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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Who finishes dead last?

View Poll Results: who finish last
Canada 47 20.43%
Sweden 5 2.17%
Russia 4 1.74%
Finland 1 0.43%
Norway 14 6.09%
USA 7 3.04%
Russia 1 0.43%
Czech's 0 0%
Slovakia 1 0.43%
Austria 45 19.57%
Slovenia 76 33.04%
Latvia 29 12.61%
Voters: 230. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-28-2014, 01:02 PM
  #51
Namejs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsanford View Post
Your stats include a period of time that are not indicative of how the teams are currently made up. You probably need to focus on post Vancouver
Given the structure of IHWC before 2012 and the fact that Austria and Slovenia have spent half of their time in the 2nd tier of the World Championship, there have been stretches of up to 10 years in a row where some of the teams did not meet each other in any official games. So it is useless to only look at what has happened during the last 3 or 4 years.

We can increase the period of time or decrease it, nothing will change as long as the sample size is bigger than 1 or 2 games.

Quote:
So the record between Latvia and Slovenia since the Vancouver games is 1-1.
with GD favoring the Slovenian's, right?
That's a ludicrous argument. Using that same logic, I could argue that Latvia has got a better team than Sweden or Slovakia. So probably Sweden will end up in the last place, right?

Quote:
Also I am pretty sure Kopitar did not play in either of those game given the time they occurred. Not sure if the Latvian team had all of their players, maybe they did not.
Kopitar played in the game, in which we defeated them 5:1.

There were 8-10 players missing from the Latvian roster during last year's IHWC when compared to Sochi. Slovenians/Norwegians/Austrians usually miss only a couple of players max.

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The Swiss game is one of those extreme's (for both clubs) , other than that seems Slovenian have played mostly 1 goal games, where top end NHL guy like Kopitar maybe could have an impact.
Nope. There haven't been more than a couple of 1 goal games.

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Now granted some of those lower teams might have been missing NHL talent too, Austria-Vanek (though Sabres were not in playoffs so he probably did play in World Championships if they were in May), Norway off the top of my head nobody, Latvia as you mention no NHL players, Swiss (probably missing NHL players) Slovakia (Hossa, Chara, just to name a few,)
Nope.

You don't know what you're talking about, yet you keep on talking. Why is that? You're guessing and you even admit it.

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Olympics, given its format is probably not the place to best determine which team finishes dead last. Slovenia has the worst draw of them all simply because they are with 3 legit medal contenders. (Latvia not much easier either).
Yes, the best way to determine that is by looking at the lineups, comparing the quality and talent on both rosters and looking up the record of every team involved in official international tournaments. If you'd do that, you'd clearly see that Slovenia is hands down the worst team in the tournament.

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Old
01-28-2014, 02:32 PM
  #52
EbencoyE
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I doubt Slovenia will get any points in their group, whereas Austria and Latvia will probably have a better chance of doing so.

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Old
01-28-2014, 03:07 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
I doubt Slovenia will get any points in their group, whereas Austria and Latvia will probably have a better chance of doing so.
I actually completely forgot about the divisions. Yeah, Slovenia is likely last.

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Old
01-28-2014, 04:54 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
Nope, sorry. If by "regularly beat" you mean you beat them once in the last few years, I guess I could say Latvia is much better than Sweden or Slovakia.

Slovenia is definitely not better than Austria. One could argue that they're similar in strength, but a lot of people wouldn't even agree with that.
I can see from all your posts that you are quite ******** about Slovenia and I'm not sure why.

And if you want to know, Slovenia and Austria played cca. 10 games in last few years and it is something like 7:3 for Slovenia in wins. Last official match was 1,5 years ago, Slovenia beat Austria 3:2 and Austria played will their best players except Vanek (Slovenia missed Kopitar and Mursak). Last year during lockout there was a tournament and both teams have all their best players (Slovenia with Kopitar and Mursak, Austria with Vanek and Grabner), Slovenia won 6:3. And I'm quite sure that I know Austrian team much better than you since Slovenian team is playing in Austrian championship, where most of their NT players are playing and I follow games regulary on TV. So I'm staying with my oppinion that our team is better than Austrian. Especially in last two years we made huge step forward since many our better players started to play regulary in better european leagues and youngsters become more mature.

And if I can tease you a bit, in our last meeting (Slovenia: Latvia) on WC we beat you 5:2 and your last win against us is more than 5 years ago, Kopitar really played on that WC in Canada, but that was after his first year at Kings and that was actually his last appearance for our NT in official tournament, because after that there was just no possibilty for him to play (B group started to soon or were Kings in PO).

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Old
01-29-2014, 06:58 AM
  #55
Namejs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likid View Post
I can see from all your posts that you are quite ******** about Slovenia and I'm not sure why.
I think you're confusing being objective and being '********'. I'm sure if someone said Slovenia are weaker than South Korea, you'd also try to argue the opposite, and rightfully so.

Quote:
And if you want to know, Slovenia and Austria played cca. 10 games in last few years and it is something like 7:3 for Slovenia in wins. Last official match was 1,5 years ago, Slovenia beat Austria 3:2 and Austria played will their best players except Vanek (Slovenia missed Kopitar and Mursak). Last year during lockout there was a tournament and both teams have all their best players (Slovenia with Kopitar and Mursak, Austria with Vanek and Grabner)
First of all, your numbers are incorrect. More importantly, friendly games mean very little, if not nothing at all. I'm pretty sure Latvia has a positive record vs. Switzerland in friendly games, and we've beat pretty much every national team in friendlies. That is largely irrelevant.

Quote:
So I'm staying with my oppinion that our team is better than Austrian. Especially in last two years we made huge step forward since many our better players started to play regulary in better european leagues and youngsters become more mature.
You might've made a step forward, but you're still a couple of steps behind Norway/Latvia and a step behind Austria. If "playing in better European leagues" is your main argument, I strongly advise you to make a list of leagues your players represent. Most of the Slovenian players come from the French league, Swedish 2nd division or other 2nd tier European leagues. Compare that to SEL-dominated Norwegian roster or KHL-dominated Latvian roster, which also includes 9 players with NHL experience.

As I've said previously, one could argue that Slovenia and Austria are comparable in strength, but I don't agree with that view. There's more depth to the Austrian line-up and the Austrian hockey programme in general. They've got a self-sufficient hockey pyramid with a decent and growing pro league and they've got plenty of players to choose from in the selection process. The Austrian players are among the leading players in EBEL.

The Slovenian line-up looks like a pair of patched up pants or something. There's a guy from the Czech 2nd division on your roster. If 1 or 2 guys get injured, you'll have to replace them with even worse players. The fact that you've joined EBEL (an AUSTRIAN league) is going to help you with the lack of depth problem in the long term, but at this point you're still sending guys from Magnus/EIHL/etc. to the World Championship. Those are third-tier/minor pro leagues.

More specifically - you've got Kopitar, but Austria has almost got an entire NHL-tier line upfront. 4 guys with NHL experience, and another line of PPG guys from EBEL and a couple of guys playing leading roles in NLA. Same with D - they've got Pck and a number of guys with AHL/KHL experience/players with leading roles in EBEL or NLA.

There's a little more quality and more depth in every position on the Austrian line-up.

Furthermore, all of this is not very important, as Austria is facing Norway, instead of Slovakia, which clearly means that in terms of probability, you're a clear favorite to finish dead last, which this thread is about.

The bookmakers share the same view, giving Austria 1 in 882 odds of winning in Sochi, while Slovenia - 1 in 1100 odds of winning gold. The combined chances of Austria+Slovenia winning are smaller than the Latvian chances alone.

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Old
01-29-2014, 08:52 AM
  #56
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First of all, I never said that our NT team is better than yours. I was just teasing you because we beat you clearly in our last official match.

Regarding Austria, didn't want to check exactly, but since you challenged me, this is H2H between Slovenia and Austria since 2010:

- 18.12.2010....Slovenia - Austria....3:0...(F)
- 5.7.2011........Austria - Slovenia...3:2...(WC)
- 21.4.2012......Slovenia - Austria....3:2..(WC)
- 11.10.2012.....Slovenia - Austria....6:3..(F)
- 19.4.2013.......Slovenia - Austria...5:2...(F)
- 26.4.2013.......Slovenia - Austria...1:0...(F)
- 8.11.2013.......Austria - Slovenia...2:0...(F)

So in last three years Slovenia had 5 wins and 2 losses against Austria and on WC it is 1:1 in that period.

And as I said, for me is the most relevant match on 11.10.2012, where both teams played with their best squads (that will mostly play in Olympics in few days) - Slovenia with Kopitar and Mursak, Austria with Vanek and Grabner and it was clear victory.

And I really don't think it matter much for this Olympics if Austria have better youth programm or better depth as Slovenia. Now matters only players that will be in Sochi. And Slovenia so far is very lucky because all players are healty. And as far as our team goes, majority of our most important playesr are playing in Germany, Sweden and EBEL.

And if you read carefully, I said immediately that we will be probably last because of tough group, but I'm still sure that our team is better than Austrian.

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Old
01-29-2014, 09:06 AM
  #57
Velociraptor
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If this poll has any implications, it's that the Czech's should have no problem winning gold.


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