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DZ: Unfinished business

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Old
01-24-2014, 06:44 PM
  #1
Kwayry
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DZ: Unfinished business

Last thread got sidetracked by advanced stats discussion and was closed.
But there is unfinished business about DZ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
These quotes are political. The only one who may criticize him in an interview is his own coach and never in a situation like this. Why would they ever say something negative to the snake media about Del Zotto? Anything at all that they can latch on to with their sensationalist fangs? The sellers don't want to downgrade their merchandise and the buyers want to tell everyone how right this move was (and show support in their new player). The neutral parties are smart enough not to get involved. In fact, when have you ever read negative remarks about players involved in trades? Yet the reasons why they were traded are always there and seldom given in an honest response.
All right, so I think this is how the discussion went in Nashville
Scouts: Boss, We scouted this kid for years and we think "Del Zotto has the talent, but not the head to live up to his potential".
Poile: All right lads, let's trade a fan favorite, signed to a good contract for that guy.

You can't get around the fact that Poile traded for him because he, and his scouts, believed DZ to be a good Dman that has good potential and good head over his shoulders to fulfill it. The rest is hysterics from clueless fans.
Unless of course you think he is a moron who would trade a valuable asset just to prove you wrong?

And talking about his new coach.
Quote:
He explained: “We talked to Michael when he first got here, and I said: ‘Playing three in four, we’re probably not going to practice a lot. Please be patient with us. I know you’re a good power play guy, and we’ve got two pretty good units. As we get some practice time when we get back, maybe we’ll get you on a power play unit and go from there.'”

Nashville has a tradition of skillful rear guards like Ellis, Marek Zidlicky and Kimmo Timonen, who served as the club’s captain in 2006-7 and remains its career assist leader with 222. The 6-foot, 195-pound Del Zotto fits a similar mold.

“He reminds me a little bit of Kimmo with his puck skills,” Trotz said “When you watch him, you wonder if he sees the play, and then he puts the puck right on a guy’s stick. That was Kimmo’s great asset. He wouldn’t telegraph where he was putting the puck. After one viewing, I like him a lot.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/25/sp...s&emc=rss&_r=0

Those are also political quotes I reckon?

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01-24-2014, 07:22 PM
  #2
Baby Punisher
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We have witnessed players be traded away from all sorts of situations in every kind of sport that just needed to start over. That's what is happening with DZ. He wore his welcome out here, AV did not care for him & now he is with a team that wanted him. In return we get a solid player back that can chip in on both ends of the ice. Time will tell if it was the right move for both teams.

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01-24-2014, 07:28 PM
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no1curr

'bout DZ unfinished biz here.

looking forward to following his career in Nashville but his career in NY is officially under no1curr realm.

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01-24-2014, 11:40 PM
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This trade will look bad for the Rangers, the way the portion of fanbase got him as the whipping boy did not help matters, but it was terrible asset management from a PR, coaching and management standpoint.

Going into the season I would say his value was close to Shattenkirk's except that he isn't a RHD. AV imo used him in the same manner he did with Ballard. DZ's been a great dude, it wasn't like he was showy, he was home grown and did a lot of charity work, often going the extra mile. Why he was vilified the way he was is something I won't understand.

All I care about is winning so if Klein helps the Rangers win more games then I nor most fans will complain.

If it does not, then I will seriously have to question by Brassard and Pouliot got constant support for the 1st 40 games of the season when they were dogging it the entire time. Guess what?! Zucc's carrying that entire line... do they get a pass so AV can speak some French in the locker room?

Why single out DZ so you can go with the lesser commodity in John Moore? We will see this process repeat itself with John Moore, and Conor Allen will be the one taking his minutes.

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01-25-2014, 12:36 AM
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I'm not thrilled about the return, but I'm not crying over the loss either. The thing is, DZ might develop into a really solid top 4 guy, but I think it's very unlikely he develops into a top offensive guy. Offense usually comes first and the all around game comes with time. If DZ wasn't going to develop into a top offensive blueliner, he wasn't going to have a real spot on this team.

It's very, very unlikely this becomes a Zubov situation. I don't see the harm in stabilizing the defensive zone in exchange for a player who can't seem to find his niche.

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01-25-2014, 12:41 AM
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Over the next four years I think Klein will provide better defense.

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01-25-2014, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
This trade will look bad for the Rangers, the way the portion of fanbase got him as the whipping boy did not help matters, but it was terrible asset management from a PR, coaching and management standpoint.

Going into the season I would say his value was close to Shattenkirk's except that he isn't a RHD. AV imo used him in the same manner he did with Ballard. DZ's been a great dude, it wasn't like he was showy, he was home grown and did a lot of charity work, often going the extra mile. Why he was vilified the way he was is something I won't understand.

All I care about is winning so if Klein helps the Rangers win more games then I nor most fans will complain.

If it does not, then I will seriously have to question by Brassard and Pouliot got constant support for the 1st 40 games of the season when they were dogging it the entire time. Guess what?! Zucc's carrying that entire line... do they get a pass so AV can speak some French in the locker room?

Why single out DZ so you can go with the lesser commodity in John Moore? We will see this process repeat itself with John Moore, and Conor Allen will be the one taking his minutes.
Did you see Shattenkirk drill that slapshot past Lundqvist? When did Del Zotto ever do that? He never did because he doesn't have that bomb from the point.

If AV has any preference for French Canadian players, he wouldn't have send Biron down, which essentially ended his career.

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01-25-2014, 01:33 AM
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The only way MDZ's value could even come semi-close to Shattenkirk's is if you highly rate vowels in defenseman's last names.

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01-25-2014, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
This trade will look bad for the Rangers, the way the portion of fanbase got him as the whipping boy did not help matters, but it was terrible asset management from a PR, coaching and management standpoint.

Going into the season I would say his value was close to Shattenkirk's except that he isn't a RHD. AV imo used him in the same manner he did with Ballard. DZ's been a great dude, it wasn't like he was showy, he was home grown and did a lot of charity work, often going the extra mile. Why he was vilified the way he was is something I won't understand.

All I care about is winning so if Klein helps the Rangers win more games then I nor most fans will complain.

If it does not, then I will seriously have to question by Brassard and Pouliot got constant support for the 1st 40 games of the season when they were dogging it the entire time. Guess what?! Zucc's carrying that entire line... do they get a pass so AV can speak some French in the locker room?

Why single out DZ so you can go with the lesser commodity in John Moore? We will see this process repeat itself with John Moore, and Conor Allen will be the one taking his minutes.
Not even close… His value was higher - absolutely… but he was not in the same stratosphere at Shattenkirk.

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01-25-2014, 02:04 AM
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MDZ's "failure" is almost entirely on him self. He have rather regressed than improved his game, and while being stacked on Ld certainly hasn't helped him, it's not like he's been stellar when handed Staals spot for long stretches?

I'm not saying that he's garbage or anything, but he hasn't been developing into the player that he was expected to be, at this time in his career. And NYR had two options, hand him 3rd pair minutes and PP time and hope he'll thrive, then sign him at 4.5 AAV (isch) for 5 years. That would mean trading Staal, since you don't want that contract for a 3rd pair D. We chose the 2nd alternative and traded him for something that we needed, with "no risk" cap wise.

He was supposed to thrive in AV's system, he hasn't, and sooner or later you have to make the call. I believe it was the correct one that was made.

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01-25-2014, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Punisher View Post
We have witnessed players be traded away from all sorts of situations in every kind of sport that just needed to start over. That's what is happening with DZ. He wore his welcome out here, AV did not care for him & now he is with a team that wanted him. In return we get a solid player back that can chip in on both ends of the ice. Time will tell if it was the right move for both teams.
Well, you are wrong.
the problem is not whether he was worn his welcome, the problem is this fanbase is not patient enough. He was ran out of town.
Truthfully, this board has a very poor track record on talent evaluation, the list is long.
Drury, Gomex, Redden, Lisin, Tyutin, Zherdev, Dubi.
You keep hoping that lessons are learned, but they are not.
It's definitely not ok with me to say, well he was traded, let's turn the page. What lessons did we learn? As far as I can tell, none. this board is still as finicky as a 12 year old girl.
People are more interested in being proven right than the well being of the organization as a whole.
The way DZ was treated should incense a lot of people if him being railroaded cost the team a better return. But apparently, it's more important for posters to pump their chest and say, hey I was right he sucks.
I will never get than coming from a true fan.

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01-25-2014, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky Fingers View Post
MDZ's "failure" is almost entirely on him self. He have rather regressed than improved his game, and while being stacked on Ld certainly hasn't helped him, it's not like he's been stellar when handed Staals spot for long stretches?

I'm not saying that he's garbage or anything, but he hasn't been developing into the player that he was expected to be, at this time in his career. And NYR had two options, hand him 3rd pair minutes and PP time and hope he'll thrive, then sign him at 4.5 AAV (isch) for 5 years. That would mean trading Staal, since you don't want that contract for a 3rd pair D. We chose the 2nd alternative and traded him for something that we needed, with "no risk" cap wise.

He was supposed to thrive in AV's system, he hasn't, and sooner or later you have to make the call. I believe it was the correct one that was made.
You are just revising history. he thrived when he played top pair or top 4 when Staal was injured. On many nights he was the Rangers best D on the ice. That's just the reality.

Let me ask this obvious question to me.
Which is more impressive, DZ's 41 point season or McDonagh 44 (on pace) this season?
2 years ago, the PP was bottom 10 and the system he played was a six goalie system where the number 1 priority was to get puck out of the zone along the walls.
this season, the PP is top 10 and the system is more offense friendly.
I think DZ's offensive output 2 years ago is more impressive.

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01-25-2014, 02:53 AM
  #13
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He never turned into Erik Karlsson therefore he sucks at offense and is a bust.

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01-25-2014, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
He never turned into Erik Karlsson therefore he sucks at offense and is a bust.
or, and I'm just spit-balling here: he hadn't developed into the PP player the Rangers were hoping for, he was behind mcD and Staal on LD chart while being horrible at RD and was going to become a RFA wanting a raise and so was shipped out for a solid D man on a solid contract who filled a need....

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01-25-2014, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike14 View Post
or, and I'm just spit-balling here: he hadn't developed into the PP player the Rangers were hoping for, he was behind mcD and Staal on LD chart while being horrible at RD and was going to become a RFA wanting a raise and so was shipped out for a solid D man on a solid contract who filled a need....
Haven't you read this thread? Logic doesn't belong here, get out

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01-25-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Well, you are wrong.
the problem is not whether he was worn his welcome, the problem is this fanbase is not patient enough. He was ran out of town.
Truthfully, this board has a very poor track record on talent evaluation, the list is long.
Drury, Gomex, Redden, Lisin, Tyutin, Zherdev, Dubi.
You keep hoping that lessons are learned, but they are not.
It's definitely not ok with me to say, well he was traded, let's turn the page. What lessons did we learn? As far as I can tell, none. this board is still as finicky as a 12 year old girl.
People are more interested in being proven right than the well being of the organization as a whole.
The way DZ was treated should incense a lot of people if him being railroaded cost the team a better return. But apparently, it's more important for posters to pump their chest and say, hey I was right he sucks.
I will never get than coming from a true fan.
You really believe that DZ was moved because the fan base was intolerant of his play? What is Sathers history has indicated that would be a factor in his decisions? He never traded Poti or Malik, who faced far more ire than DZ ever has. He only traded Roszival when it was clear he had lost his spot on the roster. He still hasn't dealt Boyle and won't unless it's a purely business decision.

Fans have a very exaggerated sense of to what extent they can effect roster changes. The truth is that they can't. Particularly not with this GM. Players don't get run out of town by fans. They do by management.

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01-25-2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You really believe that DZ was moved because the fan base was intolerant of his play? .
Yea that made me stop and re-read a few times. We are meaningless as it pertains to a decision like this. Anyone who thinks we had any affect is nuts. NUTS! Nuttier than squirrel poop!

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01-25-2014, 12:01 PM
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Prior to this season, DZ was a 2nd pair (23 min a night don't lie) offensive defenseman for a team that won more rounds in the playoffs than Shattenkirk's St. Louis team did.

They both played top 4 roles on winning teams, while bringing ~.05 ppg from the back end on playoff teams with records well above 500. Take those whipping boy googles off and see things for what they are worth.

DZ's playoff numbers are better than Shattenkirk's too. I'll always support a local boy that makes it to the big leagues, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I mean Rosival was hated here, but he hasn't exactly missed the playoffs post lockout often. He sucks so bad that he couldn't possibly be a part of a winning team right? Look at how many playoff games he's played post lockout... he was flogged here to appease the a portion of fanbase that displaced their frustration onto him.

I will take Shattenkirk over DZ because of him being an RHD that can shoot through screens glove side, and not saying he is an inferior player to DZ, but I think you boys can take those whipping boy glasses off and redirect them to a player on the roster now.

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01-25-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You really believe that DZ was moved because the fan base was intolerant of his play? What is Sathers history has indicated that would be a factor in his decisions? He never traded Poti or Malik, who faced far more ire than DZ ever has. He only traded Roszival when it was clear he had lost his spot on the roster. He still hasn't dealt Boyle and won't unless it's a purely business decision.

Fans have a very exaggerated sense of to what extent they can effect roster changes. The truth is that they can't. Particularly not with this GM. Players don't get run out of town by fans. They do by management.
Pretty much. When the fans start really riding some player in the Garden for a lengthy period of time it 'might' (operative word) push Sather to move him to another team--or maybe even not. I think DZ's production couldn't keep up with the expectations the team had for him and especially relative to the increasing amounts of $'s the team was going to have to shell out to him to keep him in the fold. DZ was at least going to be making what Klein is making now--starting next season and possibly quite a lot more. Additionally the Rangers sorted out their right-left problem somewhat--and additionally to that was moving a player that the coaching staff wasn't fond of.

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01-25-2014, 12:52 PM
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Social media and how fans can interact with teams and players directly can change how a team operates. It's been a few years since the boobirds were squaking at a defenseman. That started to happen when Del Zotto's name was announced after assists post-TOR game.

Didn't last long.

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01-25-2014, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
Social media and how fans can interact with teams and players directly can change how a team operates. It's been a few years since the boobirds were squaking at a defenseman. That started to happen when Del Zotto's name was announced after assists post-TOR game.

Didn't last long.
wait, Sather pays attention to social media? C'mon. Also, the boo birds at the Garden didn't put Del Zotto on the block back in October. They didn't exist.

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01-25-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Well, you are wrong.
the problem is not whether he was worn his welcome, the problem is this fanbase is not patient enough. He was ran out of town.
Truthfully, this board has a very poor track record on talent evaluation, the list is long.
Drury, Gomex, Redden, Lisin, Tyutin, Zherdev, Dubi.
You keep hoping that lessons are learned, but they are not.
It's definitely not ok with me to say, well he was traded, let's turn the page. What lessons did we learn? As far as I can tell, none. this board is still as finicky as a 12 year old girl.
People are more interested in being proven right than the well being of the organization as a whole.
The way DZ was treated should incense a lot of people if him being railroaded cost the team a better return. But apparently, it's more important for posters to pump their chest and say, hey I was right he sucks.
I will never get than coming from a true fan.
He wasn't getting any better sitting in the press box. DZ was playing better lately, but was a few bad plays away from being benched again. Av showed very little patience with him. I'm not saying the trade is right or wrong. Time will tell. What I saying is that it wasn't working out for DZ in NY anymore. Sather isn't going to fire the coach to appease DZ, he is going to trade him.

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01-25-2014, 02:12 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
Social media and how fans can interact with teams and players directly can change how a team operates. It's been a few years since the boobirds were squaking at a defenseman. That started to happen when Del Zotto's name was announced after assists post-TOR game.

Didn't last long.
Anyone running a team who lets the fans opinion influence his team decisions is a ****ing idiot.

So basically, Glen Sather.

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01-25-2014, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You really believe that DZ was moved because the fan base was intolerant of his play? What is Sathers history has indicated that would be a factor in his decisions? He never traded Poti or Malik, who faced far more ire than DZ ever has. He only traded Roszival when it was clear he had lost his spot on the roster. He still hasn't dealt Boyle and won't unless it's a purely business decision.

Fans have a very exaggerated sense of to what extent they can effect roster changes. The truth is that they can't. Particularly not with this GM. Players don't get run out of town by fans. They do by management.

I don't believe that the fans had anything to do with the decision, but I DO think the decision and the fans' reaction to it is indicative of why this team is and will continue to be mediocre. For all the people who come on here and ***** about Sather, the irony is that he is running this team in EXACTLY the same way this board would run the team. No patience. No plan. Too much "what have you done for me lately" and not enough "where can we be in two years time." Too much obsession with big names and shiny new toys, and not enough focus on production (particularly when it really matters).

So yeah, I agree with you that the fans had nothing to do with MDZ's departure. The fact that he was moved, particularly in light of the return, just reinforces something that has been obvious for years around here. This board loves to hate on Sather, when the reality is that Sather runs this team EXACTLY like ~80% of you would.

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01-25-2014, 03:40 PM
  #25
Tawnos
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I tend to think things would be faaaaaar worse with just about any of us running the team. It's much easier to sit outside and judge these decisions than it is to actually make them.

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