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Old
01-29-2014, 04:30 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by tymed View Post
He looked good last season you're right. He was great for us, it was probably his best season and had the chance to continue improve on that by working on his skating and mobility. Instead, I remember reading that he and Brayden spent all their time on upper body strength, effectively adding weight and slowing them down. With the variety of training available today I'd think you should get noticeable results out of a guy that already doesn't move his size around that well to begin with. Simmonds going to Roberts training camp last summer looks to have done him wonders.
Brayden could use some more strength but Luke's already strong like an ox (as evident when he rag dolled Carcillo a few weeks ago) so I don't get his line of thinking when he does these type of workouts.

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01-29-2014, 04:42 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Brayden could use some more strength but Luke's already strong like an ox (as evident when he rag dolled Carcillo a few weeks ago) so I don't get his line of thinking when he does these type of workouts.
Probably because he loses a significant amount of muscle mass over the course of an entire season. I can't even imagine eating enough food to not lose mass while playing 20 minutes per game as an NHL D-man.

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01-29-2014, 04:47 PM
  #553
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Want Schenn to play well? Simple, just leave Gus on the ****ing line. He was good last year when he was paired with Timonen and also with Gus. The only time he's been bad this year was when he was with Mez. This isn't a coincidence.

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01-29-2014, 04:57 PM
  #554
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Want Schenn to play well? Simple, just leave Gus on the ****ing line. He was good last year when he was paired with Timonen and also with Gus. The only time he's been bad this year was when he was with Mez. This isn't a coincidence.
This. He didn't play well with Streit or Mez and it's because those guys make too many mistakes. Schenn needs a puck mover that takes care of the d-zone first ala Kimmo and Gus. Hopefully management has caught up cause a good percentage of us have been saying this since his struggles started early in the season.

I'm curious as to what Schenn's stats look like (regular and advanced) when he was paired with Streit and Mez compared to his 22 games with Gus this season as well as Gus in general, going back to last season.

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01-29-2014, 05:41 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Yea I just went through the first several pages and the Flyers fans saying bad trade double the Flyers fans saying good trade.

Which makes sense, otherwise you wouldn't have said
I was pointing out the outrage that some fans had in their posts. Some fans. Not all fans. Not the majority of fans. Most people were either in favor of the deal or ok with the deal. People that didn't like it were split between people who thought the deal was ok but a prospect or pick probably should have come our way and those who were outraged (and are outraged at every move). But ok, I guess I'll just agree with you. I was in the minority and most people said from the beginning that this team needed offense not defense etc etc.

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Also we can debate how high Schenn's potential was/is. He had no offensive pedigree, and was a below average skater and puck handler. That type of player doesn't become a top pairing defenseman. The reason we're big on Morin is because even though his offense is limited he can still skate and move the puck. Things Schenn was never known to be able to do.
But again, he was acquired to be a defensive d-man, something the team needed. Wait nevermind, you said they didn't need that so I guess I'm wrong.

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And before you say he was 22, those things just don't appear at the NHL level, they're apparent throughout a players development. Maybe those skills are raw, but they're still there. Schenn's are non existent.
Non-existent, eh? Pretty weird for a top five pick with 400+ NHL games.

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01-29-2014, 06:03 PM
  #556
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Brett Lebda has played 397 NHL games, so if 400 is the cutoff, we just need him to play 3 more somewhere and we should package off Voracek for him!

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01-29-2014, 06:24 PM
  #557
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If you think Schenn displays zero skill and zero raw tools, you haven't been watching closely. Schenn's weakness are that he is a bad skater and his hockey IQ isn't very high. Schenn is very comparable to players like Cowen & Emelin and in being hopeful I think he could easily develop into a Dan Girardi or Chris Phillips in his prime type player where he hits, blocks shots, plays big defensive minutes on a solid pairing and is very durable. Optimistic thinking, clearly. Limited offense but the he could be the workhorse a defense needs. He was so good last year, too.

Of course given the fact that he was traded for JVR, a highly skilled powerforward and likely 60 point, 30 goal scorer, he'll forever be in this fanbase's doghouse. Poor Luke.

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01-29-2014, 07:17 PM
  #558
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Even if I've soured on the trade a tad since then at the time it was made I didn't mind it much. Still don't because he's been playing for Toronto like a 60 P, 30 G guy and that is exactly what myself and most people thought he would max out as so it's not as if he's reached some new level we never thought he would.

As far as Schenn goes, last season is what high quality Schenn looks like. Minute logger, similar offensive production to Coburn, doing the whole hitting and blocking shots thing (similar to Grossmann). Poor quality Schenn is what Schenn looks like this season when paired with Meszaros. Just poop.

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01-29-2014, 07:32 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Even if I've soured on the trade a tad since then at the time it was made I didn't mind it much. Still don't because he's been playing for Toronto like a 60 P, 30 G guy and that is exactly what myself and most people thought he would max out as so it's not as if he's reached some new level we never thought he would.

As far as Schenn goes, last season is what high quality Schenn looks like. Minute logger, similar offensive production to Coburn, doing the whole hitting and blocking shots thing (similar to Grossmann). Poor quality Schenn is what Schenn looks like this season when paired with Meszaros. Just poop.
I actually think he has a pretty decent shot.

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01-29-2014, 07:45 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
I actually think he has a pretty decent shot.
A decent shot with a horrible release pretty much negates its effectiveness.

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01-29-2014, 09:45 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
A decent shot with a horrible release pretty much negates its effectiveness.
I've been pretty disappointed that mgmt hasn't put him in a position to refine it.

If he can turn that into and accurate one-timer via a set play, he could turn some heads.

I'd even put him on the left side, that way we don't get any spin-o-ramas

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Old
01-29-2014, 11:37 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
I've been pretty disappointed that mgmt hasn't put him in a position to refine it.

If he can turn that into and accurate one-timer via a set play, he could turn some heads.

I'd even put him on the left side, that way we don't get any spin-o-ramas
Why would what side he's on matter? Luke's still gonna spin.

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01-30-2014, 12:38 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Why would what side he's on matter? Luke's still gonna spin.
This made me lol. Don't knock the Schenn spin.

As for the whole shot discussion, it baffles me that there are some NHL players with such terrible shots. And this isn't necessarily directed at Schenn, but he does have a very slow release. Now, Grossmann on the other hand... How do you play hockey your whole life and still shoot like you just picked up a hockey stick yesterday?

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01-30-2014, 06:23 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
This made me lol. Don't knock the Schenn spin.

As for the whole shot discussion, it baffles me that there are some NHL players with such terrible shots. And this isn't necessarily directed at Schenn, but he does have a very slow release. Now, Grossmann on the other hand... How do you play hockey your whole life and still shoot like you just picked up a hockey stick yesterday?
The only reason I can think is he should shoot right instead of left!

I never played apart from a bit of roller hockey... but my brother does, and he naturally picks a stick up right handed... but found he could do everything just as well left handed; but had a better slapshot, so while he played right handed for the first six months he played he then switched to left, as he plays D so the shot makes him twice as dangerous.

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01-30-2014, 07:09 AM
  #565
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I was pointing out the outrage that some fans had in their posts. Some fans. Not all fans. Not the majority of fans. Most people were either in favor of the deal or ok with the deal. People that didn't like it were split between people who thought the deal was ok but a prospect or pick probably should have come our way and those who were outraged (and are outraged at every move). But ok, I guess I'll just agree with you. I was in the minority and most people said from the beginning that this team needed offense not defense etc etc.

But again, he was acquired to be a defensive d-man, something the team needed. Wait nevermind, you said they didn't need that so I guess I'm wrong.

Non-existent, eh? Pretty weird for a top five pick with 400+ NHL games.
Again, I legitimately counted, (that's how lame I am) and it was almost 2-1 saying bad trade vs good trade. There were a few meh's as well.

People were just saying we needed D in general, people that paid attention to the NJ series were saying we needed a PMD (which became readily apparent the next season) and everyone pretty much said that we needed a #1 dman. So which of PMD and/or #1 D do you think Luke Schenn is?

Also, how are him being a top 5 pick (a bad value pick) and playing 400 NHL games relevant to his puck skills and skating ability? You don't become a top pairing D man without puck skills, and it's pretty hard to be a top shutdown dman without skating ability in the current NHL. That's what I was saying about his upside. His upside was not high because he doesn't have the tools to become a top pairing defenseman. His hockey IQ and instincts would need to be incredible for him to accomplish that, which they aren't.

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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
If you think Schenn displays zero skill and zero raw tools, you haven't been watching closely. Schenn's weakness are that he is a bad skater and his hockey IQ isn't very high.
I said zero puck and skating skills. Which I think you'll agree with.

Aside from that though, 3 of the most important things a hockey player needs is some combo of IQ, skating ability, and puck skills. Schenn is limited in all 3 areas. He can still be a good player, like a Grossmann with a little more offense, or a Coburn minus the skating ability. But that isn't the player the team needed at the time, and it isn't a player you trade JVR for.


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01-30-2014, 08:53 AM
  #566
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He is still young, I think we will see schenns max
Benefit over the next two years. He will be a solid shut down guy for us and realistically that is all I'm expecting

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01-30-2014, 09:09 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Aside from that though, 3 of the most important things a hockey player needs is some combo of IQ, skating ability, and puck skills. Schenn is limited in all 3 areas. He can still be a good player, like a Grossmann with a little more offense, or a Coburn minus the skating ability. But that isn't the player the team needed at the time, and it isn't a player you trade JVR for.
Adam Foote had similar skating ability to Luke Schenn and definitely worse puck skills, but he was a dominate defenseman because of his physical play, shotblocking ability and hockey IQ. While there is a country mile between Foote and Schenn in terms of hockey IQ, a lot of that comes with age and experience.

Luke Schenn may never become a top flight defenseman because the game is wildly different today than when Foote was dominant, but he certainly can be a very, very good second pairing defenseman if he can learn to play within the confines of his abilities and maximize his dominant tools (strong like bear).

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01-30-2014, 09:43 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Adam Foote had similar skating ability to Luke Schenn and definitely worse puck skills, but he was a dominate defenseman because of his physical play, shotblocking ability and hockey IQ. While there is a country mile between Foote and Schenn in terms of hockey IQ, a lot of that comes with age and experience.

Luke Schenn may never become a top flight defenseman because the game is wildly different today than when Foote was dominant, but he certainly can be a very, very good second pairing defenseman if he can learn to play within the confines of his abilities and maximize his dominant tools (strong like bear).
Yea, the biggest difference between Foote and Schenn is their IQ and the league they play in, and both things go against Schenn. I'm not saying he's a bad player because he could be a solid 2nd pairing, 4/5, defensive Dman, but we had that already in Grossmann. He wasn't what we needed, and especially not for the price of Jvr.

If Schenn was exactly what the team needed than we wouldn't be having discussions about whether we should keep him or Grossmann.

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01-30-2014, 10:16 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Yea, the biggest difference between Foote and Schenn is their IQ and the league they play in, and both things go against Schenn. I'm not saying he's a bad player because he could be a solid 2nd pairing, 4/5, defensive Dman, but we had that already in Grossmann. He wasn't what we needed, and especially not for the price of Jvr.

If Schenn was exactly what the team needed than we wouldn't be having discussions about whether we should keep him or Grossmann.
Oh, I didn't realize were still busy complaining about the JVR trade and not discussing the actual player. We lost that trade. I was right there with you criticizing the deal in the thread when it was done, but I think sufficient time has passed to move on.

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01-30-2014, 10:32 AM
  #570
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Oh, I didn't realize were still busy complaining about the JVR trade and not discussing the actual player. We lost that trade. I was right there with you criticizing the deal in the thread when it was done, but I think sufficient time has passed to move on.
This. Schenn can be a really solid shutdown guy and they are still important in this league regardless of if we lost the trade. And btw, going forward Schenn is the one you keep not Grossmann. I can all but guarantee that within 5 years, when Schenn if Grossmann's age, he'll be the better player and significantly better.

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01-30-2014, 10:34 AM
  #571
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Oh, I didn't realize were still busy complaining about the JVR trade and not discussing the actual player. We lost that trade. I was right there with you criticizing the deal in the thread when it was done, but I think sufficient time has passed to move on.
It's ok, you came in at the tail end of the discussion. I just thought someone was trying to spin what actually took place, and then it devolved into bickering. You know, the usual lol.


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01-30-2014, 10:36 AM
  #572
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If the Flyers were struggling mightily to score goals I can see why you keep bringing up the JVR trade (considering his growth), but they score fine.

Now if you say that you didn't acquire a good enough D-man for JVR, its valid.

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01-30-2014, 10:43 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Yea, the biggest difference between Foote and Schenn is their IQ and the league they play in, and both things go against Schenn. I'm not saying he's a bad player because he could be a solid 2nd pairing, 4/5, defensive Dman, but we had that already in Grossmann. He wasn't what we needed, and especially not for the price of Jvr.

If Schenn was exactly what the team needed than we wouldn't be having discussions about whether we should keep him or Grossmann.
Blame Holmgren. That isn't Lukes fault... and clearly we would keep Luke over Grossmann.

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01-30-2014, 10:45 AM
  #574
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If the Flyers were struggling mightily to score goals I can see why you keep bringing up the JVR trade (considering his growth), but they score fine.

Now if you say that you didn't acquire a good enough D-man for JVR, its valid.
They've been below average in scoring this year and last year. They were on a horrific goal scoring pace earlier this season. We've all been clamoring for a legit goal scorer to play with Giroux since Jagr left. But that's in addition to the fact that I think they didn't get the right type of player.

I also agree that Schenn will be better than Grossmann going forward, and he would be the one I'd keep because his value is likely low right now.

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Blame Holmgren. That isn't Lukes fault... and clearly we would keep Luke over Grossmann.
Never said it was. And I agree on both other points.

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01-30-2014, 10:50 AM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
They've been below average in scoring this year and last year. They were on a horrific goal scoring pace earlier this season. We've all been clamoring for a legit goal scorer to play with Giroux since Jagr left. But that's in addition to the fact that I think they didn't get the right type of player.

I also agree that Schenn will be better than Grossmann going forward, and he would be the one I'd keep because his value is likely low right now.



Never said it was. And I agree on both other points.
They are 17th in GFA and that's with that god awful start.

They were 9th last year.

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