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Old
01-29-2014, 11:46 AM
  #51
Inferno
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I'm not going through every PPG he assisted on, but three of his primary PPG assists from this month alone:

Nash goal vs WSH: simple pass to an open Nash, who then hesitates for a bit and scores from the hashmarks on a wristshot.

Kreider goal vs PHI: Kreider jukes like 2 guys and scores on that backhand. Richards made a lunging pass at the blueline to find Kreider on the sideboards/hashmarks, but ultimately a terrible play by PHI.

Nash goal vs CBJ: Passes from sideboards to an open Nash at the point, his wrist shot finds its way in.

I'm not trying to downplay what Richards has done this year, but he's brought nearly NOTHING that other players couldn't have also done, aside from playing center and scoring a few goals.

At least in Stepan's case, for example, he's made a few passes on the PP where you can say that it was the reason they scored. Richards, not so much.
yeah, thats kinda what i mean, its just like...you *watch* him, he gets a point, and you think to yourself...does the guy really deserve a point for what he did? I guess, but still.

when Zucc gets his points he usually earned them by making a very good play, a "unique" play so to speak. moving the puck around and then having someone make a great play and you get an assist is kinda lame.

Richards points this year are kinda misleading. All he's doing is shooting more....

I havent been super impressed....im happy that we didnt buy him out last offseason (Which is exactly what I was clamoring for) but you HAVE to buy him out this offseason...he hasnt "Regained" his game, hes just become what he is...a point producer without being an impact player. i want my money ready when an impact player, like Rick Nash, becomes available.

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01-29-2014, 11:46 AM
  #52
Brian Boyle
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Can someone post the cap implications of buying him out the old fashioned way AFTER this summer? He's got 6 years left on his deal...obviously we're going to get reduced production from him going forward. The question is how badly a buyout down the road will hurt our cap situation.
It's ugly: http://capgeek.com/buyout-calculator...06&buyout_d=15

His cap-hit for those three fake years on the end would be greater with a buy-out than without!

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Old
01-29-2014, 11:47 AM
  #53
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I don't see the NYRs being able to acquire a 1st line center and that would be a major contributing factor in releasing BR. I would rather look to acquiring some scoring wingers to fill out the first two lines, especially the 1st line where it has been years since we had a legit 1st line.

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01-29-2014, 11:51 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DekeR View Post
I don't see the NYRs being able to acquire a 1st line center and that would be a major contributing factor in releasing BR. I would rather look to acquiring some scoring wingers to fill out the first two lines, especially the 1st line where it has been years since we had a legit 1st line.
People keep saying that being left without a 1st line center is the main reason why Richards shouldn't be bought out.

Honestly, even with him I think this team still needs a true 1st line center, so where's the loss?

He hasn't been a terrible player for this team (besides stretches last year), but he hasn't lived up to expectations either. Why hold on to an aging player eating a lot of cap hoping that situation somehow fixes itself?

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01-29-2014, 12:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
People keep saying that being left without a 1st line center is the main reason why Richards shouldn't be bought out.

Honestly, even with him I think this team still needs a true 1st line center, so where's the loss?

He hasn't been a terrible player for this team (besides stretches last year), but he hasn't lived up to expectations either. Why hold on to an aging player eating a lot of cap hoping that situation somehow fixes itself?

I guess the thinking is that two above average second line centers (Step and Brad) plus one below average one (Brass) makes up for not having a 1C. Superior performance on the second and third line makes up for a slightly less than satisfying first line.

Also we would presumably be saving some money once Miller and Lindberg are ready to take over the bottom 6.

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01-29-2014, 12:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
I guess the thinking is that two above average second line centers (Step and Brad) plus one below average one (Brass) makes up for not having a 1C. Superior performance on the second and third line makes up for a slightly less than satisfying first line.

Also we would presumably be saving some money once Miller and Lindberg are ready to take over the bottom 6.
I just don't think it's unanimous that Richards is still an above average second line center at this point, let alone going forward.

I'd say he's a pretty standard 3rd line center at this point with some talent on the PP. He's incredibly replaceable, regardless of price.

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01-29-2014, 12:37 PM
  #57
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I don't buy him out unless we have a center who is better than him. Stepan is not better than Richards. Richards is our #1 center right now.

At $6.6M, his cap hit isn't an issue anymore. It's a modest price for a 60-point center.

And I don't want Stastny. Why would we get him? Because he is younger? He is still another 60-point center who won't make a world of difference.

To swap out one 60-point center, who has proven to score 60-points in the Big Apple, for another 60-point center who hasn't played here, and will likely come at a cap hit of $6.6M or greater isn't a step forward. It's a step back in my opinion.

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01-29-2014, 12:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I just don't think it's unanimous that Richards is still an above average second line center at this point, let alone going forward.

I'd say he's a pretty standard 3rd line center at this point with some talent on the PP. He's incredibly replaceable, regardless of price.
That is ridiculous and shows extreme bias against him.

This season, 2013-2014, he has 38 points this season, which ranks 28th amongst centers.

In 2012-2013 he ranked 22nd amongst centers in points.

In 2011-2012 he ranked 13th amongst centers in points.

People need to stop with this hate towards him. Saying he is a serviceable 3rd line center is outrageous. He's a 2nd line center at worse. If you routinely score in the top-30 for centers, you're a top-30 center. Which makes him a borderline 1st line center, and a SOLID second line center. SOLID.

People on here act like Richards has been bush league for us. He has 138 points in 182 games (0.76PTS/GM which is a 62 point pace).

A routine 60+ point center is a borderline 1st line center, and rock solid 2nd line center.

What would Stastny bring to the table? Let's take a look at his last three years. 115 points in 167 games (0.69PTS/GM which is a 56 point pace). Furthermore, Richards has outscored him every season since joining the Rangers. This season they're tied.

Stastny currently has a $6.6M payroll, and will likely look for a raise and get between $7M and 7.5M.

Why pay more money for a less productive center? Because he is younger? That's stupid. With Thornton and Marleau off the market, there is no better center than Richards available.

You just don't throw away 60 point players because they have what is now considered a manageable cap hit (or to sign Callahan to an albatross of a contract of $6M+)

Stepan and Brassard? Oh dear.

We'd be worse off with Stastny at a higher cap, Stepan, and Brassard than our current set up right now.

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01-29-2014, 01:08 PM
  #59
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I really think a lot of people are living in fantasy hockey world think Sather will buy out Commander Beaver. Maybe that's the smart thing to do but really? I know you guys really want that to happen, but you really really think Sather, our Glen Sather is going to do that? One can only hope that he can pull a Gomez, especially since Richards probably has actual trade value at the moment so Glen doesn't have to stretch the wool as much with his illusionist tricks.

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01-29-2014, 01:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I really think a lot of people are living in fantasy hockey world think Sather will buy out Commander Beaver. Maybe that's the smart thing to do but really? I know you guys really want that to happen, but you really really think Sather, our Glen Sather is going to do that? One can only hope that he can pull a Gomez, especially since Richards probably has actual trade value at the moment so Glen doesn't have to stretch the wool as much with his illusionist tricks.
Well Sather did already use an amnesty buyout on Redden, so it's no fantasy to think he could do it again. No idea what you mean by that.

And Richards does not have trade value now. The Gomez comparison doesn't work - Gomez was 30 at the time of the trade, Richards will be 34 in May.

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01-29-2014, 01:25 PM
  #61
Slick Rick 61
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I really think a lot of people are living in fantasy hockey world think Sather will buy out Commander Beaver. Maybe that's the smart thing to do but really? I know you guys really want that to happen, but you really really think Sather, our Glen Sather is going to do that? One can only hope that he can pull a Gomez, especially since Richards probably has actual trade value at the moment so Glen doesn't have to stretch the wool as much with his illusionist tricks.
I'm really not even sure how much Sather really participates in day-to-day activities. He defers a whole lot more work than one would think to Gorton and the staff. Have to think with Sather likely moving upstairs full-time in solely the President role, his heir apparent will likely have a call in this. Let him put his stamp on the team.

19MM for a player to go away is hard to swallow, but Dolan has done it before with his teams, and he'll do it again.

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01-29-2014, 01:26 PM
  #62
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Absolutely have to buy him out. No question. Worst case scenario and we can't sign Stastny I'd still rather roll Stepan/Brassard as our top 2 centers and have the cap space. My ideal situation:

1. Buy out Richards
2. Sign Stastny to 5/35

Automatically makes us better, but I'm also of the belief that Stastny of today is better than Richards of today

Then:

3. Trade (1) of Stepan/Brassard for help elsewhere. If Brassard goes on a torrid pace the rest of the year and is good in the playoffs, management should feel confident in him going forward and can move Stepan for a NICE package. If he remains average, move him for a pick + B+ level prospect. The former situation leaves us with:

Stastny
Brassard
Miller
Boyle/Moore/whoever

latter situation leaves us with:

Stastny
Stepan
Miller
Boyle/Moore/whoever

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01-29-2014, 01:27 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
I'm really not even sure how much Sather really participates in day-to-day activities. He defers a whole lot more work than one would think to Gorton and the staff.
What are you basing this knowledge on?

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01-29-2014, 01:31 PM
  #64
Slick Rick 61
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How prevalent and visible Jeff Gorton is. All of the things we see RB post here indicate that Sather is indeed, while still very active, deferring quite a bit of work. Does he even travel to all road games anymore?

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01-29-2014, 01:35 PM
  #65
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What was the deal if he goes on LTIR? Was it NYR could not buy him out or will he still count against the cap?
To me it is not about his play as much as his play 2-6 years from now and the amount of dead weight on the cap. The NHL could keep growing it can also hit an upper limit and the cap can get stuck at around 70-75 mil for several years, then he will be almost 10% of the cap! It seems like many fans of many teams are getting fed up with the overall price increases to be a fan. The price of tickets has got to keep many potential fans away also. So building a team concept(business plan) on a maybe, is well, just plain stupid.

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01-29-2014, 01:38 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
That is ridiculous and shows extreme bias against him.

This season, 2013-2014, he has 38 points this season, which ranks 28th amongst centers.

In 2012-2013 he ranked 22nd amongst centers in points.

In 2011-2012 he ranked 13th amongst centers in points.

People need to stop with this hate towards him. Saying he is a serviceable 3rd line center is outrageous. He's a 2nd line center at worse. If you routinely score in the top-30 for centers, you're a top-30 center. Which makes him a borderline 1st line center, and a SOLID second line center. SOLID.

People on here act like Richards has been bush league for us. He has 138 points in 182 games (0.76PTS/GM which is a 62 point pace).

A routine 60+ point center is a borderline 1st line center, and rock solid 2nd line center.

What would Stastny bring to the table? Let's take a look at his last three years. 115 points in 167 games (0.69PTS/GM which is a 56 point pace). Furthermore, Richards has outscored him every season since joining the Rangers. This season they're tied.

Stastny currently has a $6.6M payroll, and will likely look for a raise and get between $7M and 7.5M.

Why pay more money for a less productive center? Because he is younger? That's stupid. With Thornton and Marleau off the market, there is no better center than Richards available.

You just don't throw away 60 point players because they have what is now considered a manageable cap hit (or to sign Callahan to an albatross of a contract of $6M+)

Stepan and Brassard? Oh dear.

We'd be worse off with Stastny at a higher cap, Stepan, and Brassard than our current set up right now.
while I agree that Richards is better than a 3rd line center. I disagree that we would be worse off with Stastny than Richards.

Stastny has not been fed a steady diet of Gaborik and Nash the last 3 seasons.

Stastny is and has been a better FO man resulting in a better puck possession team.

Stastny is head and shoulders the better skater.

Stastny spends almost 2 full minutes LESS per game on the PP than Richards.

Stastny is also a better defensive pivot than Richards.

And finally all things being equal in terms of production, Stastny at 28 is more likely to maintain his 55 to 60 point pace over the next 5-6 years than Richards is at 34

if the difference is 6.66 for Brad over the next 6 years to Stastny's 7.25 during that same time frame, I take Stastny Each and every time.

And while they are tied in points, Stastny is on pace for 61 points in 78 games where Richards in on pace for 58 points in 82 games.

At one point, not to long ago, Richards was the clear cut better choice.

That was 4+ years ago.

Old players get older, young players get better.

In this case, today and I expect for the next 4-6 years, Stastny is a better player than Richards

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01-29-2014, 01:38 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by No Fehr View Post
What was the deal if he goes on LTIR? Was it NYR could not buy him out or will he still count against the cap?
To me it is not about his play as much as his play 2-6 years from now and the amount of dead weight on the cap. The NHL could keep growing it can also hit an upper limit and the cap can get stuck at around 70-75 mil for several years, then he will be almost 10% of the cap! It seems like many fans of many teams are getting fed up with the overall price increases to be a fan. The price of tickets has got to keep many potential fans away also. So building a team concept(business plan) on a maybe, is well, just plain stupid.
Injured players cannot be bought out. Don't quote me on this one, but if they do miss the end of the season, they have to be deemed medically fit to play in order for a buyout to occur. LTIR is a in-season temporary cap relief measure, but that 6.67MM cap charge (in the event of him being injured), sucks up a large portion of the 10% overage on the cap. Even if he does get hurt, he greatly hinders your summer flexibility, especially considering how many deals this team has to get done in the not-too-distant future. That's another risk.

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01-29-2014, 01:39 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
How prevalent and visible Jeff Gorton is. All of the things we see RB post here indicate that Sather is indeed, while still very active, deferring quite a bit of work. Does he even travel to all road games anymore?
While Sather may be delegating (like all GM's should) everything is still his call. He was the one who showed his big fat cigar face after the Caps series last year so the media could genuflect toward him, so he's also the one who gets the blame for his own stupidity.

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01-29-2014, 01:42 PM
  #69
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it would be god awful if he didn't buy out richie but its got to happen.
then again if do and send a boat load of money at Paul Stastny its almost the same boat. yeah he's younger but still can't skate to safe his life anymore.
What this guy said.

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01-29-2014, 01:43 PM
  #70
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Thanks Slick Rick

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01-29-2014, 01:47 PM
  #71
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I just don't think it's unanimous that Richards is still an above average second line center at this point, let alone going forward.

I'd say he's a pretty standard 3rd line center at this point with some talent on the PP. He's incredibly replaceable, regardless of price.

Richards is on pace for 58 points this season. That's not 3rd line performance. He's tied for 51th in points among all forwards, and since there are 90 first liners (30 teams times 3 players), that's very much first line offensive ability. Among centers only, he's also in the top-30 at #28, so again he's producing offensively as a low-end first liner.

Whatever issues you may have with him in the rest of his game, the offense alone makes him very much a top-6 player. To suggest he's a third liner is utterly preposterous.

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01-29-2014, 01:51 PM
  #72
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If a 34 year old Brad Richards were a UFA this summer, would you want to sign him to a six-year deal worth $6.667M per?
Good point. Put me in the "No" group.

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01-29-2014, 01:57 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Why pay more money for a less productive center? Because he is younger? That's stupid.
This is the part I disagree with, I think Richards is likely to decline over his next 6 years much more than Stastny would over those same 6 years.

To be slightly more accurate on the stats

Stastny 3145 total minutes over the last 3 years
115 pts
.036 pts per min

Richards 3558 total minutes over lat 3 years
138 pts
.038 pts per min

Stastny, all else being equal (which it never really is but anyway), would have had ~10 less points than Richards over the last 3 years if he had the same ice time.

And that is without even looking at the power play time each player received, Richards 703 mins, Stastny 403 mins

Not saying Stastny is the better player right now, or ever was, my opinion is that over the last three years they are very similar in terms of production per overall ice time, Richards had a big advantage in power play time over those years, and I think Richards is likely to decline rather quickly from here on out.

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01-29-2014, 02:10 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
People keep saying that being left without a 1st line center is the main reason why Richards shouldn't be bought out.

Honestly, even with him I think this team still needs a true 1st line center, so where's the loss?

He hasn't been a terrible player for this team (besides stretches last year), but he hasn't lived up to expectations either. Why hold on to an aging player eating a lot of cap hoping that situation somehow fixes itself?
I can understand the thoughts that an aging player, like Richards represents to the long term health of this team but I am not saying that he is a 1st line player either. I just don't see the NYRs being able to acquire a 1st line center and if that is the case then you need to proceed with the next available option and that is trying to secure scoring wingers. Granted every team is in that market but you can always find something, especially when you are at or near the bottom third of the league in scoring. I look at Richards as doing a very good job considering his point totals and this teams inability to score on a consistent basis and at times any basis. I just don't see a Stast being any better and come PO time he is even worse. With the increase in cap slated for at least the next few years I don't see the contract being a hinderance. But I get your point also.

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01-29-2014, 02:25 PM
  #75
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But why should it be held against Richards that he gets more PP time?

Richards is a good PP player. Getting more points on the PP doesn't make you less effective.

I understand, if Stastny played that extra 300 minutes on the PP, you can argue he would have had more points, but he didn't.

Richards is a big reason, along with MZA, that the PP is vastly improved this year. To me, Richards bringing it on the PP is a positive.

And if it was the choice of letting Richards go and signing Stastny or NOT signing Stastny, I'd prefer to just buyout Richards and roll Stepan/Brassard.

No reason to overpay Stastny on the open market, who hasn't had a 70+ point season in years, at ~ $7.5M. We will have another situation where we acquire a center at a significant cost who will only put up 55-60 points. I'd rather save that cap for when a game breaking asset, if it ever does happen, hits the market.

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