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Old
01-25-2014, 03:09 PM
  #26
fredrikstad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
This trade will look bad for the Rangers, the way the portion of fanbase got him as the whipping boy did not help matters, but it was terrible asset management from a PR, coaching and management standpoint.

Going into the season I would say his value was close to Shattenkirk's except that he isn't a RHD. AV imo used him in the same manner he did with Ballard. DZ's been a great dude, it wasn't like he was showy, he was home grown and did a lot of charity work, often going the extra mile. Why he was vilified the way he was is something I won't understand.

All I care about is winning so if Klein helps the Rangers win more games then I nor most fans will complain.

If it does not, then I will seriously have to question by Brassard and Pouliot got constant support for the 1st 40 games of the season when they were dogging it the entire time. Guess what?! Zucc's carrying that entire line... do they get a pass so AV can speak some French in the locker room?

Why single out DZ so you can go with the lesser commodity in John Moore? We will see this process repeat itself with John Moore, and Conor Allen will be the one taking his minutes.
Del Zotto, Zuccs and Mc Donaugh are close friends. Let's hope this trade doesn't affect the two reminding players in a negative way. I believe thriving is a part of the package of where you are as an player.
And I wish DZ good luck with his career.


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01-25-2014, 04:35 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You really believe that DZ was moved because the fan base was intolerant of his play? What is Sathers history has indicated that would be a factor in his decisions? He never traded Poti or Malik, who faced far more ire than DZ ever has. He only traded Roszival when it was clear he had lost his spot on the roster. He still hasn't dealt Boyle and won't unless it's a purely business decision.

Fans have a very exaggerated sense of to what extent they can effect roster changes. The truth is that they can't. Particularly not with this GM. Players don't get run out of town by fans. They do by management.
DZ was ran out of town by AV with a big assist from Sather (See below), the fans were cheering all the way though.

How can you, with a straight face as a coach, state that DZ is not producing when you put him on his weak side? That's on the coach. Your job is to put your players in position to succeed, he has not done that with DZ. He kept putting him in position to fail, knowing full well that he is not good on the right side. Then when he struggles, he gets benched.

I said back in the fall that it doesn't look like the team is looking to trade DZ otherwise they would showcase him in the best light possible, i.e. put him where he is good at and let his value increase. Otherwise, it's a piss poor asset management. Guess what, they were showcasing him in the worst way possible.

Now contrast that with how Pouillot was handled, he kept getting chance after chance and he kept crapping the bed, and got more chances.

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Originally Posted by Baby Punisher View Post
He wasn't getting any better sitting in the press box. DZ was playing better lately, but was a few bad plays away from being benched again. Av showed very little patience with him. I'm not saying the trade is right or wrong. Time will tell. What I saying is that it wasn't working out for DZ in NY anymore. Sather isn't going to fire the coach to appease DZ, he is going to trade him.
Well you missed the whole point. Nobody is asking for Sather to fire AV to appease DZ, that's a straw man argument, The coach's job is know the strengths and weaknesses of his players and to accentuate the strenghts.
DZ belonged on the left side, all AV had to do was watch tape. You'd think that between AV and Ulfie they would figure it out quickly.

Do you know why DZ played better lately? Because he played where he is good at, on the left side. Why did it take this long for AV to figure it out?


Finally, I'd like to comment on Sather, I usually stay clear of blaming Sather for every thing because it's useless, he is the GM, he won't be fired. But what was the point of getting Moore in the Gabby trade? With McDonagh, Staal, DZ on the left side, where does he fit? All I heard in the DZ trade from sather was how they needed a RHD to balance out the D. No **** sherlock! Where were you last year when you had the chance?
If he gets a RHD instead of Moore all this non sense doesn't happen. So yeah, I kinda agree with those that say there is no plan, I just wish they won't keep repeating it on every thread and every other post, it's redundant.

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01-25-2014, 04:37 PM
  #28
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All this hubbub over Del Zotto, only the Rangers board.

It was quite clear for some time that Del Zotto had played himself into trade territory. He was playing decent hockey before being moved, but wasn't providing what we needed, and his lack of being able to play the right side was a detriment to his status on the team. We got a player back who balances out the D and is cost controlled for the duration of his prime years. It's that simple. People making this out to be more than a run of the mill trade need to step back and reevaluate.

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01-25-2014, 04:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by mike14 View Post
or, and I'm just spit-balling here: he hadn't developed into the PP player the Rangers were hoping for, he was behind mcD and Staal on LD chart while being horrible at RD and was going to become a RFA wanting a raise and so was shipped out for a solid D man on a solid contract who filled a need....
That's not what I meant. People talk of Del Zotto as if he was the most incompetent offensive player they've ever seen play. Meanwhile McDonagh is on pace for 45 points and he's the next Ray Bourque.

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01-25-2014, 04:41 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
That's not what I meant. People talk of Del Zotto as if he was the most incompetent offensive player they've ever seen play. Meanwhile McDonagh is on pace for 45 points and he's the next Ray Bourque.
Likely because he's an elite defensive player to go along with above average production.

McDonagh is special.

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01-25-2014, 04:44 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by BrianBoyle View Post
Likely because he's an elite defensive player to go along with above average production.

McDonagh is special.
That's irrelevant, I'm talking about offensive ability, I'm not comparing their defensive games.

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01-25-2014, 04:44 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianBoyle View Post
All this hubbub over Del Zotto, only the Rangers board.

It was quite clear for some time that Del Zotto had played himself into trade territory. He was playing decent hockey before being moved, but wasn't providing what we needed, and his lack of being able to play the right side was a detriment to his status on the team. We got a player back who balances out the D and is cost controlled for the duration of his prime years. It's that simple. People making this out to be more than a run of the mill trade need to step back and reevaluate.
I disagree, he was put on the trade territory by how AV managed him.

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01-25-2014, 04:50 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
I disagree, he was put on the trade territory by how AV managed him.
That's such ********, he's been thrown around in trade rumours for over a year, prior to the hiring of Vigneault.

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01-25-2014, 04:54 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by BrianBoyle View Post
That's such ********, he's been thrown around in trade rumours for over a year, prior to the hiring of Vigneault.
Was he talked about in trade discussions? Sure, he has a skillset that a lot of teams would want and given the depth on the left side on the Rangers D, it's not surprising.
What happened to his value under AV is kinda the point though.

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01-25-2014, 06:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
I disagree, he was put on the trade territory by how AV managed him.
I really don't think this is an either/or proposition. He wasn't put in a position to succeed by the coach, but he didn't earn the right to be put in that position either. Did John Moore? What does it matter? We aren't talking about John Moore. DZ didn't do enough to force AV's hand, which is what is required of a player fighting for his spot on the roster.

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01-26-2014, 03:35 AM
  #36
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he's going to Nashville and his partner is going to be Seth Jones who can shore up or hide any of DZ's deficiencies all the while DZ will get better and play more confident with a competent partner not named John Moore. He's gonna do great and score 30-40 points a season and grow in Nashville's system. Trotz is also a very smart coach who will be able to use DZ correctly. Some would say DZ didn't earn a better chance playing under AV but bottom line is we are trading him away and it's the coaches job to get the best out of his players. It's a catch 22. DZ is one of those players that needs to be built up. He can't just knock the coaches socks off out the gate. I found it incredibly smart of Trotz to tell him up front that he isn't going to get PP time under they've had time to practice and for DZ to be patient with HIM. It's a very smart way of saying that Trotz will have patience with DZ.

These are all conditions (elite partner, coach, confidence, patience) that would not be afforded to DZ in NY so the Preds are going to get a good deal. Klein is going to be a favorite with us as well so I still keep looking back at this trade thinking it was a win win deal.

Nashville fans saw that DZ is able to make clean passes coming out of the zone so they are already pleased with what they've got. I'm guessing that a big part of what makes their system work down there.

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01-26-2014, 04:36 AM
  #37
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My god. Del Zotto had to go because he was too expensive to be a 3rd pairing D-man, and Sather goes and trades him for an even more expensive Kevin Klein! In what universe does this make a lick of sense?

Not to mention Klein is both worse and older than MDZ!

Brutal trade, not the news you wanted when you returned from vacation. I would honestly have preferred a 2nd round pick, Klein has negative value to me considering the Rangers roster make up and cap situation.

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01-26-2014, 04:48 AM
  #38
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My god. Del Zotto had to go because he was too expensive to be a 3rd pairing D-man, and Sather goes and trades him for an even more expensive Kevin Klein! In what universe does this make a lick of sense?

Not to mention Klein is both worse and older than MDZ!

Brutal trade, not the news you wanted when you returned from vacation. I would honestly have preferred a 2nd round pick, Klein has negative value to me considering the Rangers roster make up and cap situation.
wha??? DZ's qualifying offer is $2.9m, the same figure Klein is signed to for the next four years. As of July 1 it is incredibly doubtful that Klein is more expensive. Also, you can debate the merits of F men forever but you'd be hard pressed to quantify the Klein is 'worse'. Poorer offensively sure, but I know who I'd want in a defensive situation

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01-26-2014, 05:45 AM
  #39
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Shattenkirk is on par with McDonagh. DZ has never been at that level. Other teams noticed the inconsistencies. Del Zotto had ample opportunities to establish himself as the PP guy. The Rangers had no one else. They still have no one else. He failed miserably. PMD? Where? Elite skater? Where? The Rangers should have moved him earlier before the other teams caught on but it was too late. It wasn't easy with the numerous injuries to Staal but they should have cut bait earlier. People like to play I told you so game around here. Last summer I felt the Rangers should moved this player. It was time to move on. Oh the Rangers can't trade MDZ because he is their only puck moving D.

DZ is in FIFTH year. I don't care if he is just 24. Five years in the NHL. His career is like the stock market. Up and down. Big swings.

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01-26-2014, 07:12 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
he's going to Nashville and his partner is going to be Seth Jones who can shore up or hide any of DZ's deficiencies all the while DZ will get better and play more confident with a competent partner not named John Moore. He's gonna do great and score 30-40 points a season and grow in Nashville's system. Trotz is also a very smart coach who will be able to use DZ correctly. Some would say DZ didn't earn a better chance playing under AV but bottom line is we are trading him away and it's the coaches job to get the best out of his players. It's a catch 22. DZ is one of those players that needs to be built up. He can't just knock the coaches socks off out the gate. I found it incredibly smart of Trotz to tell him up front that he isn't going to get PP time under they've had time to practice and for DZ to be patient with HIM. It's a very smart way of saying that Trotz will have patience with DZ.

These are all conditions (elite partner, coach, confidence, patience) that would not be afforded to DZ in NY so the Preds are going to get a good deal. Klein is going to be a favorite with us as well so I still keep looking back at this trade thinking it was a win win deal.

Nashville fans saw that DZ is able to make clean passes coming out of the zone so they are already pleased with what they've got. I'm guessing that a big part of what makes their system work down there.
A Del Zotto capable of scoring 30-40 points a year for Nashville when everything is going right for him is the Del Zotto we pretty much had when things were going right for him here. So you're saying he'd reached his potential which is pretty much the same thing I said when I said he'd plateaued. Well he regressed under AV. We're paying $2.55 mil for his best game this year and getting something other than his best. Next year we'd be paying at least $2.9 mil for some more of that or maybe even quite a bit more $'s as he was arbitration eligible.

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01-26-2014, 12:54 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Shattenkirk is on par with McDonagh. DZ has never been at that level. Other teams noticed the inconsistencies. Del Zotto had ample opportunities to establish himself as the PP guy. The Rangers had no one else. They still have no one else. He failed miserably. PMD? Where? Elite skater? Where? The Rangers should have moved him earlier before the other teams caught on but it was too late. It wasn't easy with the numerous injuries to Staal but they should have cut bait earlier. People like to play I told you so game around here. Last summer I felt the Rangers should moved this player. It was time to move on. Oh the Rangers can't trade MDZ because he is their only puck moving D.

DZ is in FIFTH year. I don't care if he is just 24. Five years in the NHL. His career is like the stock market. Up and down. Big swings.

Hi Glen. Make sure you stop by this thread in a couple of years, when MDZ is showing himself to be a player we could desperately use and Klein is still a bottom pairing D. Then we can play the I told you so game again.

Incidentally, MDZ's production relative to PP time this year has been on par with McD, who has emerged as some offensive juggernaut according to some folks on here. But you go right on ahead ripping him for "only" consistently producing at a 35-40 point rate on an offensively putrid team when no other PMD the Rangers have had in the last decade has been able to do that (out of the literally dozens they have drafted or signed to be that guy).

Also--He's 23.

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01-26-2014, 05:33 PM
  #42
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Prucha 2.0 - We are lucky anyone gave anything for Del Zotto - he is too mentally beyond the void to replenish his career

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01-26-2014, 05:35 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Shattenkirk is on par with McDonagh. DZ has never been at that level. Other teams noticed the inconsistencies. Del Zotto had ample opportunities to establish himself as the PP guy. The Rangers had no one else. They still have no one else. He failed miserably. PMD? Where? Elite skater? Where? The Rangers should have moved him earlier before the other teams caught on but it was too late. It wasn't easy with the numerous injuries to Staal but they should have cut bait earlier. People like to play I told you so game around here. Last summer I felt the Rangers should moved this player. It was time to move on. Oh the Rangers can't trade MDZ because he is their only puck moving D.

DZ is in FIFTH year. I don't care if he is just 24. Five years in the NHL. His career is like the stock market. Up and down. Big swings.
Shattenkirk is not on par with McDonagh at ALL ROFL.

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01-26-2014, 05:54 PM
  #44
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Prucha 2.0 - We are lucky anyone gave anything for Del Zotto - he is too mentally beyond the void to replenish his career
Haha, wut.

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01-26-2014, 05:59 PM
  #45
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Hi Glen. Make sure you stop by this thread in a couple of years, when MDZ is showing himself to be a player we could desperately use and Klein is still a bottom pairing D. Then we can play the I told you so game again.

Incidentally, MDZ's production relative to PP time this year has been on par with McD, who has emerged as some offensive juggernaut according to some folks on here. But you go right on ahead ripping him for "only" consistently producing at a 35-40 point rate on an offensively putrid team when no other PMD the Rangers have had in the last decade has been able to do that (out of the literally dozens they have drafted or signed to be that guy).

Also--He's 23.
You state that pretty matter-of-factly for a player who is wildly inconsistent and has shown to be weak mentally. MDZ makes a great outlet pass (when he does it) and isn't really great at anything else. He may put up points when surrounded with the right players, but your white knighting for him is over the top (as are a lot of people's criticisms).

McDonagh has a great skill set for the PP, and it shows.

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01-26-2014, 10:14 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
You state that pretty matter-of-factly for a player who is wildly inconsistent and has shown to be weak mentally. MDZ makes a great outlet pass (when he does it) and isn't really great at anything else. He may put up points when surrounded with the right players, but your white knighting for him is over the top (as are a lot of people's criticisms).

McDonagh has a great skill set for the PP, and it shows.
And you state pretty matter of factly that he is "weak mentally." You note his inconsistency as a criticism without realizing/accepting two important facts.

1- It is a RARE 23 year old defenseman who IS consistent (that's part of what makes McDonagh so remarkable). Most of the best PMD's playing right now didn't do jack until their 23-25 year old seasons.

2- People routinely fail to accept that Del Zotto's usage has been wildly inconsistent as well. He's really never had a regular partner, and the partners he HAS had have usually been less than quality (Gilroy, Hamr, Moore, etc)--the ONLY times that DZ has had a decent partner have come when he was played on his off side with Staal or when he played on the 2nd pair in place of Staal. So in short, the only time DZ got regular time on his comfortable side with a good partner, he played like beast.

You can criticize my "white knighting" the player all you want (never heard the term before--what's the origin?), but I stand by it. In a year or two I believe we will REALLY regret this trade. I've been right on (Dubinsky's rebound) and way off (Prucha's decline) in the past, so time will tell on this one, but I tend to have a pretty good eye for defensemen.

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01-26-2014, 10:36 PM
  #47
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Hummm, I am not sure if this is really rb or not, not his usual tidy posts.
I mean it's fine to disagree on DZ's value but some of the facts are just off

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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
DZ is in FIFTH year. I don't care if he is just 24. Five years in the NHL. His career is like the stock market. Up and down. Big swings.
DZ is 23 and his career looks like a regular career to me (outside of this year).
He played well in his first year, had a sophomore slump, then had 2 pretty consistent years after that.

Quote:
Shattenkirk is on par with McDonagh. DZ has never been at that level.
I question the use of the word never.
1 - Shatternkirk is not on par with Mcdonagh.
2 - Technically, DZ was the better D of the 2 in his rookie year, since he was in the NHL and they were not. He also received some consideration for the Calder, they never have.
3 - 2 years ago, I'd say DZ and Shatty were about the same level, you may disagree, but the Norris voters disagree with you

#11 Mcdonagh
#12 DZ
#18 Shatty

Quote:
Other teams noticed the inconsistencies. ...The Rangers should have moved him earlier before the other teams caught on but it was too late. It wasn't easy with the numerous injuries to Staal but they should have cut bait earlier.
There are 2 contradictions here
1 - Which is it, were teams aware of his inconsistencies or not.
2 - Nowadays everybody scouts everybody, so I don't believe there will be teams that make trades unawares of what they are trading for.

Quote:
Del Zotto had ample opportunities to establish himself as the PP guy. The Rangers had no one else. They still have no one else. He failed miserably. PMD? Where? Elite skater? Where?
You know what else the Rangers didn't have? A clue on how to run the PP. The PP was in the bottom 10 every year Torts was coach. You want to blame it on DZ? Sure, but I'd blame it on the system.
Whoever said he was an elite skater?

Quote:
People like to play I told you so game around here.
And?

Quote:
Last summer I felt the Rangers should moved this player. It was time to move on. Oh the Rangers can't trade MDZ because he is their only puck moving D.
Ahh you mean you too ...

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01-26-2014, 10:44 PM
  #48
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Shattenkirk is not on par with McDonagh at ALL ROFL.
im assuming (hoping) he means offensively

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01-27-2014, 01:30 AM
  #49
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I hated to see Del Zoto get traded but the kid needed a change unfortunately he became the whipping boy for the Ranger defense when the real culprit is Dan Girardi. Girardi showed his true colors when he didn't come to Gaborik defense in Philly. The Ranger defense hasn't been the same since they lost Michael Sauer. I see why Sather traded for Klein since he is a dependable defensemen with a decent contract but if they sign Girardi to a 5 to 6 million dollar a yr deal this will set this team back, unload this slow footed defensemen and sign Stralman who will be worth every Penny at a fraction of the cost to the signing of Girardi. I wish only the best to Del Zoto because he was one of the few Rangers who wouldn't back down clearing out the crease or throwing a check.

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01-27-2014, 04:06 AM
  #50
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1. Mcdonagh


2. Shattenkirk







3. MDZ

Shattenkirk isn't Mcdonagh, but he's closer to Mcdonagh than MDZ…

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