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Old
01-28-2014, 12:37 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Holmgren wasn't signing vets to a young, rebuilding team for veteran presence while they lost. He was trying to compete with a team that wasn't ready to, as evidenced by one coach firing and being a fringe playoff team for the majority of the season. That's not smart.

A band-aid deal doesn't last four or five years while carrying a declining player into their late 30's. That's not a "band-aid". That's a bad contract.

No awards are given out for strictly saving cap space, but saving cap space and making good deals allows flexibility with your roster and will ensure your team isn't handcuffed long-term which can be one part of winning the President's Trophy or Stanley Cup. Which are awards.
no issue for me trying to compete while "rebuilding". the contracts of these 2 players are not handcuffing us from anything. even if we had 20m in cap space we still don't have any viable disposable assets to work with.

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01-28-2014, 12:43 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Dudes been awful. It's Funny watching people try and talk the organization out of another bad contract by hypothesizing that that might be able to dump the contract.

If that's not the sign of a bad contract after only half a year, I don't know what is.
This. 100% agreed.

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01-28-2014, 12:45 AM
  #103
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Dudes been awful. It's Funny watching people try and talk the organization out of another bad contract by hypothesizing that that might be able to dump the contract.

If that's not the sign of a bad contract after only half a year, I don't know what is.
I'm not necessarily looking to dump him, but if he can be traded for say a second rounder...that's great. 4.5m to buy a second is a win.

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01-28-2014, 02:44 AM
  #104
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You failed to address like everything I said. I wasn't commenting on how good the Pronger contract was, I just said that they didn't even know what they were doing with it evidenced by the fact that they didn't even know it was a 35+ contract.

In what way are the Flyers and specifically Homer "the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams, with respect to finding loop holes and pushing the rules"?
1. Pretty much caused the lockout with the Weber deal (bonus-loaded)
2. Pronger's contract paved the way for the hossa/kovalchuk deals (front-loaded)
3. Carter/Richards deals also added to the contract length rules.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up upshall, bc that's the biggest cap blunder we've seen. And that was Giroux's fault more than homer..

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01-28-2014, 02:46 AM
  #105
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I'm not necessarily looking to dump him, but if he can be traded for say a second rounder...that's great. 4.5m to buy a second is a win.
Yep.
Also, It's not Vinnys fault thus club won't play defense. 4.5 is nothing

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01-28-2014, 03:27 AM
  #106
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Vinny is a big part of the reason the club is bad at defense.

If you had said it's not Couturier's fault the club is bad at D, that would be one thing. But when you're talking about a guy who isn't good at D, then yes, it is partly his fault the team isn't good defensively.

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01-28-2014, 09:13 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Dudes been awful. It's Funny watching people try and talk the organization out of another bad contract by hypothesizing that that might be able to dump the contract.

If that's not the sign of a bad contract after only half a year, I don't know what is.
He was good till he got hurt.

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01-28-2014, 09:18 AM
  #108
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He was one of the best players on the team in the first two months.

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Old
01-28-2014, 06:11 PM
  #109
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He was good till he got hurt.
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He was one of the best players on the team in the first two months.
Not really

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Old
01-28-2014, 07:49 PM
  #110
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People really are overstating how good he was to start the season. He was our best offensive producer along with Schenn...but nobody on the team was producing well for the first month or so on the whole. He was scoring pretty much the exact same way he does now (either setting up someone in the slot or utilizing his crazy good shot on a cross ice pass usually on the PP) and he still has the same deficiencies he did then. Lecavalier probably was producing better (not sure how much if at all), but the biggest difference back then was that literally nobody else ever scored aside from Lecavalier and Schenn which helps him stick out in that time frame.

I think we were averaging like 1.5 or just under 2 goals a game for a long while to start the season which is flat-out atrocious so naturally any player that scored even every few games will stick out in that scenario.

I actually just went through the first five games of the season and he had one goal and two assists in five games. He's scoring .5 PPG and like .25 GPG now so that's similar to what he's doing now. I know five games is a small sample size, but I don't remember exactly what games he was injured for and I don't want to bother to look through every game. I also think Schenn had a point on every point Lecavalier had through those first five games.

EDIT: IIRC he was hurt fairly early on so even if he was doing better (which he really wasn't) at that time that was also for an extremely small sample size that doesn't mean anything at all really. So, again, this whole "he's playing hurt or he was so good before getting hurt" stuff just feels like people trying to justify his contract or justify the player.

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01-28-2014, 08:02 PM
  #111
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Maybe they just didn't give a **** about the contract being 35+ because it made no difference in the exit strategies available to them? Thinking that the Flyers org doesn't know how to manage the cap is pure nonsense. They will always find a way to create the cap space needed to get a player they want.
They flat-out didn't know. I remember them specifically being surprised about it and pretty much admitting it. If anyone else wants to back me up here feel free.

There's literally all the proof out there that they don't know how to manage a cap. It was only a few seasons ago where they had to sign like beer league players or some crap like that to emergency tryout contracts because their cap situation was so screwed, they made trades like Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo as well as Gagne for Meszaros because they were always stuck with the cap, they didn't know what they were doing with the Pronger contract, and even right now in present time we have literally more cap committed to D then any other team in the league (as Beef pointed out, thank you Beef) yet we have one of the worst D groups in the league.

They are horrible at handling the cap and pretty much have been the majority of the time. They also had to use both of their compliance buyouts immediately to get rid of the Bryzgalov and Briere contracts.

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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
1. Pretty much caused the lockout with the Weber deal (bonus-loaded)
2. Pronger's contract paved the way for the hossa/kovalchuk deals (front-loaded)
3. Carter/Richards deals also added to the contract length rules.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up upshall, bc that's the biggest cap blunder we've seen. And that was Giroux's fault more than homer..
That doesn't make them sound cutting edge or savvy or a standout team in any way whatsoever. The league specifically called deals like that "circumventing the cap" and some teams/deals got investigated for it and NJ even lost a first rounder for it (as well as having to make a new deal). They also were not the only team to do that kind of thing.

IIRC the Luongo deal was the first contract like that and then there's the Hossa, Suter, Parise, and Kovalchuk deals. There's literally nothing about that that says ""the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams". Even if you think they caused the lockout with the Weber offer sheet are we supposed to be proud that they caused a lockout? Is that a thing to be happy about now?

They have had a lot of cap blunders. They get by with it because they always end up making relatively minor sacrifices to get out of it (like the Upshall and Gagne deals) or just flat-out get lucky with stuff like using the compliance buyouts on Bryzgalov and Briere and Pronger being able to be shoved into LTIR.

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Old
01-28-2014, 08:28 PM
  #112
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Not really
Eh. He had 14 points in 22 games. Overall also he was playing good.

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01-28-2014, 08:37 PM
  #113
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He's looked pretty damn good tonight.

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Not really
Yeah, really.

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Old
01-29-2014, 04:48 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
They flat-out didn't know. I remember them specifically being surprised about it and pretty much admitting it. If anyone else wants to back me up here feel free.

There's literally all the proof out there that they don't know how to manage a cap. It was only a few seasons ago where they had to sign like beer league players or some crap like that to emergency tryout contracts because their cap situation was so screwed, they made trades like Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo as well as Gagne for Meszaros because they were always stuck with the cap, they didn't know what they were doing with the Pronger contract, and even right now in present time we have literally more cap committed to D then any other team in the league (as Beef pointed out, thank you Beef) yet we have one of the worst D groups in the league.

They are horrible at handling the cap and pretty much have been the majority of the time. They also had to use both of their compliance buyouts immediately to get rid of the Bryzgalov and Briere contracts.



That doesn't make them sound cutting edge or savvy or a standout team in any way whatsoever. The league specifically called deals like that "circumventing the cap" and some teams/deals got investigated for it and NJ even lost a first rounder for it (as well as having to make a new deal). They also were not the only team to do that kind of thing.

IIRC the Luongo deal was the first contract like that and then there's the Hossa, Suter, Parise, and Kovalchuk deals. There's literally nothing about that that says ""the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams". Even if you think they caused the lockout with the Weber offer sheet are we supposed to be proud that they caused a lockout? Is that a thing to be happy about now?

They have had a lot of cap blunders. They get by with it because they always end up making relatively minor sacrifices to get out of it (like the Upshall and Gagne deals) or just flat-out get lucky with stuff like using the compliance buyouts on Bryzgalov and Briere and Pronger being able to be shoved into LTIR.
Like I said before you mentioned it, the upshall deal was definitely the worst cap casualty. But considering it was made to let Giroux develop & never really bit our ass, I'll let it go. (Though the pick really stung)

However, the Gagne deal actually reinforces my point. The organization will move mountains, and effectively pay for other teams' players by moving inflated but empty contracts for peanuts.

This way we can take shots, but protect ourselves from the end of the deal. Even a NMC or NTC

Vinny signed with us because of the offer :
1. Money up front
2. A few more chances in the playoffs
3. Exit strategy to whichever 5-10 teams he likes

We basically get a shot with him for free, and if he miraculously lasts the whole deal, than great. If not, move him at no real cost other tha $$$

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01-30-2014, 12:39 PM
  #115
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I'm a Tampa Bay fan and I found this thread pretty interesting. It seems like Lecavalier's following a lot of the same patterns.

I saw it mentioned that Lecavalier's partially to blame for Philly's defense issues. Maybe that's an overstatement, I don't know, but I can tell you we Tampa Bay fans credit a lot of our defensive improvements (they do, believe it or not, go beyond goaltending) to replacing Lecavalier with Filppula. It gave our team a different feel. So I wouldn't doubt Lecavalier has a bigger impact on the overall team defense than some might think.

The most interesting thing though, to me, is how Lecavalier played well before being injured. The exact same thing happened last year in Tampa. Lecavalier was our best player through 10 games, better than St. Louis, better than Stamkos. He was playing great two-way hockey. Then he suffered a leg/foot injury, and that was just it. He came back, but the effort never did. Not sure if that's what you're seeing, a problem of effort, but that's what I saw last year.

Just thought I'd add that.

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01-30-2014, 09:31 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by DFC View Post
I'm a Tampa Bay fan and I found this thread pretty interesting. It seems like Lecavalier's following a lot of the same patterns.

I saw it mentioned that Lecavalier's partially to blame for Philly's defense issues. Maybe that's an overstatement, I don't know, but I can tell you we Tampa Bay fans credit a lot of our defensive improvements (they do, believe it or not, go beyond goaltending) to replacing Lecavalier with Filppula. It gave our team a different feel. So I wouldn't doubt Lecavalier has a bigger impact on the overall team defense than some might think.

The most interesting thing though, to me, is how Lecavalier played well before being injured. The exact same thing happened last year in Tampa. Lecavalier was our best player through 10 games, better than St. Louis, better than Stamkos. He was playing great two-way hockey. Then he suffered a leg/foot injury, and that was just it. He came back, but the effort never did. Not sure if that's what you're seeing, a problem of effort, but that's what I saw last year.

Just thought I'd add that.
I've seen effort from him defensively, and talking about straight up replacements, he's a much MUCH better defensive forward than Danny Briere (who isn't?).

His last game against Detroit was very strong. Effort was there, intensity, skills. I know it was a decimated DET team, but I give him credit for coming back hard. We need him to be at his best. Hopefully the Olympic Break does wonders for him

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01-30-2014, 10:29 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I've seen effort from him defensively, and talking about straight up replacements, he's a much MUCH better defensive forward than Danny Briere (who isn't?).

His last game against Detroit was very strong. Effort was there, intensity, skills. I know it was a decimated DET team, but I give him credit for coming back hard. We need him to be at his best. Hopefully the Olympic Break does wonders for him
I think the flyers are poised to benefit more than most with the time off..

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01-30-2014, 10:47 PM
  #118
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I know this isn't the best stat to determine how you are defensively but for his career his +/- is ..minus 130



.

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01-30-2014, 10:48 PM
  #119
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I think the flyers are poised to benefit more than most with the time off..
I'd agree only because of this gauntlet schedule they have going in. They're shockingly healthy for a franchise that is usually decimated by injury. I'd agree more if Timonen wasn't playing in the Olympics. 2 weeks off could be good for him.

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01-30-2014, 10:56 PM
  #120
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I'd agree only because of this gauntlet schedule they have going in. They're shockingly healthy for a franchise that is usually decimated by injury. I'd agree more if Timonen wasn't playing in the Olympics. 2 weeks off could be good for him.
We'll see. Downie looks like he definitely needs time off, and so does Grossmann. Couturier is looking worn down too, not surprising since his ice time has nearly doubled this year. I love giving Emery two weeks off, as games go on I get increasingly worried that we'll hear the pop as the head of his femur breaks through his pelvis.

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02-06-2014, 01:30 AM
  #121
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So at this rate what are the chances the plug gets pulled on the Lecavalier experiment before the start of next season?

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02-06-2014, 01:33 AM
  #122
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So at this rate what are the chances the plug gets pulled on the Lecavalier experiment before the start of next season?
Unless someone takes him off our hands I would say slim.

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02-06-2014, 01:52 AM
  #123
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Not really
Agreed he was pretty bad. He's been even worse since then which is fairly remarkable.

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02-06-2014, 08:55 AM
  #124
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Hopefully he will come back well-rested after the Olympic break. Looks like Vinny needs it.

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02-06-2014, 09:23 AM
  #125
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So at this rate what are the chances the plug gets pulled on the Lecavalier experiment before the start of next season?
Vinny really hasn't been awful when healthy. There's just no room for him on the roster when everyone is healthy though. He's a center on a team with insane center depth.

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