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01-25-2014, 08:58 AM
  #226
dethomas07
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i understand the not signing G and cally, but what are you going to get for them on the open market? we lived in lala land thinking we could get a bunch of **** for MDZ, look how that turned out..and hes an RFA and 23yrs old..

teams are locking up all their players and its harder and harder to sign FA without over paying completely because theres no one available.. Trades? unless your willing to move serious pieces your not getting **** back that can step in and play like a g or cally..

we've missed the playoffs 1 in 9 years, how are we a mediocre team or both our players are mediocre.. thorton was traded by boston at like 25yrs old bc he didnt have what it takes to win.. if we havent done ****, neither has SJ.. stop just looking at stats, they dont mean **** and don't tell the story.. it takes a lot to win a cup and a lot more then one or 2 players.. its a team full of studs with one goal in mind..

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01-25-2014, 08:59 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Matt Carle Place View Post
Anybody remember the nightmare that was Del Zotto-Girardi? A $6 million AAV defenseman should be able to elevate his pairings play, not be the ride-along.

Oh, and there is no shot Callahan is signing for $5 million AAV. That's less tahn a $200,000 AAV raise.
I swear Del Zotto - Girardi were on ice for at least half the shots taken by Boston in that series. Awful. Just awful.

If Callahan signs for 5 million, I will eat every hat in my house.

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01-25-2014, 09:00 AM
  #228
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Sorry it's true. Thornton blows Callahan out of the water, in every way. To say he doesn't is being way too much of a homer.
I haven't said otherwise. I think they bring different things to the team and the "jockstrap" thing just is downright disrespectful. But I'll drop it.


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Cap space is a problem though. Too many tong term contracts. Hank @ 8.5, Nash @ 7.8, and now Girardi and Callahan for 7 years each at 6 and 5 mill? You see the problem here? These are the salaries you pay for players that carry your team. Only Henrik has ever carried this team out of those players, and I'd argue that he's overpaid. You reserve these high end salaries for superstars that make their teammates better, and give your team a chance to win every night. That's not how I'd describe Callahan or Girardi.
Nash at 7.8 bothers me more than Callahan at 5 or Girardi at 6. Was Nash even at any of last year's playoff games? He said he thought he played well. What? I hope he proves me wrong in the future.

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Did you watch the Boston series last year? What happens when Girardi is separated from McD or Staal? It becomes a nightmare. Girardi can't function on his own. That doesn't make him a bad defenseman, however. And that's why teams want him.
Yeah, I did. Way too much pressure on our D and too much time spent in our zone. Any D would've cracked under that pressure and we were playing two guys that had one arm.

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Where are we getting the money to fill holes we need when we sign all these slightly above average players to ridiculous contracts? You're looking at this too short term.
I'm actually looking at this long term with an escalating cap.

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01-25-2014, 09:02 AM
  #229
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i understand the not signing G and cally, but what are you going to get for them on the open market? we lived in lala land thinking we could get a bunch of **** for MDZ, look how that turned out..and hes an RFA and 23yrs old..

teams are locking up all their players and its harder and harder to sign FA without over paying completely because theres no one available.. Trades? unless your willing to move serious pieces your not getting **** back that can step in and play like a g or cally..

we've missed the playoffs 1 in 9 years, how are we a mediocre team or both our players are mediocre.. thorton was traded by boston at like 25yrs old bc he didnt have what it takes to win.. if we havent done ****, neither has SJ.. stop just looking at stats, they dont mean **** and don't tell the story.. it takes a lot to win a cup and a lot more then one or 2 players.. its a team full of studs with one goal in mind..
I keep hearing the argument that in the last 9 years we've missed the playoffs once. So what? Did we win anything from them? No. Were they close to winning? Once, when literally every star aligned in this team's favor in 2012, and they still couldn't do it.

It's not that hard to make the playoffs in the NHL. Saying we're usually in it doesn't do anything for me as an argument.

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01-25-2014, 09:04 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I just don't get the "same old Rangers" arguments about this, either. The Rangers really haven't been about signing their homegrown players. They've been about signing or trading for the flashy free agent (Nash, Gomez, Drury, Redden and on and on and on) instead of developing their own.

I don't think Callahan and Girardi are "generational talents" but I do think they are assets to this team. And they are. There's no reason to trade them away for draft picks instead of signing them to market value contracts.
im with you man.. bc most on here think its like a light switch to make moves and build a team and win.. everyone looks at stats, (which is so god damn overrated) thinks the grass is always greener.. andd even worse g and callly will be 29 and 30 going into next year thats old now?? but they get hurt and will fall apart? everone in the league gets hurt and misses time..

we havent accomplished **** yes.. but missing the playoffs in 1 in 9years id say we're a pretty solid team.. Flaws? of course what team doesn't!!

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01-25-2014, 09:06 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Matt Carle Place View Post
Anybody remember the nightmare that was Del Zotto-Girardi? A $6 million AAV defenseman should be able to elevate his pairings play, not be the ride-along.

Oh, and there is no shot Callahan is signing for $5 million AAV. That's less tahn a $200,000 AAV raise.
The whole reason MDZ was traded is because his decision making is absolute ass. He pinches at the wrong time, makes the bad turnover, and can make any player he ever had look bad because of defensive gaffes. Throwing that **** at Girardi's feet is nuts. Coupled with the "PMD" having 2 points in 12 playoff games, too.

Girardi, FWIW, averaged .5/pts per playoff game over the past 32 playoff games (16 points) and ~26 minutes ATOI.

Good ****ing luck replacing that.

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01-25-2014, 09:07 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
I keep hearing the argument that in the last 9 years we've missed the playoffs once. So what? Did we win anything from them? No. Were they close to winning? Once, when literally every star aligned in this team's favor in 2012, and they still couldn't do it.

It's not that hard to make the playoffs in the NHL. Saying we're usually in it doesn't do anything for me as an argument.
but your making arguments that SJ is so close to winning a cup and thorton and marleu are these stud players..

they make the playoffs every year and they get tossed out too.. so why do we think the grass is greener there?

im just saying then every team who doesn't win the cup are mediocre teams then.. basing **** off stats and thats prob the worse way to look at players and the entire picture..

everyone thought boston was stupid for trading their superstar and look at them now.. pretty sure they won a cup without joe and sj hasnt sniffed it yet..

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01-25-2014, 09:07 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Wasn't trying to make them "comparable" by using the Olympics and if anyone's being "disrespected" around here it's Callahan and THAT'S the point I was trying to make.

Calling Callahan "mediocre", "fairly average", and "couldn't hold Thornton's jockstrap" isn't a fair. They bring different things to a team and, if memory serves, Team USA with Callahan on it was an OT goal away from winning gold, too.
Well I agree with you here. One is an elite playmaking, generational 1C, the other is a 2nd liner(dare I say 3rd liner) at best on the New York Rangers.

I'm genuinely curious what you think of Lundqvist. Has he not won anything either? His accolades are on par with Thornton's, minus the Hart Trophy.

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01-25-2014, 09:09 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
I keep hearing the argument that in the last 9 years we've missed the playoffs once. So what? Did we win anything from them? No. Were they close to winning? Once, when literally every star aligned in this team's favor in 2012, and they still couldn't do it.

It's not that hard to make the playoffs in the NHL. Saying we're usually in it doesn't do anything for me as an argument.
Only one team has made the playoffs more than the NYR since the lockout. That should do something for you. Nearly 50% of teams in the league DON'T make the playoffs every year. It is "hard" in a parity/cap league.

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01-25-2014, 09:09 AM
  #235
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but your making arguments that SJ is so close to winning a cup and thorton and marleu are these stud players..

they make the playoffs every year and they get tossed out too.. so why do we think the grass is greener there?

im just saying then every team who doesn't win the cup are mediocre teams then.. basing **** off stats and thats prob the worse way to look at players and the entire picture..

everyone thought boston was stupid for trading their superstar and look at them now.. pretty sure they won a cup without joe and sj hasnt sniffed it yet..
lol where did I say SJ are going to win the cup? I called Thornton irreplaceable, which is why he got resigned to a high salary contract.

They have a hell of a lot more of the right pieces than the Rangers, that's for sure. I'm not getting into a pissing match about what team is better. How does SJ not having a cup alleviate Thornton + Marleau of their titles as great players?

What does Boston have to do with anything?

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01-25-2014, 09:11 AM
  #236
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Well I agree with you here. One is an elite playmaking, generational 1C, the other is a 2nd liner at best on the New York Rangers.

I'm genuinely curious what you think of Lundqvist. Has he not won anything either? His accolades are on par with Thornton's, minus the Hart Trophy.
"2nd liner at best". Again with the lack of respect.

As far as Lundqvist/Thornton:

Ask yourself which centers around the league you'd put on your team before Jumbo and then ask yourself which goalies you'd rather have than Lundqvist. And that's your answer.

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01-25-2014, 09:13 AM
  #237
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Only one team has made the playoffs more than the NYR since the lockout. That should do something for you. Nearly 50% of teams in the league DON'T make the playoffs every year. It is "hard" in a parity/cap league.
Pretty sure Wings and Sharks made it all years after the lockout. Rangers missed it once in 2010. Pens and Canucks have only missed it once too.

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01-25-2014, 09:16 AM
  #238
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"2nd liner at best". Again with the lack of respect.
You'd have to be a complete homer if you think he's been performing anything more than that this season. Zuccarello and Nash are far superior players.

Quote:
As far as Lundqvist/Thornton:

Ask yourself which centers around the league you'd put on your team before Jumbo and then ask yourself which goalies you'd rather have than Lundqvist. And that's your answer.
Yeah but Lundqvist hasn't won jack ****, going by what you've said about Thornton. He has a resume of one Vezina and one Olympic Gold. That's not better than Thornton's gold, Art Ross, Hart.

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01-25-2014, 09:17 AM
  #239
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lol where did I say SJ are going to win the cup? I called Thornton irreplaceable, which is why he got resigned to a high salary contract.

They have a hell of a lot more of the right pieces than the Rangers, that's for sure. I'm not getting into a pissing match about what team is better. How does SJ not having a cup alleviate Thornton + Marleau of their titles as great players?

What does Boston have to do with anything?
idk man i am just tired of seeing these stupid g and cally debates, bc theres no solid proof what their terms are, and we;re jsut speculating out of our ***** what there going to sign for..

we dont sign them they go FA, we're only going to sign replacements to fill the void but over pay someone else on FA that are half the player.. thats what will piss me off..

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01-25-2014, 09:18 AM
  #240
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The whole reason MDZ was traded is because his decision making is absolute ass. He pinches at the wrong time, makes the bad turnover, and can make any player he ever had look bad because of defensive gaffes. Throwing that **** at Girardi's feet is nuts. Coupled with the "PMD" having 2 points in 12 playoff games, too.

Girardi, FWIW, averaged .5/pts per playoff game over the past 32 playoff games (16 points) and ~26 minutes ATOI.

Good ****ing luck replacing that.
Not sure why we complain about the D. It's like complaining just to complain. McDonaugh is awesome, Staal was the exact same as McD but he got hurt. He has looked a lot better lately. Moore is another version of DZ. Hopefully he can figure it out but I'm fine with throwing him out there. Allen looked good in camp so he's an option if not. Skjei will be in CT next yr. Falk is a fine spare.

Girardi is a top shutdown RD. Tough to replace that so I imagine he signs. Klein is a solid vet , nothing flashly but will be reliable. Stralman has done a good job here but if he has to go as a UFA(which he will) then fine that's the pt of drafting McIrath. He will add nite to the D next yr

In G they are set with Hank and Cam

Do they need more offense. Yep they sure do but lets see how Kreider , Zuccarello develop.

I am for buying out Richards because they have too and signing one UFA scoring threat. I also resign Cally cause he does everything well. He is going to get 5 million somewhere guys. I rather have it be here. We would lose ALOT if he left

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01-25-2014, 09:20 AM
  #241
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This team has absolutely no offensive threats from the blueline sans McDonagh. That is a huge problem.

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01-25-2014, 09:22 AM
  #242
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Well I agree with you here. One is an elite playmaking, generational 1C, the other is a 2nd liner(dare I say 3rd liner) at best on the New York Rangers.

I'm genuinely curious what you think of Lundqvist. Has he not won anything either? His accolades are on par with Thornton's, minus the Hart Trophy.
LOL @ people making the excuse that Thornton "can't win" as opposed to Callahan, who hasn't won anything here either. Thornton was traded in 2005 by the last-placed team in hockey. Those Boston teams he was on were pretty ****ing terrible. Terrible drafting and terrible asset management. You look at the Stanley Cup winning team and none of their players were on the team with Thornton. They were all drafted after he was traded (i.e. Kessel [Seguin], Lucic, Marchand), drafted right before he was traded and didn't make the team until after he left (i.e. Bergeron and Krejci), or were picked up in FA (Chara). Tim Thomas just signed with Boston from Jokerit. Boston was able to re-tool and it had nothing to do with Thornton.

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01-25-2014, 09:27 AM
  #243
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Cally should get a bit under Dustin Brown money per year IMO. Brown has shown more. Brown is 29 and is now signed from next year at $5,875,000 per for 8 years. $47 M in total. Cally at $5,5 M for 6 years is not going to be enough I fear as it only amounts to $33M. Something will have to give, be it $$ or term. That is where we are at. I can see where it goes from here...

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01-25-2014, 09:35 AM
  #244
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I'm sorry, I don't care if he has the leadership of Herb Brooks, no ****ing intangibles are worth 6 million dollars a year, for the lack of offense he brings.

6 million dollars should be for near PPG players, Callahan will never be close to that, and I love the guy.

You're missing the point, it's not that Callahan or Girardi are bad players. It's that on a team, absolutely loaded with long and expensive contracts, we CAN'T give Girardi and Callahan contracts that you reserve for star players. If they were resigned, this team still has the same needs. A #1 center, OFD men, and another top 6 LW. When that much of the cap is taken up by players you are overpaid, you're setting yourself up for long term failure.

In what dimension of the hockey universe is Callahan worth 6 million anyway? Or Girardi, who literally can't function at a high level without a good partner, worth 6 million either? Sounds like you're overpaying to keep players you like. You save overpayments for players that can't be replaced. 50 point RW'ers and complimentary RHD can be replaced, it's not the impossible task you make it out to be.

Thornton and Marleau might not have won anything, but San Jose is a hell of a lot closer to a Stanley cup than this team is, and Thornton is irreplaceable, even at his age. Marleau isn't of the same caliber but he can still be relied on for 55-70 points a year. Bringing up them not being on their olympic teams is totally irrelevant.


Im not saying sign or trade im just curios what point per game player at this stage of the cap is only making 6 mill a yr ...... The reality is the caps still rising...as the cap rises so do salaries ... Also where are these replacements you speak of... like I said just curiious

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01-25-2014, 09:45 AM
  #245
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Im not saying sign or trade im just curios what point per game player at this stage of the cap is only making 6 mill a yr ...... The reality is the caps still rising...as the cap rises so do salaries ... Also where are these replacements you speak of... like I said just curiious
We already have two really good RW's in Zuccarello and Nash, who are more potent offensively than Callahan. A third line RW isn't hard to find, see if a kid makes it out of camp, and sign a stop gap RW just in case.

I understand that as the cap rises, so do salaries. But that doesn't soften the blow of Callahan and Girardi's inevitably overpaid contracts. We already have too much money tied up in other players. We need wiggle room to fix the holes in this team (top 6 LW, offensive defensemen, #1 center). Can't have any of that with 30 mill of your cap being taken up by 5 players.

Also, John Tavares and James Neal are both on below 6 mill contracts and well above PPG. I know it's not the norm, but the norm is becoming David Clarkson gets 5.25 million. That's not acceptable, I don't want my team to be part of that.

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01-25-2014, 09:51 AM
  #246
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We already have two really good RW's in Zuccarello and Nash, who are more potent offensively than Callahan. A third line RW isn't hard to find, see if a kid makes it out of camp, and sign a stop gap RW just in case.

I understand that as the cap rises, so do salaries. But that doesn't soften the blow of Callahan and Girardi's inevitably overpaid contracts. We already have too much money tied up in other players. We need wiggle room to fix the holes in this team (top 6 LW, offensive defensemen, #1 center). Can't have any of that with 30 mill of your cap being taken up by 5 players.

Also, John Tavares and James Neal are both on below 6 mill contracts and well above PPG. I know it's not the norm, but the norm is becoming David Clarkson gets 5.25 million. That's not acceptable, I don't want my team to be part of that.
And that takes us back to well JT is a 1st overall pick...he signed that contract as an extension off his entry level...in about 5 yrs hes gonna get PAAAIIIDDD.....And the pens lucked out with Neal... his #s are also prob slightly inflated playing on that team...

Me personally im torn on what to do.... The only way ill really be upset is if we let them walk for nothing and then over pay for others over the summer

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01-25-2014, 09:54 AM
  #247
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we've missed the playoffs 1 in 9 years, how are we a mediocre team or both our players are mediocre..
They haven't won a cup in 20 years.

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01-25-2014, 10:15 AM
  #248
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We already have two really good RW's in Zuccarello and Nash, who are more potent offensively than Callahan. A third line RW isn't hard to find, see if a kid makes it out of camp, and sign a stop gap RW just in case.

I understand that as the cap rises, so do salaries. But that doesn't soften the blow of Callahan and Girardi's inevitably overpaid contracts. We already have too much money tied up in other players. We need wiggle room to fix the holes in this team (top 6 LW, offensive defensemen, #1 center). Can't have any of that with 30 mill of your cap being taken up by 5 players.

Also, John Tavares and James Neal are both on below 6 mill contracts and well above PPG. I know it's not the norm, but the norm is becoming David Clarkson gets 5.25 million. That's not acceptable, I don't want my team to be part of that.
Neither Tavares nor Neal were in comparable situations when signing their deals.

The problem with Clarksons contract was never the dollar amount. It was the term. Everyone pretty much agrees that Clarkson has been a 2nd line player for the last couple of years, and $5.25m is the right amount for that type player on the open market. Personally, I would have been hesitant about it because I wonder about players who suddenly become that guy at 27. Sometimes success is circumstantial.

Callahan is deserving of $6m on the open market because he's a proven 2nd line player. The decision the Rangers have to make is whether or not he fits their direction going forward. It's not whether they want the player at the dollar amount, but whether they want the player at all.

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01-25-2014, 10:17 AM
  #249
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They haven't won a cup in 20 years.
In a 30 team league, that's more the norm that not.

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01-25-2014, 10:21 AM
  #250
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Neither Tavares nor Neal were in comparable situations when signing their deals.

The problem with Clarksons contract was never the dollar amount. It was the term. Everyone pretty much agrees that Clarkson has been a 2nd line player for the last couple of years, and $5.25m is the right amount for that type player on the open market. Personally, I would have been hesitant about it because I wonder about players who suddenly become that guy at 27. Sometimes success is circumstantial.

Callahan is deserving of $6m on the open market because he's a proven 2nd line player. The decision the Rangers have to make is whether or not he fits their direction going forward. It's not whether they want the player at the dollar amount, but whether they want the player at all.
He was a second line player in one season. That was his unbelievably lucky 2011-2012 season. He was a third liner every other year.

Callahan deserves 6 million on the open market because of inflated contracts given to worse players. Not because he has the skill to warrant 6 million. He's not a 6 million dollar player. I can't think of 2nd liners that make 6 million dollars.

It's a little of everything. Do we want to invest in a player that is injured every three weeks? Do we want to pay big money for a player who has nowhere to go but down? Do we want to pay this money for a player who's the third best RW on the team, with 4 RW'ers? There's a lot of reasons Callahan's contract situation is so tricky. It doesn't just boil down to "Is he an AV player?".

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