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Old
01-28-2014, 01:02 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
I agree. But the question is how do you replace him? Minute-eating, shot blocking defenseman don't grow on trees. Is he what he was 4 years ago? No. But at age 30, he's got a lot left, and some of the dumping on him is unwarranted. Klein solidified the #4/5 spot from the right side, but there is still plenty of uncertainty regarding the defense beyond this season. Especially on that side.

Colorado and the Rangers have apparently been scouting one another for weeks now. To me, that's about a Girardi deal. You're not doing advanced scouting on a team you play twice for weeks. The Avalanche have Andre Benoit and Cory Sarich in their top 4. EJ and Hejda the others. Something tells me the Rangers are after Tyson Barrie+ in such a trade.
The people saying Girardi is a bad player right now are delusional. For me it's not about next year, or even 2-3 years down the road, but the 2nd half of the next contract he will sign. From 34-37/38. Are you comfortable with what he will most likely become in 3-4 years for another 3-4 years?

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01-28-2014, 01:05 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
I'm not advocating that we should do this. I can just see a similar type move being made.

We need a point shot on the power play, especially with Richards likely being bought out. We'll need a RHD if we lose one of Stralman or Girardi. Green is offensively minded, AV likes his defensemen to be offensively minded. Perfect fit.

Now for the package that we give up to get him - Wash is a conference rival, meaning they'll ask more of us to trade for him. Brassard is a luxury, he'll have a high qualifying offer that will be more than he is worth. Miller came up and played fine on the 3rd line his last time up, he's been averaging over a ppg in the AHL... he's ready. McIlrath doesn't seem to me to be in AV's agenda. He's slow, will take a few more years to correctly learn where to position himself, he's too physical for AV's liking too. We'll be playing with 5 defensemen often because he'll be off for fighting. Side note, I love McIlrath and think he's exactly what this team needs moving forward, but this is just my opinion of what the coach thinks of him. And then after that I think they'll ask for a 3rd or 4th in addition.

Type of move that Sather will make to try and put us over the top now and set us up if Girardi or Stralman leaves for the future. Those are the future moves he makes... not for prospects.
I like your idea in theory, but with a likely Richards buyout, your center depth is now gone if you subtract Brassard. That means paying open market price for another top 6 center, which is already 5MM, and likely more with a 71MM projected cap incoming.

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01-28-2014, 01:06 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Whoa there. I don't have a hatred or tunnel vision with any one player.

That being said, I distinguish (for myself) which players I like and which players I don't. In the sense of a team building perspective... I'm not unlike GM's who construct their teams with a certain mold of players they prefer. The only difference is that I don't have any type of power to GM a team.

Del Zotto was a player I was on the fence for in his first year. He made great plays, but i'm not wowed by great plays. I think hockey is a mans sport that requires physicality, creativity, vision, and hard work. I never hated Del Zotto because he showed the last criteria I listed. I respect hard workers. It's why I respect Girardi and Callahan while so many on here would have them traded without blinking.

But I recognized that he had a lot of flaws and advocated that I wanted him gone as soon as possible to maximize his value. That's not called tunnel vision.

Have I been wrong on players before? Sure. But i'm not ignorant, i'm not biased to the point where i'll blindly hate on someone, and i'm pretty rational in my assessments and thought process.
The "Tunnel Vision" was in reference to the trade. Do I think you have tunnel vision? Absolutely not and I apologize if I implied that in my post. I just thought it was a little outlandish to say that you would have gone as far to trade DZ instead of Erixon (a player who has looked lost at the NHL level) and a mid 1st round pick in the Nash trade. It just appears that you wanted to get rid of him at all costs rather then getting something back in a trade that is a need.

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Old
01-28-2014, 01:06 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by JPP4121 View Post
Well its not too hard to state in a post you compose. IF so and so is asking for this, the rangers should do this… IF so and so is asking for that, the should do that.

Girardi and Callahan could land you a nice ransom and if that happens and it happens bc the rangers know those players won't be re-signing at reasonable terms, or bc they are totally blown away from an offer. Then make the deal. Thats the business.

But the other side of the coin is, these aren't the type of players you deal just to deal. If the value isn't there, you don't just get rid of them to peanuts.

On callahan, and where he fits. Look 5 million is high for a third line player. But your talking about the teams captain, your talking about a heart and soul player, a player who's advanced stats show that he plays against the league best players and he's still effective. He's a guy if their is an injury up front, you can slot him up. He's proven on the PP as net presence and he's awesome PK man. 5 million is a lot. But if the cap is going to keep going up and up. And I don't know if it will. But then that 5 mil doesn't look so bad I bet as things shake out.

And finally, what are the chances of any single prospect or pick the rangers receive in a trade for Girardi or Callahan (barring them being a blue-chip prospect or pick), becoming a better player then Callahan. like I just read recently somebody saying Miller is definitely going to be better then Callahan. WTF, like really
If Callahan would sign for 5 million that's a good contract. He will get 6+ very easily on the open market. Look at what David Clarkson got last summer. Callahan is a superior player in every aspect. Clarkson received 5.25 for 7 years. Callahan will get 6+ with the cap going up and more teams having cap space very easily.

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01-28-2014, 01:08 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
The people saying Girardi is a bad player right now are delusional. For me it's not about next year, or even 2-3 years down the road, but the 2nd half of the next contract he will sign. From 34-37/38. Are you comfortable with what he will most likely become in 3-4 years for another 3-4 years?
Trashing Girardi is the new trend. Don't get it. He's had some bad games, but who on this defense hasn't this year? And yes, that includes McDonagh.

If he wants 7-8 years, see ya later. I am absolutely not comfortable with Girardi beyond age 35. But to get him for the first 3-4 years, I'd sign him for 6 years. Too much major change is not a good thing. You have to keep one of he or Callahan, and I certainly lean Girardi in that case. Unless someone comes up with a really good offer.

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01-28-2014, 01:13 PM
  #657
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Viper you are dead on. And I think a lot of us know this and thats why so many are willing to move these players. Come July 1st, Callahan and Girardi are both getting between 6.5 and 7.5 million per. And thats why, all this talk even has legs. Bc everyone knows if Callahan and Girardi hit july 1st, they are hitting the jackpot.

Maybe if Sather wasn't so bent on "bridge contracts" the players wouldn't have to be thinking about "retirement contracts"

Sather ponies up the money for guys he wants, that he feels deep-down would, will, want to leave. Staal with his bros in carolina and McDonagh a Minn boy, who you can totally see heading back home at some points.

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01-28-2014, 01:13 PM
  #658
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Why can we sign both Callahan and Girardi for "x" amount and "x" years, with limited NMC and trade them within the next few years. Wouldn't they worth more with a long contract?

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01-28-2014, 01:14 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by JPP4121 View Post
Viper you are dead on. And I think a lot of us know this and thats why so many are willing to move these players. Come July 1st, Callahan and Girardi are both getting between 6.5 and 7.5 million per. And thats why, all this talk even has legs. Bc everyone knows if Callahan and Girardi hit july 1st, they are hitting the jackpot.

Maybe if Sather wasn't so bent on "bridge contracts" the players wouldn't have to be thinking about "retirement contracts"

Sather ponies up the money for guys he wants, that he feels deep-down would, will, want to leave. Staal with his bros in carolina and McDonagh a Minn boy, who you can totally see heading back home at some points.
I totally disagree here. I think bridge contracts are some of the only things Sather does right.

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01-28-2014, 01:15 PM
  #661
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Kj, I agree Miller is close.

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Old
01-28-2014, 01:16 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
Trashing Girardi is the new trend. Don't get it. He's had some bad games, but who on this defense hasn't this year? And yes, that includes McDonagh.

If he wants 7-8 years, see ya later. I am absolutely not comfortable with Girardi beyond age 35. But to get him for the first 3-4 years, I'd sign him for 6 years. Too much major change is not a good thing. You have to keep one of he or Callahan, and I certainly lean Girardi in that case. Unless someone comes up with a really good offer.
I don't see this trend of shredding Girardi that you see.

He's a frustrating but really solid player.

One that the board is very split on keeping and trading.

What salary are you okay with?

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01-28-2014, 01:17 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
I don't see this trend of shredding Girardi that you see.

He's a frustrating but really solid player.

One that the board is very split on keeping and trading.

What salary are you okay with?
Somewhere between 5 and 6MM for 6 years. Likely have to go on the higher end of that, and it's okay with me.

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Old
01-28-2014, 01:19 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
Somewhere between 5 and 6MM for 6 years. Likely have to go on the higher end of that, and it's okay with me.
Meh. I really can't get behind 6 mill for Girardi, when he has to have his ass dragged around the ice by McDonagh or Staal.

Girardi is going to get seriously overpaid for what he brings, methinks.

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01-28-2014, 01:19 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
Trashing Girardi is the new trend. Don't get it. He's had some bad games, but who on this defense hasn't this year? And yes, that includes McDonagh.

If he wants 7-8 years, see ya later. I am absolutely not comfortable with Girardi beyond age 35. But to get him for the first 3-4 years, I'd sign him for 6 years. Too much major change is not a good thing. You have to keep one of he or Callahan, and I certainly lean Girardi in that case. Unless someone comes up with a really good offer.
So here is a hypothetical for everyone that I am sure people will pick apart:

Callahan is asking for 8 years @ 6.8 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Girardi is asking for 7 years @ 6.5 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Not unreasonable contracts and what they could easily get on the open market.

Chicago has the top offer for Callahan:
Hartman + Clendening + CHI 1st '14

Tampa has the top offer for Girardi:
Connolly + Nesterov + TB 1st '14

What would you do? Sign the players? Trade the players? Keep one but not the other?

Obviously the teams can be changed and the players can change slightly but assuming that is the value you could return, what do you do?

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01-28-2014, 01:20 PM
  #667
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Don't you find it ironic that in the "bad old days" many, including a certain GM of Edmonton, accused the Rangers of fiscal irresponsibility and driving up contracts and now, with Sather and his bridge contracts that argue for fiscal responsibility, these contracts put the Rangers in a bad situation and are increasingly ignored?

Bridge contracts are a great idea in theory. I love Kreider but do we really want to lock him up for eight years and chance the possibility that he doesn't develop into the player we want him to be? With a bridge contract for players there is still some doubt about, you get two more years of development before you commit long term.

Has Stepan really earned a long term contract yet? Are we ready to pay him first line center money long term when he is not yet a fully developed player?

Hard to believe that Sather is the voice of reason being ignored by other GMs but sometimes that is the way it seems.

With todays NHL, bridge contacts seem to have run their course and I guess we'll have to join everyone else locking up a large number of players long term.

Doesn't mean, however, that the idea of bridge contracts are a bad idea, at least in theory.
See, I look at that question and think you do.

Because the risk of that player not developing for me is countered by the reward of that player developing into something better than you expected.

After Stepan's 50+ point season, I had no issues with him getting a long term contract. 5-6 years at 4-4.5 per would be a steal. He was almost on a PPG pace last season and after a horrible start, he's trending towards another 50+ point season this year.

Now, he goes 50+ this year, 50+ next year and with a cap potentially in the mid 70's, you really think you can sign Stepan for less than 6 per?

Not likely.

Kreider is another player that I look to sign to 6 years. his developmental track indicates continued improvement.

These are the core players with McD and Hank you to hitch your wagons to.

3 years with the cap pushing 80 million these "large" cap hits today will look like absolute bargains by comparisson.

The big difference is that old players get older (Callahan and Girardi) and young players get better (McD, Stepan and Kredier)

Bridge contracts are used for the marginally talented guys. Guys like Hagelin, Brassard and I could even justify MDZ in that catagory.

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01-28-2014, 01:20 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
I think if anything, his last stint solidified him a spot next year, with or without Brassard on the team.

Brassard is likely a point of trade talks now unless the Rangers view him as a winger moving forward.
As much as I'd like to trade Brassard, that leaves a serious hole at 2C next year. I don't trade him, yet. Keep him as a stop gap.

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01-28-2014, 01:21 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So here is a hypothetical for everyone that I am sure people will pick apart:

Callahan is asking for 8 years @ 6.8 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Girardi is asking for 7 years @ 6.5 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Not unreasonable contracts and what they could easily get on the open market.

Chicago has the top offer for Callahan:
Hartman + Clendening + CHI 1st '14

Tampa has the top offer for Girardi:
Connolly + Nesterov + TB 1st '14
What would you do? Sign the players? Trade the players? Keep one but not the other?

Obviously the teams can be changed and the players can change slightly but assuming that is the value you could return, what do you do?
At those contract numbers, I'm trading both players.

Sorry, there is no justification for paying these two players that kind of money.

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01-28-2014, 01:21 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So here is a hypothetical for everyone that I am sure people will pick apart:

Callahan is asking for 8 years @ 6.8 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Girardi is asking for 7 years @ 6.5 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Not unreasonable contracts and what they could easily get on the open market.

Chicago has the top offer for Callahan:
Hartman + Clendening + CHI 1st '14

Tampa has the top offer for Girardi:
Connolly + Nesterov + TB 1st '14

What would you do? Sign the players? Trade the players? Keep one but not the other?

Obviously the teams can be changed and the players can change slightly but assuming that is the value you could return, what do you do?
I very easily make both of those trades. Like, I don't even blink and do it.

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01-28-2014, 01:25 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Kiss winning goodbye for 2-3 more years.
with or without those two, we are not winning.

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01-28-2014, 01:25 PM
  #674
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Signing Engelland in the off season is going to make the drafting of McIlrath even more controversial. Not saying don't attempt to sign Engelland because of McIlrath...but, have to say, from what we saw of McI so far, people pencilling him in as ready starting next season may be in for a bad time.

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01-28-2014, 01:26 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So here is a hypothetical for everyone that I am sure people will pick apart:

Callahan is asking for 8 years @ 6.8 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Girardi is asking for 7 years @ 6.5 million/season with a NMC and will not budge.

Not unreasonable contracts and what they could easily get on the open market.

Chicago has the top offer for Callahan:
Hartman + Clendening + CHI 1st '14

Tampa has the top offer for Girardi:
Connolly + Nesterov + TB 1st '14

What would you do? Sign the players? Trade the players? Keep one but not the other?

Obviously the teams can be changed and the players can change slightly but assuming that is the value you could return, what do you do?
If that's the best offer, I keep Girardi. I'm not sold on Connolly. I get that the Lightning are stacked on the wings, but it's concerning that he can't get an opportunity there. Not too sure about Nesterov, though. Haven't seen much.

For Callahan, I think that's an overpayment, so I take it and run. Hartman is the kind of guy the Rangers love. Probably a middle-six forward, but a guy with some scoring touch who plays an in-your-face game. Loved him at the WJC.

Clendenning addresses an organizational need as well, and he's already proven at the AHL level. Right-handed shooting offensive dmen are hard to find. I take that deal and run.

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