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Trade Rumor Thread XIII

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Old
01-25-2014, 09:13 PM
  #301
Ollie Queen
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Faulk also would instantly become top pair RHD.

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01-25-2014, 10:17 PM
  #302
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After dealing defenceman Michael Del Zotto, the next Ranger out the door could be blueliner Dan Girardi. He isn’t close to signing
http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/01/25/...ie-ryan-miller

The Rangers can't lose Girardi for nothing. The Rangers know what it will cost to sign him. Pay him or trade him.

Quote:
#CBJ POHOP John Davidson and GM Jarmo Kekalainen watched COL @ FLA on Friday. Davidson came home today, Kekalainen went to COL @ TB tonight.
https://twitter.com/Aportzline/statu...88300764684289

Stastny? Columbus has the young assets with all of the #1 picks from last year and D to deal. They will pay to keep him.

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Old
01-25-2014, 11:45 PM
  #303
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Good thing the "news" on Girardi is from the Ottawa Sun and Garrioch. So what that really means is Girardi will resign by the end of this coming week.

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Old
01-26-2014, 02:11 AM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Stewart would be a major reclamation project. He's looked downright awful recently in St. Louis. I think he played 6 minutes in their game today. $4.1M for one more season. I do think he'd be a better fit in this system though.

I also don't think it would be financially feasible -- at least without being ridiculously close to the cap or skimping on D -- to bring in both of those players while giving Callahan the ~$6M deal he likely wants.
Would be tight but possible
Boyle would be a cap casualty though:

FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($2.600m) / Derek Stepan ($3.075m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Chris Stewart ($4.150m) / Paul Stastny ($7.000m) / Mats Zuccarello ($3.000m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / J.T. Miller ($0.894m) / Ryan Callahan ($6.000m)
Daniel Carcillo ($0.900m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.675m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Spare (goon or kid)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.800m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Kevin Klein ($2.900m)
John Moore ($1.400m) / Conor Allen or Big Mac ($0.925m)
Justin Falk ($0.900m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.500m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)

BUYOUTS
Brad Richards ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,640,000; BONUSES: $1,285,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,460,000

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Old
01-26-2014, 06:09 AM
  #305
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All of the projections with Callahan,Girardi and a $7M center give you the same current team. In the range of $40M invested in 5 players.

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Old
01-26-2014, 06:21 AM
  #306
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Kevin Allen of USA Today looked at trading either Callahan or Girardi for futures and trading the other player for a signed player(s).

He wrote a good article in December

Quote:
The case to trade them

Gritty Callahan and Girardi were both symbolic of Tortorella’s style of play. Girardi seems to be having less impact under coach Alain Vigneault. Trading captain Callahan further symbolizes the move in another direction under Vigneault.

The Rangers are still in the hunt to finish third in the Metropolitan, but it might be possible for them to stay in that hunt and still trade these guys. With many teams fighting salary cap issues, the Rangers might be able to get a veteran and a prospect and/or draft pick in return for each of those players. You could trade one for veteran help and the other for draft picks and prospects.

There is a league-wide romance with both of those players because of their intangibles. Both seem to be more valuable in the playoffs. If the Rangers just let it play out, they could leave New York. They would be among the hottest free agents. They would both get big offers.

The Rangers would have more salary cap room if they leave next summer, but no extra prospect or draft pick. Girardi’s situation under Vigneault might simply be a square peg-round hole situation.
The Rangers did trade for Klein because they liked his contract. Who is to say they can't acquire another signed player in a trade for Girardi or Callahan?

Quote:
The case not to trade them

These are unique players, and the Rangers will struggle to replace them the minute they trade them. GMs are constantly looking for scoring wingers who hit. Callahan is one of the best of the banging wingers. Every coach loves a shutdown guy like Girardi. One would guess that Tortorella would love to have him in Vancouver.

Everyone saw how effective Girardi could be over the past couple of seasons. He didn’t suddenly forget how to play. It would seem to be in the Rangers’ best interest for Vigneault and Girardi to figure out how to work together to get Girardi back being the force he has been in the past. He’s only 29.

The Rangers are not a rebuilding team. They are supposed to be a contending team, and these two players were built for postseason competition.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/12/shou...i-nhl-preview/

The Rangers aren't a contending team. That is the issue.

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Old
01-26-2014, 06:45 AM
  #307
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For a player built for the post season, Callahan has a strange habit of disappearing every year there.

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Old
01-26-2014, 06:46 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Khelvan View Post
Buying out Richards and then signing Stastny would be a huge upgrade. How realistic is that, though? There's going to be a huge bidding war for Stastny. He seems exactly like the kind of player the Rangers need.
I don't at all think that this is a given.

BR is a core piece of our PP on the point. Our PP is doing well now and he is on both units.

Statsny doesn't replace BR on the point of the PP.

Statsny is a good 5 on 5 center. But let's also remember that we would be making him one of the best paid players in the game to get him. We all know the NY hype we would see. Statsny basically is a 55-70 pts player.

Many players need time to adjust. We are a low scoring team. Let's say that 60-65 pts is reasonable from Statsny. A slow start and if he needs some time to adjust, we should expect 40-50 pts from him. It's instantly Drury/Gomez situation all over again.

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Old
01-26-2014, 07:52 AM
  #309
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Callahan is not worth 6M, guy can no longer stay healthy and now his production is dropping too.. On pace for 36 points in his walk year... Walk is the right word there.

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Old
01-26-2014, 07:59 AM
  #310
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It's like 7 years ago we let Jagr walk because he wasn't the future etc. JJ was old at that point, no doubt. He would still be leading this team in scoring by a wide margin though.

Let's just colour me sceptic that it's soooo easy to just dump two core guys on a worthless market, gather some c-tier assets and then come back much better in 24 months.

Decisions needs to be made. Preferebly we could tie up these guys long term on a decent AAV.

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Old
01-26-2014, 08:34 AM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
It's like 7 years ago we let Jagr walk because he wasn't the future etc. JJ was old at that point, no doubt. He would still be leading this team in scoring by a wide margin though.

Let's just colour me sceptic that it's soooo easy to just dump two core guys on a worthless market, gather some c-tier assets and then come back much better in 24 months.

Decisions needs to be made. Preferebly we could tie up these guys long term on a decent AAV.
and the market gets weaker as other teams sign their own UFA's like Thornton and Marleau

We have to realize the league has parity. Look at the East right now, 4th seed to 13th is anyones guess.

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Old
01-26-2014, 09:08 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post

The Rangers aren't a contending team. That is the issue.
Of course they are a "contending" team.

I think some of you forget the pre lockout teams that really weren't in contention.

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Old
01-26-2014, 09:10 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Love MZA but "far superior"? No.





What have I said about Thornton? That he sucks? That he's not a 1C player? That he's not supremely talented? Nope, nope and nope.

Some of you are turning my Olympic sentence about Callahan into a Ryan VS Joe debate which is ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT. My point was Callahan isn't some schlub that's expendable.

Callahan has made his 2nd Olympic team - he's not "average", he's not "mediocre", he's not "can't hold XYZ's jockstrap". Give credit where credit is due - the guy is a two time Olympian because he ISN'T those things. And if you want to bury your head in the sand about Thornton and what followed him around for years (awful in the playoffs and his team's underachieving) then you haven't been following San Jose for very long. Has he done better in the past few years? Absolutely and he's an excellent player. And if had to choose one or the other, it wouldn't take very long. That doesn't mean that Callahan should be traded for a late 1st round pick and a B prospect. He shouldn't be. That's the point.

And do you want to do comparative rosters of who Lundqvist has had in front of him and the teams that San Jose has had since the lockout and who has really underachieved and not won when they were "supposed to"? Sorry, comparing Lundqvist to Thornton is completely apples and oranges and if either franchise has achieved less when more was expected it's San Jose in a landslide with their generational 1C. You can like that or not. It's the truth.
You are quite misinformed about Thornton.

This post sums it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Carle Place View Post
LOL @ people making the excuse that Thornton "can't win" as opposed to Callahan, who hasn't won anything here either. Thornton was traded in 2005 by the last-placed team in hockey. Those Boston teams he was on were pretty ****ing terrible. Terrible drafting and terrible asset management. You look at the Stanley Cup winning team and none of their players were on the team with Thornton. They were all drafted after he was traded (i.e. Kessel [Seguin], Lucic, Marchand), drafted right before he was traded and didn't make the team until after he left (i.e. Bergeron and Krejci), or were picked up in FA (Chara). Tim Thomas just signed with Boston from Jokerit. Boston was able to re-tool and it had nothing to do with Thornton.
The Sharks always ended up losing to better teams anyways. Just like the Rangers.

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Old
01-26-2014, 09:28 AM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
You are quite misinformed about Thornton.
That post addresses nothing about what I said about Thornton.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
This post sums it up. The Sharks always ended up losing to better teams anyways. Just like the Rangers.
So, when the Sharks finished 1st overall and won the Presidents trophy and were bounced in the first round by the eighth seed they lost to a "better team"?

This post is blatantly wrong and it's pretty clear who's "misinformed".

The Sharks finished with 105+ points for 5 consecutive years and never made it to the finals. If you've watched Sharks games consistently over that span, which I have, you'd know what the talk was and what the expectations were. Just looking back at some stats about winning two rounds here and there doesn't really tell the story.

From a Kukla's corner article 2009:

"So has Joe Thornton choked in the playoffs? If we define choking as failing to live up to our expectations then yes. If we define choking as being some innate character flaw in Thornton that is predictable into the future (i.e. he is incapable of meeting our expectations in big games) then he is not a choker. "

2011: Thornton changing preconceived notions about being a playoff choker: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...eived-notions/

I'm not making **** up. And, like I've said about a hundred times now, Thornton has changed these notions considerably in the past 3 years to the point that they're a non issue now. Doesn't change what was.

If anyone needs to do some homework about being misinformed about Thornton, it's you.

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Old
01-26-2014, 09:37 AM
  #315
Ave Maria
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There is a difference between being playoff contenders and Stanley cup contenders though. What's the point of barely getting into the playoffs, only to be ousted in the first two rounds by an all-around better team

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Old
01-26-2014, 09:43 AM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
That post addresses nothing about what I said about Thornton.
Sure it does.

Quote:
So, when the Sharks finished 1st overall and won the Presidents trophy and were bounced in the first round by the eighth seed they lost to a "better team"?
Yeah that 8th seeded team wasn't an ordinary 8th seed. Pronger, Neidermayer, Hiller, Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry, etc.

They were the team that took the defending Champs, Wings to game 7.....

Quote:
This post is blatantly wrong and it's pretty clear who's "misinformed".

The Sharks finished with 105+ points for 5 consecutive years and never made it to the finals. If you've watched Sharks games consistently over that span, which I have, you'd know what the talk was and what the expectations were. Just looking back at some stats about winning two rounds here and there doesn't really tell the story.

From a Kukla's corner article 2009:

"So has Joe Thornton choked in the playoffs? If we define choking as failing to live up to our expectations then yes. If we define choking as being some innate character flaw in Thornton that is predictable into the future (i.e. he is incapable of meeting our expectations in big games) then he is not a choker. "

2011: Thornton changing preconceived notions about being a playoff choker: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...eived-notions/

I'm not making **** up. And, like I've said about a hundred times now, Thornton has changed these notions considerably in the past 3 years to the point that they're a non issue now. Doesn't change what was.

If anyone needs to do some homework about being misinformed about Thornton, it's you.
And I can post bogus articles about Lundqvist being a choker, doesn't make it true. I mean he did lose to the 6th seeded team in the ECF, that's the end to it.

Regardless of choking or not, Thornton's had a helluva career and transformed the Sharks from a middle of the pack team to a constant top tier team. He's won more trophies than Callahan can dream of. Comparing him to a 2nd liner is still pretty asinine. Thornton's pretty much better at everything than Callahan at the game of hockey.

To point at the flaws of Thornton for 'not winning a damn thing', yet somehow vehemently defending Callahan as if he's some sort of winner is pretty funny to me. Making an Olympic team 2x as a 4th line player doesn't pertain respect to be compared to the greatest playmaker of the generation.

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Old
01-26-2014, 09:57 AM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
It's like 7 years ago we let Jagr walk because he wasn't the future etc. JJ was old at that point, no doubt. He would still be leading this team in scoring by a wide margin though.

Let's just colour me sceptic that it's soooo easy to just dump two core guys on a worthless market, gather some c-tier assets and then come back much better in 24 months.

Decisions needs to be made. Preferebly we could tie up these guys long term on a decent AAV.
Let's not compare one of the greatest players of all-time to a couple of aging cornerstones of a pretty mediocre team. Callahan and Girardi may continue to be good players until they are 40, but using Jagr as an example in hindsight is ridiculously skewed.

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Old
01-26-2014, 10:05 AM
  #318
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You can't sign both to ridiculous contracts.

You can't lose either for nothing.

Something's gotta give.

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Old
01-26-2014, 10:18 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Mint View Post
Sure it does.

Yeah that 8th seeded team wasn't an ordinary 8th seed. Pronger, Neidermayer, Hiller, Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry, etc.

They were the team that took the defending Champs, Wings to game 7.....
A team winning the President's trophy and losing in the first round to the eighth seed is a profound disappointment on any level. It doesn't matter if the 8th seed isn't "ordinary" or what they did two years before. Finishing 1st overall brings expectations with it that doesn't involve making excuses about why losing in the 1st round is okay. It's not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
And I can post bogus articles about Lundqvist being a choker, doesn't make it true. I mean he did lose to the 6th seeded team in the ECF, that's the end to it.

Regardless of choking or not, Thornton's had a helluva career and transformed the Sharks from a middle of the pack team to a constant top tier team. He's won more trophies than Callahan can dream of. Comparing him to a 2nd liner is still pretty asinine. Thornton's pretty much better at everything than Callahan at the game of hockey.

To point at the flaws of Thornton for 'not winning a damn thing', yet somehow vehemently defending Callahan as if he's some sort of winner is pretty funny to me. Making an Olympic team 2x as a 4th line player doesn't pertain respect to be compared to the greatest playmaker of the generation.
Lundqvist has nothing to do with anything. Not sure why you keep trying to enter him into the argument.

If you really believe that Thornton didn't have a label about not performing well in the playoffs during his first few years with the Sharks then I don't know what to say other than you're completely wrong. Even the SJ broadcasters were talking about that during playoff games and the regular season. It's simply a fact.

And, I've been pretty clear in quite a few posts that I wasn't comparing Callahan to Thornton as players. You keep making an argument that I wasn't making and that I'm getting tired of defending. Callahan is a two time Olympian and has gone as far in the playoffs as Thornton ever has. He deserves a bit more respect than "mediocre", "average", "barely 2nd liner", etc... He's none of these things. I've never said he's an elite RW, has talent comparable to Joe Thornton, or is a "winner". I've said he deserves more respect than he's getting and as a top 20-25 player in the U.S.A., he's certainly not an "average" guy.

This entire "debate" started when I said "The smart teams (like San Jose, for example) are signing their home-grown guys while you are pining for draft picks that might not even end up as NHL players." and added that if Thornton is signed for 6.75M then Callahan is worth 5M. Obviously I think SJ signing Thornton was smart and that he's worth more than Callahan.

Anyway, I'm done. This conversation is circular and I'm defending **** that is either a matter of common knowledge (Thornton having to shake a "playoff choker" moniker) or arguments that I haven't made ("Callahan > Thornton")

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Old
01-26-2014, 10:25 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
And, I've been pretty clear in quite a few posts that I wasn't comparing Callahan to Thornton as players. You keep making an argument that I wasn't making and that I'm getting tired of defending. Callahan is a two time Olympian and has gone as far in the playoffs as Thornton ever has. He deserves a bit more respect than "mediocre", "average", "barely 2nd liner", etc... He's none of these things. I've never said he's an elite RW, has talent comparable to Joe Thornton, or is a "winner". I've said he deserves more respect than he's getting and as a top 20-25 player in the U.S.A., he's certainly not an "average" guy.
I don't agree with it. Being named a 13th forward for Team USA still doesn't put you in the same sentence as a guy like Thornton. I don't think he deserves that much respect to be honest. Average players have made the U.S team before and even this year. Look at Orpik, Ryan Whitney, Drury, etc for reference.

I just don't understand the point you're trying to make here by pointing to the Olympic team. Orpik's won the cup, made the Olympic team 2x and has made the playoffs further than Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo, PK Subban, etc. Does that mean he deserves 'respect' too?

Justifying a long term commitment to a player based on a sample size on international play (not even a top player) seems like a ridiculous strategy to me.

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01-26-2014, 11:20 AM
  #321
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The fact of the matter is that some of us want the team to be perennial challengers for the cup. Not to be a team that has to scratch and claw it's way into the playoffs. It's one thing to be a favorite that sputters out in the post season, it's quite another to be going into it as a bottom seed with "Anything can happen!" being your mantra.

Onto Callahan, he obviously has a lot of emotional value to this fan base. He's the Captain. He's a tireless worker. He's a fan favorite for good reason. However, he's also a career .56 PPG player who often misses time due to injury, and hasn't really elevated his game in the post season. Nash and Zuccarello have established themselves as the top-two RW's. Callahan has seen his PP time and PK time reduced under AV. Even with the cap going up, it's very hard to justify a $6M cap hit for a complimentary utility player on a team that sorely lacks offensive talent. If the team had several young studs locked up to cap-friendly deals, I could see it making more sense, but it's tough to see it right now. It's a very slippery slope to start paying extra for intangibles and sentiment.
The fact of the matter is that absolutely nobody here doesn't want the team to be perennial challengers for the cup. People disagree about how to go about that. Nobody is happy with not winning.

I disagree that Zucc has established himself as a top RW. His period of solid production is an extremely small sample. They trade Callahan for futures, Zucc goes back to last year's form, or even keeps doing what he's done on "off" nights this year - then what? They'd probably wish they had another top 6 RW who could over perform in a third line role and be very solid in a second line role. I get that they have to strike while the window is open here, but I think we're deluding ourselves a little bit assuming that Zucc will be at his best from here on out. It'd be a gamble.

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01-26-2014, 11:50 AM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint View Post
I don't agree with it. Being named a 13th forward for Team USA still doesn't put you in the same sentence as a guy like Thornton. I don't think he deserves that much respect to be honest. Average players have made the U.S team before and even this year. Look at Orpik, Ryan Whitney, Drury, etc for reference.

I just don't understand the point you're trying to make here by pointing to the Olympic team. Orpik's won the cup, made the Olympic team 2x and has made the playoffs further than Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo, PK Subban, etc. Does that mean he deserves 'respect' too?

Justifying a long term commitment to a player based on a sample size on international play (not even a top player) seems like a ridiculous strategy to me.
And I'll agree to disagree that if you're a top 25 player in a country of 270 million people that you're an "average player" by making team USA. Twice. Bobby Ryan average, too? He made it once.

Let's just drop it. It's going nowhere.

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01-26-2014, 11:53 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
The fact of the matter is that absolutely nobody here doesn't want the team to be perennial challengers for the cup. People disagree about how to go about that. Nobody is happy with not winning.

I disagree that Zucc has established himself as a top RW. His period of solid production is an extremely small sample. They trade Callahan for futures, Zucc goes back to last year's form, or even keeps doing what he's done on "off" nights this year - then what? They'd probably wish they had another top 6 RW who could over perform in a third line role and be very solid in a second line role. I get that they have to strike while the window is open here, but I think we're deluding ourselves a little bit assuming that Zucc will be at his best from here on out. It'd be a gamble.
No more so a gamble than whether Callahan will regain his form and/or break down due to his style of play. Throw in Kristo and Fast playing in the minors (with Miller also capable of playing RW, although I prefer him at center) along with whatever assets you may get in return for Cally, which could also include a RW, and you've got two guys outplaying him right now PLUS three guys waiting in the wings - and potentially more coming back in any deal. Trade him. It's the obvious move.

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01-26-2014, 12:01 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I doubt Thornton leaves SJ, but if he did, I would have no problem with signing him. His last 3 contracts have all been 3 year deals and at age 35 (July 2nd), he won't be looking for more than 4-5 years.

I'd give him 4 years @ 7 mil. Takes him to age 39. And since he turns 35 on July 2nd, he won't count as a 35+ contract (have to be 35 as of June 30th). Signing him would give us the time to find a younger replacement and also allow us to trade Brassard. 3rd line center will still be an issue, but hopefully Miller or Lindberg will be ready for that spot next year.

If he isn't available, I say keep Brassard as the short term solution and do whatever we have to do to get a young center with high end potential.
Trade our top guys exc. Kreider, McD, Hank and possibly Miller (strategic asset) for multiple increases in quantity of value, with decent chance of quality upside also.

This board must understand Stepan is a valued asset, but it is likely he can do more for us with a serious return.

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01-26-2014, 12:04 PM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
And I'll agree to disagree that if you're a top 25 player in a country of 270 million people that you're an "average player" by making team USA. Twice. Bobby Ryan average, too? He made it once.

Let's just drop it. It's going nowhere.
The proof of average players making the Olympic team is right in front of your eyes. Brooks Orpik.

Frankly, I don't care how many times X player has played in the Olympics. That has zero relevance to NHL play.

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