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Old
01-29-2014, 02:39 PM
  #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You definitely need to go back and check your facts. While agree Schenn is not a top flight defenseman, when he was 22 years old and acquired, he still had the potential to be that guy (I know, I know, it was obvious he wouldn't get any better because he just wouldn't).



Again, check your facts. The team had Matt Carle, Kimmo (younger and more able than he is now), Gus (who was/is a surefire top four PMD, remember???), Coburn, and Mesz (who had just come off a good season, which I know isn't really as good as I think for whatever reason you want to put out there). Their defensive defenseman...Grossmann. It was all PMDs. No defensive guys. The team was bottom ten in GA (which I know obviously was the goalie's fault, not the defense).



And you had two 22 year old players. Voracek and JvR. One who had played in far more games and has put up more points than the other. Yeah, I guess they needed JvR AND Voracek to play on that top line with Hartnell and Giroux.



No, they traded from a position of strength (offense) to fill a position of weakness (defense). Schenn was 22 and a promising defender. If you are really going tell me that that is not the case, then you are simply in denial. The team was 3rd in Goals For and 20th in Goals Against. They had a glut of young forward talent (JvR, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds) and no young defensive talent of which to speak. It was a move that made sense at the time. It is very strange to act like they needed that offense in some bad way given the fact that they were top three in the league in scoring and had five or six young forwards with a ton of potential under the age of 25 and that the need for a young, high ceiling defenseman wasn't there.
You can try your wall of text PR spins all you want, but I'm not getting into it on this one. Myself and a lot of other people on this board and even in the media called it a bad deal the day it happened.

#1 Carle wasn't going to be on the team. #2 they had just been stomped by NJ in the playoffs and we were all calling for a better system and better puck moving defensemen. But who am I to argue with your revisionist history.

The team needed a #1 D and a goal scoring #1 winger to play with Giroux. They still need both, while the guy they had that would have filled one of those needs is playing for another team.

You don't trade a player of JVR's caliber for someone who amounts to a role player.

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01-29-2014, 02:44 PM
  #527
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I long for the day when I never have to hear about this ****ing trade, much like I felt after the Sharp trade. Why do we keep bringing it up? Are we masochists?

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01-29-2014, 02:53 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I long for the day when I never have to hear about this ****ing trade, much like I felt after the Sharp trade. Why do we keep bringing it up? Are we masochists?
Would you expect anything less? We still hear about Shea Weber & Bobby Ryan till this day despite neither of them ever donning a Flyers jersey.

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01-29-2014, 02:54 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I long for the day when I never have to hear about this ****ing trade, much like I felt after the Sharp trade. Why do we keep bringing it up? Are we masochists?
Lol agreed. Most Flyers fans weren't thrilled about the trade when it happened. If JVR repeats this play and doesn't get worse (why would he?) he could be a 60 point player for the next 5-6 seasons on a contract of 4.25 million a season.

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01-29-2014, 02:55 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Would you expect anything less? We still hear about Shea Weber & Bobby Ryan till this day despite neither of them ever donning a Flyers jersey.
haha i sort of understand the bobby ryan stuff, the Weber stuff baffles me. Tried to get him, Nashville retained...end of story

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01-29-2014, 03:04 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Lol agreed. Most Flyers fans weren't thrilled about the trade when it happened. If JVR repeats this play and doesn't get worse (why would he?) he could be a 60 point player for the next 5-6 seasons on a contract of 4.25 million a season.
It's sucks but it is what it is. I do think there were some personal issues that lead to the trade as well. JVR always ignored what ever advice the front office gave him during his career here. I think him ignoring their advice of getting surgery was the final straw for him here.

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01-29-2014, 03:04 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Lol agreed. Most Flyers fans weren't thrilled about the trade when it happened. If JVR repeats this play and doesn't get worse (why would he?) he could be a 60 point player for the next 5-6 seasons on a contract of 4.25 million a season.
It's the best because the Flyers worked that contract out. It's an excellent contract, it's clear evidence that Holmgren can actually make really shrewd decisions...And they burn it to get Schenn. Honestly the concentrated essence of being a Flyers fan in that they'll take two steps forward, but only as a running start to kick you between the legs before jumping back three with a huge grin

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01-29-2014, 03:05 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
You can try your wall of text PR spins all you want, but I'm not getting into it on this one. Myself and a lot of other people on this board and even in the media called it a bad deal the day it happened.
Yourself and a lot of people on this board (and the media) complain about every move. That doesn't make them right. There were also a lot of people around here and in the media that were ok with the trade. Oh no! We both can't be right. I guess you win because Homer is involved.

Quote:
#1 Carle wasn't going to be on the team. #2 they had just been stomped by NJ in the playoffs and we were all calling for a better system and better puck moving defensemen. But who am I to argue with your revisionist history.
#1 IIRC, the plan still was to sign Carle (or if this board had their way, run him out of town and never hear from him again...then complain that Homer didn't pursue him enough). #2, please provide proof of this, because my recollection (and majority of the remarks in the trade thread) seem to be saying that this team needs defense and has a ton of offensive players. But I guess that doesn't count.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1215313

Quote:
The team needed a #1 D and a goal scoring #1 winger to play with Giroux. They still need both, while the guy they had that would have filled one of those needs is playing for another team.

You don't trade a player of JVR's caliber for someone who amounts to a role player.
The team traded a guy who had potential to be a top flight winger for a guy that had potential to be a top flight defender. Wait, nevermind, no they didn't. Luke Schenn was a piece of garbage. He was 22 and a former top five pick. He had shown all he can. NO PATIENCE (unless it is for 25 year old Gus, then PATIENCE). They were of the same caliber. JvR has developed into a better player (though he is vastly overrated around here because of this trade), but that doesn't mean at the time they weren't equals. This isn't like they traded a prospect for a year of an aging vet. They traded two, somewhat struggling, high-ceiling top five picks under 23 years old. Not really all that shocking. The only revisionist history going on here is you acting like JvR was any closer or more likely to reach his ceiling than Luke Schenn.

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01-29-2014, 03:08 PM
  #534
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Lmao appealing to the Philly sports media as conclusive authority that the trade was okay?

Jeepers.

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01-29-2014, 03:08 PM
  #535
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DFF, You're right. Who am I to argue with the Flyers' Director of Public Relations?

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01-29-2014, 03:15 PM
  #536
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Even if you considered both of their max potentials when you made the trade, it was trading a really good sirloin dinner for really good takeout pizza. Even if it's really good, you can get it any ding dang day of the week, so why trade a reservation at a nice steakhouse for it? The only answer is that Paul Holmgren still orders from the kids menu basically

im really hungry

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01-29-2014, 03:23 PM
  #537
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I just skimmed through the first several pages of the thread and what I saw was you (DFF) arguing with what the majority of the posters were saying.

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01-29-2014, 03:33 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I just skimmed through the first several pages of the thread and what I saw was you (DFF) arguing with what the majority of the posters were saying.
Lol, really? Because reading through the first four pages I see that I posted once per page, and that the majority were saying pretty much the same thing I am saying now (and was saying then). That it was a swap of two young high potential guys. Sure, there were people crying because the sky was falling (mostly because there wasn't a draft pick or prospect thrown in, not because Schenn was a scrub and JvR was a legend), but that happens with every trade. There were a couple people outraged, but the majority of people commenting rationally (i.e. not just saying "OMG THIS IS TERRIBLE WE SUCK LOLOLOL," but actually commenting about the trade, not how stupid Homer is or whatever), were saying that this was a move from a position of strength to improve a position of weakness. Weird, sounds like something I was saying back then...and now. But I must be reading things wrong and changing history again. Oh well.

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01-29-2014, 03:38 PM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post

The team traded a guy who had potential to be a top flight winger for a guy that had potential to be a top flight defender. Wait, nevermind, no they didn't. Luke Schenn was a piece of garbage. He was 22 and a former top five pick. He had shown all he can. NO PATIENCE (unless it is for 25 year old Gus, then PATIENCE). They were of the same caliber. JvR has developed into a better player (though he is vastly overrated around here because of this trade), but that doesn't mean at the time they weren't equals. This isn't like they traded a prospect for a year of an aging vet. They traded two, somewhat struggling, high-ceiling top five picks under 23 years old. Not really all that shocking. The only revisionist history going on here is you acting like JvR was any closer or more likely to reach his ceiling than Luke Schenn.
This is exactly right. At the time they both had potential. I was annoyed because I felt like they gave up on JVR after he had an injury plagued season, or just came off of one. I wasn't upset getting Schenn because he still had potential as well. It wasn't like everyone said "Well, Schenn has hit his ceiling and this is all he's going to be."

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01-29-2014, 03:50 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
This is exactly right. At the time they both had potential. I was annoyed because I felt like they gave up on JVR after he had an injury plagued season, or just came off of one. I wasn't upset getting Schenn because he still had potential as well. It wasn't like everyone said "Well, Schenn has hit his ceiling and this is all he's going to be."
And that's fine, I can understand not liking the trade because you felt it was "giving up" on JvR, though I wouldn't necessarily agree. But to pretend like this was some giant blunder because JvR was so much more valuable and Schenn was just some overrated scrub is just ridiculous.

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01-29-2014, 03:55 PM
  #541
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This is exactly right. At the time they both had potential. I was annoyed because I felt like they gave up on JVR after he had an injury plagued season, or just came off of one. I wasn't upset getting Schenn because he still had potential as well. It wasn't like everyone said "Well, Schenn has hit his ceiling and this is all he's going to be."
I like Luke & always have but even at that time that trade always had a potential risk to get ugly. I thought Homer should have at least looked for a pick back as well. In hindsight Jake Gardiner would have been a better target than Schenn, we could have really used his skill set more right now with how the defense is currently constructed.

We lost that trade but I still think if Schenn can find some consistency to his game & plays with that mean streak that comes out from time to time he could be a nice piece going forward if we get some better mix of defensemen.

JVR's a good player & his production has gone up with more minutes & better linemates but he still has some consistency issues of his own that leaves him going unnoticed for games & leaves you wanting more with a skill set like his.

It is what it is, I don't use that trade to look negatively at Schenn though.

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01-29-2014, 03:58 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And that's fine, I can understand not liking the trade because you felt it was "giving up" on JvR, though I wouldn't necessarily agree. But to pretend like this was some giant blunder because JvR was so much more valuable and Schenn was just some overrated scrub is just ridiculous.
JvR was much more valuable than Luke Schenn at the time the trade happened. JvR's ceiling was higher than Luke's ceiling, JvR's role is harder to fill than Luke's and JvR's NHL resume to that point was more impressive than Luke.

If it isn't a huge blunder, what exactly do you call trading a notably better player straight-up for a notably worse one?

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01-29-2014, 04:00 PM
  #543
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Hmm

I kind of forgot how I felt since it looks like I was on the fence....what is ironic is that in the posts after my initial 3 below I touched upon JVR's mental fortitude compared to Schenn's. From the TSN interview and Carlyle's comments looks like that was indeed what was holding JVR back the most while here and then the injuries came but the confidence thing was countered with more trust/patience from the coach and playing time in Toronto...



http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...97&postcount=9


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=345


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=868

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01-29-2014, 04:31 PM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff leonard View Post
JvR was much more valuable than Luke Schenn at the time the trade happened. JvR's ceiling was higher than Luke's ceiling, JvR's role is harder to fill than Luke's and JvR's NHL resume to that point was more impressive than Luke.

If it isn't a huge blunder, what exactly do you call trading a notably better player straight-up for a notably worse one?
I disagree with almost everything you said here.

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01-29-2014, 04:44 PM
  #545
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If Luke can spend an off-season getting faster instead of getting slower, he's going to a solid top-4 guy for us at least.

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01-29-2014, 04:46 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Lol, really? Because reading through the first four pages I see that I posted once per page, and that the majority were saying pretty much the same thing I am saying now (and was saying then). That it was a swap of two young high potential guys. Sure, there were people crying because the sky was falling (mostly because there wasn't a draft pick or prospect thrown in, not because Schenn was a scrub and JvR was a legend), but that happens with every trade. There were a couple people outraged, but the majority of people commenting rationally (i.e. not just saying "OMG THIS IS TERRIBLE WE SUCK LOLOLOL," but actually commenting about the trade, not how stupid Homer is or whatever), were saying that this was a move from a position of strength to improve a position of weakness. Weird, sounds like something I was saying back then...and now. But I must be reading things wrong and changing history again. Oh well.
Yea I just went through the first several pages and the Flyers fans saying bad trade double the Flyers fans saying good trade.

Which makes sense, otherwise you wouldn't have said

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Meh, judging form the reactions of people around here, one might say JvR is also wildly overrated. From the first time I saw him play on the Phantoms I wasn't big on him. When he played out of his mind in the playoffs, I turned around. This year he was riddled with injuries. Who knows what kind of season he will have next year. I don't think his improvement is any more or less guaranteed than Schenn's. Again, I still think the Flyers should have gotten a little more coming back, but at this point, I'd rather have Schenn than JvR.
Also we can debate how high Schenn's potential was/is. He had no offensive pedigree, and was a below average skater and puck handler. That type of player doesn't become a top pairing defenseman. The reason we're big on Morin is because even though his offense is limited he can still skate and move the puck. Things Schenn was never known to be able to do.

And before you say he was 22, those things just don't appear at the NHL level, they're apparent throughout a players development. Maybe those skills are raw, but they're still there. Schenn's are non existent.

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01-29-2014, 04:48 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by tymed View Post
If Luke can spend an off-season getting faster instead of getting slower, he's going to a solid top-4 guy for us at least.
we said that last year. The hardest thing an athlete can do is "get faster"

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01-29-2014, 04:54 PM
  #548
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we said that last year. The hardest thing an athlete can do is "get faster"
In fairness to Schenn, he actually looked good last season. This season he hasnt. Best games he has played have been the last two. Reminds me of Schenn of last season. When paired with a puckmoving defender who is atleast somewhat competent on defense, he has shown to do well. See with Timonen last season and now the last two games with Gustafsson.

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01-29-2014, 05:17 PM
  #549
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He looked good last season you're right. He was great for us, it was probably his best season and had the chance to continue improve on that by working on his skating and mobility. Instead, I remember reading that he and Brayden spent all their time on upper body strength, effectively adding weight and slowing them down. With the variety of training available today I'd think you should get noticeable results out of a guy that already doesn't move his size around that well to begin with. Simmonds going to Roberts training camp last summer looks to have done him wonders.

Does anyone know what Pronger is up to this season? I haven't heard about him mentoring or anything at all this year.

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01-29-2014, 05:18 PM
  #550
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I want Luke to work out with Gary Roberts.

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