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Old
01-23-2014, 03:06 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
I agree and that is what is aggravating about the trade....

We trade a guy with some actual skill who ran into some injury setbacks for a stay at home defensemen who has very little upside other than hoping in any given year he plays within his limitations....sad!
The most frustrating part of the trade was that the team had a few major needs. Two of which were 1st line winger and #1 Dman. We traded the only player in the organization who could fill one of those needs for a player that was never going to fill the other.

Here we are 2 seasons later with the same needs, wasting away years of our star player's career by anchoring his line with a shuffle of 3rd line level players.

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01-23-2014, 03:34 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
The most frustrating part of the trade was that the team had a few major needs. Two of which were 1st line winger and #1 Dman. We traded the only player in the organization who could fill one of those needs for a player that was never going to fill the other.

Here we are 2 seasons later with the same needs, wasting away years of our star player's career by anchoring his line with a shuffle of 3rd line level players.
I think you might be remembering things wrong here. At the time, offense was unequivocally not a problem. The Flyers were third in the league in goals scored and were flush with talent at forward. The Flyers were in the bottom third of the league in goals against, with a pretty bad defense and in need of a young, defensive defenseman with a high ceiling. Sure, they also needed a true #1 defenseman, like 20 other teams in the league, but a more attainable need was a top flight defensive defenseman. There was no reason to think that at 22, Luke Schenn would have any less of a shot to reach his potential than JvR would. The trade made sense at the time. The Leafs may have gotten a better player, but the Flyers filled a more important need.

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01-23-2014, 04:15 PM
  #503
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5 vs 5
PlayerCorsi Rel QoCCorsi RelativeCorsi Rel QoTZone Start %
Coburn1.3002.62.93651.3
Timonen0.77713.93.06257.3
Grossmann0.761-14.60.90346.0
Streit0.0490.2-0.85454.5
Meszaros-0.2460.2-0.38652.6
Schenn-0.360-2.7-0.04354.3



Coburn- According to Advanced Stats Coburn is up there with some of the Best Dman in the NHL, the only advantage he got over them he have better teammates and start in the OZ more than them

basically if your Corsi Rel QoC is higher than 0.75 and you have a positive Corsi Relative then you're a very good Dman

-Timonen's Corsi Relative is amazing(3rd among Dman) and it's against some very good Competion , Muzzin is 1st and he's facing a way easier competion than rest, so i would say Timonen is 2nd among the good group of Dman .

Giordano,Vlasic,Timonen,Braun have some amazing Stats but he gets a little more help and have more OZS than them.

-Grossmann's Corsi Relative is horrible (3rd worst among Dman), but he faces some serious competition and doesn't have same Quality of Teammates as Coburn or Timonen.

-Streit hard to say if that Corsi Relative is a good or bad thing because he have a bad Corsi Rel Quality of teammates(13th worst among Dman)

Mez- meh seeing him on ice is enough

Schenn-

Edit : if you're wondering what the hell is this Rel Corsi thing For example, Timonen Corsi REL is 13.9, which means ~14 shots more per 60 minutes of even strength ice time were directed at the opponents net while he was on the ice then when he wasn't.


Last edited by Flyerss: 01-23-2014 at 04:22 PM.
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01-23-2014, 04:17 PM
  #504
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Trade Schenn and Grossmann for a 1st+ and then sign Girardi and Niskanen and bring up MAB or even Morin? Just a thought.

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01-23-2014, 04:31 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Trade Schenn and Grossmann for a 1st+ and then sign Girardi and Niskanen and bring up MAB or even Morin? Just a thought.
Eh. MAB is going to need time to get up to speed at an AHL level, much less an NHL level. Morin isn't ready from what I can gather without actually having seen him play.

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01-23-2014, 04:43 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Eh. MAB is going to need time to get up to speed at an AHL level, much less an NHL level. Morin isn't ready from what I can gather without actually having seen him play.
That and I doubt we'd get a 1st, much less anything along with that for Schenn and Grossmann. Maybe we could get a couple 2nd's for them.

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01-23-2014, 04:49 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
That and I doubt we'd get a 1st, much less anything along with that for Schenn and Grossmann. Maybe we could get a couple 2nd's for them.
I imagine 2nd+ a later pick each.

The thing that is most annoying though is that Schenn showed us last year what he could be... a very solid D man who was lights out in his own zone and on the PK, strong and intimidating on the boards, gave his heart and soul, could play 22 minutes a night and when paired with a good puckmover looked to be the best D man on the team from a purely defensive standpoint, and made the simple, good play most of the time.

This year he looks like a completely different player.

One thing I will say with Schenn... his first pass (and maybe passing overall) is pretty underrated around here, yeh, he has limited puck skills overall, (you do not want him carrying a puck up ice) but his first pass is usually right on the mark.

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01-23-2014, 05:41 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I imagine 2nd+ a later pick each.

The thing that is most annoying though is that Schenn showed us last year what he could be... a very solid D man who was lights out in his own zone and on the PK, strong and intimidating on the boards, gave his heart and soul, could play 22 minutes a night and when paired with a good puckmover looked to be the best D man on the team from a purely defensive standpoint, and made the simple, good play most of the time.

This year he looks like a completely different player.

One thing I will say with Schenn... his first pass (and maybe passing overall) is pretty underrated around here, yeh, he has limited puck skills overall, (you do not want him carrying a puck up ice) but his first pass is usually right on the mark.
I totally agree. I think the adrenaline & focus of a new city, fresh start, and his bro. helped him a lot. I just want to see Schenn in the Playoffs, I think that atmosphere will turn him beast-mode.

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01-23-2014, 05:46 PM
  #509
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Luke's career has been defined by a good-bad-good-bad pattern from season to season. I think it'll be interesting to see how he does next year.

I wonder if he has a good season, gets complacent in the offseason, has a bad season, works hard to fix issues, has a good season, repeat process?

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01-24-2014, 02:03 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Luke's career has been defined by a good-bad-good-bad pattern from season to season. I think it'll be interesting to see how he does next year.

I wonder if he has a good season, gets complacent in the offseason, has a bad season, works hard to fix issues, has a good season, repeat process?
That's possible. If that's the case I'd move on, and quickly. I'm sure the coaching staff sees enough of him "behind the scenes" to know if that's the case.

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01-24-2014, 02:06 PM
  #511
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That's possible. If that's the case I'd move on, and quickly. I'm sure the coaching staff sees enough of him "behind the scenes" to know if that's the case.
Patterson is supposedly keen on talent...I wonder if they even conferred with him on Schenn? He's probably like WTF.....

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01-24-2014, 02:21 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you might be remembering things wrong here. At the time, offense was unequivocally not a problem. The Flyers were third in the league in goals scored and were flush with talent at forward. The Flyers were in the bottom third of the league in goals against, with a pretty bad defense and in need of a young, defensive defenseman with a high ceiling. Sure, they also needed a true #1 defenseman, like 20 other teams in the league, but a more attainable need was a top flight defensive defenseman. There was no reason to think that at 22, Luke Schenn would have any less of a shot to reach his potential than JvR would. The trade made sense at the time. The Leafs may have gotten a better player, but the Flyers filled a more important need.
No... just lots of no.

Schenn is not a top flight defensive defenseman.

The team needed puck moving defenseman.. like they do now.

The team needed a #1 winger that could score goals to play with Giroux...like they do now.

They traded a player that filled a need for a player that didn't. Yes the D needed help, but no Schenn is not the help it needed. If Jvr was here there would be no calls for Bobby Ryan...except from Prongo.

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01-24-2014, 07:33 PM
  #513
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I say your all barking up the wrong tree. This is a case of not having a good breakout scheme. The coaches do not have the correct pairings and don't have a quick breakout. The amount of passing and backtracking in our own zone is frightening. This is what you get from promoting inexperienced head coaches(Stevens,Berube). We made a huge mistake unloading Hitch before and panicking and unloading Lavy. For all that Lavy had with the Flyers they never gave him competent goalies. Flyers fans don't have patience for an OJT head coach.

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01-24-2014, 08:05 PM
  #514
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I say your all barking up the wrong tree. This is a case of not having a good breakout scheme. The coaches do not have the correct pairings and don't have a quick breakout. The amount of passing and backtracking in our own zone is frightening. This is what you get from promoting inexperienced head coaches(Stevens,Berube). We made a huge mistake unloading Hitch before and panicking and unloading Lavy. For all that Lavy had with the Flyers they never gave him competent goalies. Flyers fans don't have patience for an OJT head coach.
He had Bob, and prematurely pulled him in the playoffs leading to a case of musical goalies.

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01-24-2014, 08:20 PM
  #515
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Bob had promise, but made some rookie mistakes. Foolishly we traded him for Bryz. He'd have gotten his chance had management not traded him. Not On Lavy. He had to deal with that bum Bryz and that ruined his time here. We should have kept him and given him a chance with Mason. Pulled the trigger to fast to install a rookie coach. Now it appears he is exactly that, a rookie.

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01-25-2014, 06:37 AM
  #516
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Looking away from the advanced stats, Schenn is just looking awful out there. He's the one making the mistake on at least half the goals we concede it seems. It's either going in off him, goes in as he dives in in vain or simply sees him facing in the wrong direction. He's just awful.

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01-25-2014, 09:31 AM
  #517
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The Schen/Mez pairing is attrocious in our end.

The thing about Luke to me is that he makes good plays with the puck when he has time to make them. Good first pass and is very effective in getting pucks to the net from the point (although they never seem to stir anything up...at all). His zone coverage is good when he doesn't look like a tub of lead.

This being said, he looks like **** out there this year. We know that he made some huge mistakes in his offseason training to bulk up and was already just barely hovering over a thin line of speed that was keeping his body up with the play at the same way his head can. That was barely. This year he's even slower and it's put him below that threshold. He is a vey capable defender but his legs simply aren't keeping him in position and up with the speed of the game and for someone who struggled with speed to begin with, its seeming as though this is a deficit he likely won't overcome during the season.

You turn him around once in his own zone and you're gone. Zero accelertion from stopped and even worse when changing direction.

Him and his brother both need to go to Gary Roberts in the summer or something, as speed and acceleration were already their biggest detractors going into LAST offseason. If he can get Simmonds moving the way he is, Im sure he can speed up the Schenns enough.

Really needs to start putting his body infront of the puck to hold the blueline too-- the most basic change you make as a defenceman struggling with your hands to hold the offensive blueline.

All this being said, I at least think he's realized that he ****ed up bad in the offseason. His skating/conditioning is probably what he was sat for earlier in the season. I think he takes some big steps correcting this in the offseason. If not, then thats where my patience ends for him.

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01-25-2014, 11:44 AM
  #518
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Originally Posted by gto64dr View Post
Bob had promise, but made some rookie mistakes. Foolishly we traded him for Bryz. He'd have gotten his chance had management not traded him. Not On Lavy. He had to deal with that bum Bryz and that ruined his time here. We should have kept him and given him a chance with Mason. Pulled the trigger to fast to install a rookie coach. Now it appears he is exactly that, a rookie.
Lavy burned Bob's AHL eligibility in the playoff start, then didn't use him again. He certainly bears some responsibility in poor asset management. If he gives you the best chance to win, by all means, you burn the eligibility.... but if he gives you the best chance to win, he gets more than 1 game in the playoffs to prove it.

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01-29-2014, 11:43 AM
  #519
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Van riemsdyk continually trending upward for leafs

Interesting...yup..was always mental with JVR.

Quote:
TORONTO – When Maple Leafs head coach Randy Carlyle first coached James van Riemsdyk last season, he was met initially with a hardheadedness that reminded him of someone very familiar.

"Maybe I looked in the mirror," Carlyle said, chuckling as he walked off.

Blossoming into something special for the Leafs, van Riemsdyk set a new career-high Tuesday night with his 41st point this season, also equaling a career mark with his 21st goal of the year, the game-winner in a 3-2 edging of the Lightning.

All the 24-year-old desired when he was traded from Philadelphia to Toronto in the summer of 2012 was an opportunity to prove himself on a grander stage and, with that opportunity, he has most certainly flourished. In addition to goals and points, van Riemsdyk has also set new career-highs in power-play goals (8), shots (186), shorthanded goals (1) and power play points (14), already having matched a career-high in assists with 20 on the season – all this in just 53 games.

He is also fetching nearly 21 minutes per game – by far the highest of a five-year career – teaming with Phil Kessel and Tyler Bozak on what's become an offensively dominant top line.

"That was the key for me is the opportunity," said van Riemsdyk, who feigned no surprise when he was traded for Luke Schenn in a long-rumoured deal on June 23, 2012. "I was always confident in myself as far I think I proved it in Philly. I showed when I had the opportunity to play a lot, play in those key situations, that I was able to be a productive player. I've been able to get more of those opportunities since coming here.

"For me personally, I think it was good to start somewhere else, go to a place where I was going to get a chance to show what I can do."


..................."He used to be a guy 'yeah, but' [or] 'but if'," Carlyle said of van Riemsdyk's response to coaching. "But he's not that [anymore]. Now he's more receptive to [it] … There's a difference between coaching and criticism. Sometimes they all become the same to players. That's the difficult part is when to use it, when not to use it as a coach."

It was only days into the 2013 campaign that Carlyle first publicly prodded van Riemsdyk. "He's got to go into the dirty areas a little bit more and that's one of the things we're going to ask of him," said Carlyle before an early season game against Pittsburgh. "He's a big man, who can go to the front of the net. He's got soft hands around the net. We want to see him drive that puck to that area..."





http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/blogs/jonas_siegel/?id=442442

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01-29-2014, 11:46 AM
  #520
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Interesting...yup..was always mental with JVR.
Another young player nearly ruined by Lavi.

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01-29-2014, 11:49 AM
  #521
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Another young player nearly ruined by Lavi.
Exactly what I was thinking....obviously JVR shared some responsibility though but as I've said ..as a GM you have to be careful about who you have as a coach when you have young players that you want to develop into your core. Lavi is not that kind of coach. I do believe he was mishandling B Schenn and Couturier....

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01-29-2014, 11:56 AM
  #522
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Exactly what I was thinking....obviously JVR shared some responsibility though but as I've said ..as a GM you have to be careful about who you have as a coach when you have young players that you want to develop into your core. Lavi is not that kind of coach. I do believe he was mishandling B Schenn and Couturier....
JVR's numbers went up as soon as his ice time was increased in Toronto.

Schenn has basically been pretty much the same so far, produces more despite getting lesser minutes than most players on the team. That's why I would love to see him center a line of Giroux & Voracek on his wings going forward & get bumped up to the first PP unit to maximize his production. He could be a 30 goal scorer in this league with that.

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01-29-2014, 12:04 PM
  #523
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JVR's numbers went up as soon as his ice time was increased in Toronto.

Schenn has basically been pretty much the same so far, produces more despite getting lesser minutes than most players on the team. That's why I would love to see him center a line of Giroux & Voracek on his wings going forward & get bumped up to the first PP unit to maximize his production. He could be a 30 goal scorer in this league with that.
Frustrating....worse is how Lavi mishandled Bob as well.

BTW..was Lavi ever interviewed after his firing? I don't recall a former flyer coach not making some statements after being let go..even if it was some time after. Curious what Lavi's take was on his whole tenure with the Flyers...

BTW2- Read some of the comments of the TSN JVR article..ugh. Here is 1

Quote:
Getting JVR for Luke Schenn was prehaps one of the best deals in the last few years...along with the Lupul deal, Leafs management has made strides over the last few years..granted mistakes have been made, like drafting Schenn in the first place..but the trade more then made up for that..thanks Philly


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01-29-2014, 12:28 PM
  #524
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No... just lots of no.

Schenn is not a top flight defensive defenseman.
You definitely need to go back and check your facts. While agree Schenn is not a top flight defenseman, when he was 22 years old and acquired, he still had the potential to be that guy (I know, I know, it was obvious he wouldn't get any better because he just wouldn't).

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The team needed puck moving defenseman.. like they do now.
Again, check your facts. The team had Matt Carle, Kimmo (younger and more able than he is now), Gus (who was/is a surefire top four PMD, remember???), Coburn, and Mesz (who had just come off a good season, which I know isn't really as good as I think for whatever reason you want to put out there). Their defensive defenseman...Grossmann. It was all PMDs. No defensive guys. The team was bottom ten in GA (which I know obviously was the goalie's fault, not the defense).

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The team needed a #1 winger that could score goals to play with Giroux...like they do now.
And you had two 22 year old players. Voracek and JvR. One who had played in far more games and has put up more points than the other. Yeah, I guess they needed JvR AND Voracek to play on that top line with Hartnell and Giroux.

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They traded a player that filled a need for a player that didn't. Yes the D needed help, but no Schenn is not the help it needed. If Jvr was here there would be no calls for Bobby Ryan...except from Prongo.
No, they traded from a position of strength (offense) to fill a position of weakness (defense). Schenn was 22 and a promising defender. If you are really going tell me that that is not the case, then you are simply in denial. The team was 3rd in Goals For and 20th in Goals Against. They had a glut of young forward talent (JvR, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds) and no young defensive talent of which to speak. It was a move that made sense at the time. It is very strange to act like they needed that offense in some bad way given the fact that they were top three in the league in scoring and had five or six young forwards with a ton of potential under the age of 25 and that the need for a young, high ceiling defenseman wasn't there.

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01-29-2014, 12:42 PM
  #525
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Really hope Toronto misses the playoffs.

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