7 years. Not 6M.



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IMO, AAV isn't the issue, it's the term. If Callahan signs a 3 year deal like Thornton and Marleau, then great. Everyone knows he'll be looking for 6/7 years.
Let's do a few comparables:

Ryan Clowe signed for 5 yrs 4.85/per and he's missed significant time with concussions and is likely one or two hits away from never playing again and he's older than Callahan.

Burrows makes 4.5/year. Iginla (at 36), too. Kessler 5M. Clarkson 5.25M. Marchand 4.5M. Gionta 5M.

I think Callahan is in there and, yes, Clarkson's contract is overpayment, but a bird in hand...

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01-25-2014, 08:45 AM
  #219
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We really need a long range plan. Signing Lundqvist and trading Del Zotto tell me that there really is no long range vision. Rather, try and catch lightening in a bottle. How has that plan worked in the last fourteen years

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01-25-2014, 08:47 AM
  #220
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It's true though. Thornton is a generational talent and it's disrespectful to him to be compared to a fairly average player like Callahan.

Using the US Olympic Team to justify as if they're comparable within the same league just looks silly.

Furthermore, hockey is a team sport. Thornton as an individual has won accolades. Hart Trophy winner and Art Ross Trophy winner. Also won Olympic Gold.
Wasn't trying to make them "comparable" by using the Olympics and if anyone's being "disrespected" around here it's Callahan and THAT'S the point I was trying to make.

Calling Callahan "mediocre", "fairly average", and "couldn't hold Thornton's jockstrap" isn't a fair. They bring different things to a team and, if memory serves, Team USA with Callahan on it was an OT goal away from winning gold, too.

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01-25-2014, 08:50 AM
  #221
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Wasn't trying to make them "comparable" by using the Olympics and if anyone's being "disrespected" around here it's Callahan and THAT'S the point I was trying to make.

Calling Callahan "mediocre", "fairly average", and "couldn't hold Thornton's jockstrap" isn't a fair. They bring different things to a team and, if memory serves, Team USA with Callahan on it was an OT goal away from winning gold, too.
While you're right that Callahan is an above average player, Callahan couldn't hold Jumbo's jockstrap. You even implying that he can is one of the most ludicrous things I've read on these forums.

There really is no middle ground on this forum is there. Either you're in the group who think Girardi and Callahan are irreplaceable generational talents or you think they're mediocre and terrible.

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01-25-2014, 08:52 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I actually had the contracts reversed. I thought G was getting 6 and Callahan 5.

In any event, Marleau is 34 and he signed for 6.66M/per and that's a deal that you say you don't make yet the team that you're touting as closer to the Cup than the Rangers just did.

I'm not being emotional or talking about players that I "like" and I feel that you're undervaluing both players by saying G is a "complimentary RHD" and aren't hard to replace. Then why the **** would clubs like Anaheim and Boston covet a guy like Girardi and Callahan?

And arguing about cap space as being some kind of factor here simply isn't the problem. Richards will likely be bought out, the cap is going up to 71 million+ by most measures, and you have to pay top 6 forwards and top pairing D a decent amount of money NO MATTER WHAT unless a guy like McD falls your lap or you get lucky drafting.

And, yeah, I realize that Team Canada is a lot harder to make than Team USA, but saying Callahan can't hold Thornton's jock strap and that he's "mediocre" and easily replaced is just a bunch of BS. Mediocre players don't make team USA anymore.
Sorry it's true. Thornton blows Callahan out of the water, in every way. To say he doesn't is being way too much of a homer.

Cap space is a problem though. Too many tong term contracts. Hank @ 8.5, Nash @ 7.8, and now Girardi and Callahan for 7 years each at 6 and 5 mill? You see the problem here? These are the salaries you pay for players that carry your team. Only Henrik has ever carried this team out of those players, and I'd argue that he's overpaid. You reserve these high end salaries for superstars that make their teammates better, and give your team a chance to win every night. That's not how I'd describe Callahan or Girardi.

Did you watch the Boston series last year? What happens when Girardi is separated from McD or Staal? It becomes a nightmare. Girardi can't function on his own. That doesn't make him a bad defenseman, however. And that's why teams want him.

Where are we getting the money to fill holes we need when we sign all these slightly above average players to ridiculous contracts? You're looking at this too short term.

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01-25-2014, 08:54 AM
  #223
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I just don't get the "same old Rangers" arguments about this, either. The Rangers really haven't been about signing their homegrown players. They've been about signing or trading for the flashy free agent (Nash, Gomez, Drury, Redden and on and on and on) instead of developing their own.

I don't think Callahan and Girardi are "generational talents" but I do think they are assets to this team. And they are. There's no reason to trade them away for draft picks instead of signing them to market value contracts.

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01-25-2014, 08:56 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Sorry it's true. Thornton blows Callahan out of the water, in every way. To say he doesn't is being way too much of a homer.

Cap space is a problem though. Too many tong term contracts. Hank @ 8.5, Nash @ 7.8, and now Girardi and Callahan for 7 years each at 6 and 5 mill? You see the problem here? These are the salaries you pay for players that carry your team. Only Henrik has ever carried this team out of those players, and I'd argue that he's overpaid. You reserve these high end salaries for superstars that make their teammates better, and give your team a chance to win every night. That's not how I'd describe Callahan or Girardi.

Did you watch the Boston series last year? What happens when Girardi is separated from McD or Staal? It becomes a nightmare. Girardi can't function on his own. That doesn't make him a bad defenseman, however. And that's why teams want him.

Where are we getting the money to fill holes we need when we sign all these slightly above average players to ridiculous contracts? You're looking at this too short term.
Anybody remember the nightmare that was Del Zotto-Girardi? A $6 million AAV defenseman should be able to elevate his pairings play, not be the ride-along.

Oh, and there is no shot Callahan is signing for $5 million AAV. That's less tahn a $200,000 AAV raise.

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01-25-2014, 08:57 AM
  #225
Raspewtin
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I just don't get the "same old Rangers" arguments about this, either. The Rangers really haven't been about signing their homegrown players. They've been about signing or trading for the flashy free agent (Nash, Gomez, Drury, Redden and on and on and on) instead of developing their own.

I don't think Callahan and Girardi are "generational talents" but I do think they are assets to this team. And they are. There's no reason to trade them away for draft picks instead of signing them to market value contracts.
But "market value" is a ludicrous price, with likely ridiculous term that this team can't afford to take on.

This team has the same problems it's had for the last 6 years. Can't score. Where are we getting the money to supplement these needs with So much money tied up in barely above average players?

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