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Old
01-30-2004, 05:14 PM
  #26
dawgbone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
Todd was always a character player on this team, to say that he was in it just for the money is ludicrous. Noone wanted to win more than Todd did.
Really, is that why he put a call to slats for a 6 year $24mil contract, and eventually signed with Columbus for 3.2+mil/season? Funny, neither of team has won very much.

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As far as him going out and getting 60 that wasn't out of line with his production from previous seasons so it's not like he just saw the big ufa payday comin' and stepped up production.

He was previously used on the third line with Moreau and [Grier, Cleary, etc] and averaged 40 points per season in a checking role. When the Oil needed a #1 center (Comrie injury) the Oilers had him and York to carry the load so Todd got pp time and top line calibre wingers. 60 points is not surprising at all under the circumstances.
Funny... he is getting more ice time in Columbus than he ever got in Edmonton, and is on pace for 44 points. To say he didn't see the big payday coming is being a little blind. He used a combination of opportunity and desire to have a career season and get a big payday.

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IMO a guy who can get 40 points per season and be a +10 every year playing against guys making $8-10M per year is worth $2M. If the Oil offered him a 3 year deal for $2M per and he didn't take it then we'd all be thinking differently about what went down between Todd and KLo. Todd was never offered that much, or anything long term, he even said that Lowe basically wasn't returning his calls all summer and then he received a low-ball offer. Or at least he received what I and many others would deem a low-ball offer.
Maybe on a team like Columbus, not on Edmonton, plus at the time, the Oilers had Comrie and York as their top 2 centres, with Reasoner and Stoll waiting in the wings. The Oilers needed to make a financial decision with regards to Todd. In hindsight, knowing that we would lose Comrie, and that Reasoner would miss half the season, it obviously didn't work out as planned.

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I don't blame Todd 1 iota for doing what he did the way he did and I really think this was KLo's biggest mistake to date as a gm.
I don't blame either side. Because if we still had Comrie, York, Reasoner, Marchant and Stoll, then what? You can't bump Comrie or York out of the top 2, and if you wanted to make one a winger, you might have missed out on a guy like Torres (who could have been in Toronto right now). Granted, we don't have 3 of them right now and it is hurting the Oilers, but no one's chrystal ball last year could even fathom the Oilers being without Comrie and Reasoner for all, and part of this season respectively.

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Overall I think that Lowe is doing an absolutely excellent job, and given the fact that we had York and Comrie at center, yeah, 3 guys under 5'11" centering the top 3 lines might have been a bit much.
I think that, with the combination of wanting to see guys like Stoll and Torres in an Oilers uniform dictated that if Marchant was going to be an Oiler, it was up to him, but it was on Oiler terms.

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In hindsight I think we'd have been a helluva lot better off if we had Todd here all year, even at $3M per. Don't you?
Nope. Is columbus a better team with Marchant there at $3m/year?

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01-30-2004, 05:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Funny how you bring up Marchant and Moreau together... look who was willing to make a sacrifice for the team, and stay for less money.

First of all, we have no real idea what Marchant was looking for when low qualified him at 1.6mil. For all we know, Todd could have been looking for 2.2mil. This is mr. union we are talking about. He isn't an idiot, he knew that he could have asked for whatever he wanted, and if he didn't get it out of Lowe, he could have signed a crap deal and became a UFA (which he did).

Fact of the matter is Todd had a horrible season, and didn't deserve a 600k+ raise, and he knew that. He can pretend to be pissed off, but that is all crap, mr. union had no intention of signing for less than 2.2 mil, that I will guarantee.
And how do you guarantee that? "Mr Union" come on how about "Mr Edmonton" since the guy was a community leader not to mention a team leader. The point was already made by someone else that Marchant proved his worth to team over his first 9 years. Besides the point is not that Marchant is gone or that he never would have signed here. Maybe that's true although I highly doubt that. The point isn't even a Marchant/Moreau comparison (I know I started it), even though I believe Marchant brings waaayy more to a team than Moreau. THe point is this, K-Lowe made a bad mistake by qualifying Marchant under league min thus freeing up Todd two years early (remember K-lowe didn't have to sign him under). He than compounded the mistake by making a worse mistake, not trading Marchant while is value was high. It was rookie GMing as far as I am concerned and I'm sick of people spinning it every which way to make it seem like K-Lowe knew what he was doing. He didn't, it was terrible asset management and on a small market team mistakes like that will kill us.

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01-30-2004, 05:34 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
I don't want Lowe run out of town just yet, GM's should be given at least 5 years to prove they are righting the ship. But make no mistake about it, this is K-Lowes team and K-Lowes team is brutal. This is the least skilled and more importantly least enjoyable team to watch in 10 years. Terry Jones is right when he says this team has no identity. The thing that upsets me is the team has basically been awful all year and it takes until game 52 for the print media to start getting discouraged.
I really think you're forgetting some of the brutal teams the Oilers have iced in the last 10 years. Granted they're not looking great this year, but they can still salvage a respectable season (although, perhaps it might be better to really tank it for the draft pick).
For a team thats lost its #1 Defenceman (Janne) and 2/3 of it's top line (AC & Comrie...you could even argue with Smyth's play this year, they've lost their entire top line) without anyone to step in they've done well.
Granted Lowes made some mistakes (Dopita, Oates and arguably the Comrie/Marchant situation wasn't handled the best it could ahve been), but look at the talent we have ready to step in the next few years. Lowes acquired our MVP York for Poti; Cross who was out scoring AC earlier in the season (not sure about current stats) and also acquired what looks to be the heart & soul of the team in Dvo.
On top of all that we have a whole farm of prospects that look pretty good, they have either stepped up allready (Torres/Hemsky) or are about to (Rita/Salmo/Pouilet/Niinimaki) It would have been nice to sneak into the playoffs this year, simply for the electricity that it creates, but Lowe has always maintained he was setting this team up for post-cba.
Given that we still have 2-3 valuable trading chips in our posession (Smith/Smyth/Laraque) as well as several throw-ins to fill out a possible trade (Chimera/Horcoff/Pisani), perhaps it's best we look to be missing the playoffs. Lets face it, none of Smith, Smyth & Laraque look to be in th post-cba plans, the sooner the Oilers write off this season, the sooner Lowe can focus on picking up more quality picks/prospects for teams that need to win the cup this year
I strongly believe that with the impending lockout, several of the older teams will sacrifice youth to get the missing pieces of the puzzle to win now. This is Lowes time to swindle some other GM's and finish reloading the gun.

EDIT: Edited for spelling


Last edited by Marconius: 01-30-2004 at 05:44 PM.
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01-30-2004, 05:45 PM
  #29
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Here's what. It's the off-season, Marchant's contract has just expired at around 1.4 after a very poor season. The league average is floating around 1.8. Lowe has three options:

1) give Marchant no qualifying offer and let him go as a UFA.
2) Qualify him at the minimum 10% increase, knowing that will make him a UFA the following summer. (which was done)
3) Qualify him above the expected league average (as was done with Smith) to avoid Todd's UFA status.

Obviously #1 is the least tempting. As for #3, Lowe could have offered Marchant 1.9 or 2, but there's no guarantee Todd would have accepted. As soon as he signs a deal above league average, he will not reach free agency until age 31 (Aug 12 2004, which I believe means he would have been with Edmonton until next summer, the summer right before renegotiation of the CBA). There is no way Todd gives up a year of big earning potential just to sign for 1.8 or 1.9 in Edmonton. NO WAY. Make no mistake about that. So path #3 leads to the Oilers paying Todd more, let's say 2.3/2.5 on a two-year deal, and then losing him to FA anyway.

So the options boiled down to: keep him for one more year at 1.5, or keep him for two more years at well over 4.
Lowe made his decision, offered Marchant a contract that he would be willing to sign, and that the team could afford to pay out.

.

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01-30-2004, 06:02 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
And how do you guarantee that? "Mr Union" come on how about "Mr Edmonton" since the guy was a community leader not to mention a team leader. The point was already made by someone else that Marchant proved his worth to team over his first 9 years. Besides the point is not that Marchant is gone or that he never would have signed here. Maybe that's true although I highly doubt that. The point isn't even a Marchant/Moreau comparison (I know I started it), even though I believe Marchant brings waaayy more to a team than Moreau. THe point is this, K-Lowe made a bad mistake by qualifying Marchant under league min thus freeing up Todd two years early (remember K-lowe didn't have to sign him under). He than compounded the mistake by making a worse mistake, not trading Marchant while is value was high. It was rookie GMing as far as I am concerned and I'm sick of people spinning it every which way to make it seem like K-Lowe knew what he was doing. He didn't, it was terrible asset management and on a small market team mistakes like that will kill us.
We obviously aren't going to agree on whether or not Marchant would have agreed to reasonable deal to stay in Edmonton...

But as for not trading him... why would you? Honestly. You have 2 injured centres going into the playoffs, and this guy is having a career year. Yes, you may have gotten a pick for him (arguably), but you also totally eliminate your chances for having any post season success. What do you do, trade Marchant and try and pick up another player as a rental?

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01-30-2004, 06:14 PM
  #31
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I doubt Marchant would have signed in Edmonton, even if the Oilers offered him more money than in Columbus. He clearly wanted out of the city. Remember his comments after the Anson Carter trade? He, like other Oilers before and after him, was fed up with management, and tried his hand at another team.

And while Columbus stinks now, I don't know if they will be very bad for long. Marchant, for all we know, could be on a team in the birthing stages of forming a Cup Contender in 4 or 5 years.

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01-30-2004, 06:30 PM
  #32
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First of all Get Yer Aivazoff is an awesome name! Maybe the worst Oiler ever. But back to the argument at hand.

The argument keeps getting made that Marchant would never have signed a 1.8-2.2 million contract. Maybe its true but I don't believe it. First his statement about how 2 million would have made things interesting, his wife saying in an interview how much she considers Edm home and so forth lead me to believe that given a slightly better than deserved contract, Marchant would have signed. That's besides the point. Again what's important is how K-Lowe handled the situation as a whole.

Letting a player play his last year before UFA for a small market team is bad, bad strategy. The Oilers are always fighting for a playoff spot come deadline time which makes it hard for an Oiler GM to make a deal that might weaken our playoff chances but better our long term future. We lost Richardson and Joseph because Sather didn't have the courage to trade them in the middle of a playoff fight (and as I remember Washinton was offering Witt for Richardson and teams were offering huge loot for Cujo). That's why I can't criticize the Weight deal no matter how bad it seems on paper. K-Lowe could not afford to play Weight one more year and then have to trade him at the deadline. He seemed to learn this lesson this year with the Staois signing as well.
So when you list three options and say K-lowes hand was forced your not telling the whole story. Why not try and sign him after 30 games and if he doesn't sign move him right there and then. And if you argument is, because it would have hurt our playoff chances then what your saying is Todd Marchant is too valuable too trade but not valuable enough to sign long-term. The argument doesn't hold up.

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01-30-2004, 06:33 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
Why not try and sign him after 30 games and if he doesn't sign move him right there and then. And if you argument is, because it would have hurt our playoff chances then what your saying is Todd Marchant is too valuable too trade but not valuable enough to sign long-term. The argument doesn't hold up.
Well what if todd marchant at 1.6mil is too valuable to lose for a playoff run mid-season, but marchant at 2+ mil to start a new season isn't worth it. Trying to trade Marchant is iffy... first you need a team who wants him (last year of his contract heading before being a UFA), and who is willing to give you something worth more than a playoff appearance.

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01-30-2004, 06:45 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
I'm just so impressesd with Terry Jones article. Finally someone in the press putting some heat were it belongs, K-Lowes shoulders. It's the first I've heard anyone in the media decry the Marchant mess, the Oates signing, the Comrie situation.

He makes some very good points
- K-Lowe needing anger management classes is bang on
- Oates taking icetime away from more deserving players is correct
- Simpson getting his act canned his a bold call
That Terry Jones article just reinforces the fact that guy is basically clueless about the team and hockey in general.

He is nothing more than a Monday morning quarterback who can't get past 1988.

KLowe has made some mistakes, as all GM's do, but at the end of the day he is making decisions based on long term success (which takes longer to accomplish) as opposed to short term job security like so many others.

A few points;

- The reference to Sather being smart enough to bring Muckler in as an alter ego being brilliant and MacT needing something similar is just plain stupid. I think that it's safe to now say that much of Sather reputation is based on the blind luck he had here. If it was so calculated then why can't he repeat his brilliance in NY? Time to move on Terry. It's 2004 and the times... they have changed.

- Fire Craig Simpson... fine voice the opinion BUT I wish he wouldn't lose sight of the fact that the hiring of Simpson was applauded by many including Mr. Jones and although it must be a lofty perch he sits on while spewing 20/20 hindsight, it doesn't make him any less of a hypocrite.

- Oates... see above. Say what you will about Oates BUT to critisize Kevin Lowe for being pro active when faced with a problem on the team is just stupid. 99% of the people out there loved the deal when Lowe made it. The team was going good at the time and Oates was going to do nothing but positive things for the organization. Too bad only 10% of the original 99% remember that.

- Lowe needing anger management. Give me a fricken break, I would take Lowes (and MacT's for that matter) emotion any day. One problem with the new NHL is that the players today don't seem to have the fire. Just because Lowe's and MacT's competitive fires still outburn the players, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Afterall someone in this organization needs to show some emotion. What's become of the charachter in the game if coaches and GM's can't kick some garbage cans in fear of alienating some spoiled atheletes.

- Rebuilding - I must be completely out to lunch here because isn't that what has been happening for the past 3 years. Lowe inherited a mess, he has brought in his players (there are what 4? guys left from before his tenure as GM) and now the team is going through the expected growing pains. People talk about rebuilding as if the moment the players are shipped out is the same moment the team gets better. Let Lowe finish assembling the club he seems to want. He has been nothing but consitant in his time line and that isn't till after 2004.

- Mike Comrie fiasco being laid at Lowes feet. If Terry Jones knows the whole story then please have him print it. He has always run to Comrie's defense so it isn't a surprise, but until the whole story is told it's again unfair to lay it at the feet of Lowe. The one thing I do know is that Lowe didn't appear to prepare for the season as if he expected Comrie to be playing somewhere else.

- Now for the best one of all, Todd Marchant... the saviour... the guy that never scored more than 40 pts up till his last season and despite his plus 7 in his 2nd last year here, he went through such slumps and problems that most fans were willing to run him out of town. Now he is that lost valuable piece. Look, Jones feels that Lowe has failed because the team is struggling this year and Jones feels that this team is only a success based on the here and now. He seems to look back on the Todd Marchant years as if it was 1988 again but does he realize that the team wasn't winning any cups with Marchant either? The team wasn't winning any cups with the team that was on the ice two years ago. Marchant wasn't going to deliver any holy grail to the city of Edmonton and if struggling for one or two years makes them much better in 3 or 4 years then I am glad Lowe let him walk. Letting Marchant go is no different then when they let Bucky go. A good team player, did great things for the Oiler but the team wasn't winning anything and although he wasn't part of the problem, he also wasn't part of the solution. Based on that, tough decisions had to be made.

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01-30-2004, 07:39 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
That Terry Jones article just reinforces the fact that guy is basically clueless about the team and hockey in general.

He is nothing more than a Monday morning quarterback who can't get past 1988.

KLowe has made some mistakes, as all GM's do, but at the end of the day he is making decisions based on long term success (which takes longer to accomplish) as opposed to short term job security like so many others.

A few points;

- The reference to Sather being smart enough to bring Muckler in as an alter ego being brilliant and MacT needing something similar is just plain stupid. I think that it's safe to now say that much of Sather reputation is based on the blind luck he had here. If it was so calculated then why can't he repeat his brilliance in NY? Time to move on Terry. It's 2004 and the times... they have changed.

- Fire Craig Simpson... fine voice the opinion BUT I wish he wouldn't lose sight of the fact that the hiring of Simpson was applauded by many including Mr. Jones and although it must be a lofty perch he sits on while spewing 20/20 hindsight, it doesn't make him any less of a hypocrite.

- Oates... see above. Say what you will about Oates BUT to critisize Kevin Lowe for being pro active when faced with a problem on the team is just stupid. 99% of the people out there loved the deal when Lowe made it. The team was going good at the time and Oates was going to do nothing but positive things for the organization. Too bad only 10% of the original 99% remember that.

- Lowe needing anger management. Give me a fricken break, I would take Lowes (and MacT's for that matter) emotion any day. One problem with the new NHL is that the players today don't seem to have the fire. Just because Lowe's and MacT's competitive fires still outburn the players, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Afterall someone in this organization needs to show some emotion. What's become of the charachter in the game if coaches and GM's can't kick some garbage cans in fear of alienating some spoiled atheletes.

- Rebuilding - I must be completely out to lunch here because isn't that what has been happening for the past 3 years. Lowe inherited a mess, he has brought in his players (there are what 4? guys left from before his tenure as GM) and now the team is going through the expected growing pains. People talk about rebuilding as if the moment the players are shipped out is the same moment the team gets better. Let Lowe finish assembling the club he seems to want. He has been nothing but consitant in his time line and that isn't till after 2004.

- Mike Comrie fiasco being laid at Lowes feet. If Terry Jones knows the whole story then please have him print it. He has always run to Comrie's defense so it isn't a surprise, but until the whole story is told it's again unfair to lay it at the feet of Lowe. The one thing I do know is that Lowe didn't appear to prepare for the season as if he expected Comrie to be playing somewhere else.

- Now for the best one of all, Todd Marchant... the saviour... the guy that never scored more than 40 pts up till his last season and despite his plus 7 in his 2nd last year here, he went through such slumps and problems that most fans were willing to run him out of town. Now he is that lost valuable piece. Look, Jones feels that Lowe has failed because the team is struggling this year and Jones feels that this team is only a success based on the here and now. He seems to look back on the Todd Marchant years as if it was 1988 again but does he realize that the team wasn't winning any cups with Marchant either? The team wasn't winning any cups with the team that was on the ice two years ago. Marchant wasn't going to deliver any holy grail to the city of Edmonton and if struggling for one or two years makes them much better in 3 or 4 years then I am glad Lowe let him walk. Letting Marchant go is no different then when they let Bucky go. A good team player, did great things for the Oiler but the team wasn't winning anything and although he wasn't part of the problem, he also wasn't part of the solution. Based on that, tough decisions had to be made.
Rebuild What? The team he inherited went 10 games above .500 the next season so I wouldn't exactly call it a mess. A team with Weight, Guerin, Hamrlick, Poti, Smyth, Niinimaa, Salo, Smith, Horcoff, Laraque, Grier, Marchant, Moreau and Salo that was also if memory serves me correctly the third youngest team in the NHL at the time. That's alot of assets to work with its not like K-Lowe has had to work from scratch. And if we are rebuilding then why is signing 41 year old's to big chunk of change. Why is not doing everything he can to sign our 22 year-old first line center? Why did he not trade two of our core players at the draft instead of the deadline?

No I don't buy that he is rebuilding this team. K-Lowe looked at his team and decided it wasn't big enough or gritty enough for his liking. Fine he might have been right but he traded our core, upgraded our size, let a small center get away, signed gritty or big players and thought that it would change our annual 7th & 8th place finishes.But what he did instead was he SEVERELY downgraded the talent level of this organization and made us into a 11th placed team. This organization is a mess NOW! Any young depth we have is on this roster right now. Who's left in Toronto, Tony Salmo? Good player but I doubt he's the saviour. Our draft picks, nobody knows about Niniimaki he's a wildcard at best, Pouliot maybe, Mihkinov I'm not sure he really exists. The fact is our D-corp is undermanned until that point in time that Lynch and or Wowitka might make the club, we have bad depth at center, our goaltending situation has gotten worse and worse the last three years without being addressed. Where's the plan. There's no friggin plan. Do you honestly believe K-Lowe wanted to have a growing pain year.

The only reason I'm willing to stick with Kevin as GM is that we need to wait and see how his drafting record turns. A team can make up for a lot of bad personal decesions IF they draft well. Under Sather the team drafted so terrible that Glen had too steal on trades just for a chance to make the playoffs. But the way we are set up now if there are no stars among Lynch/Wowitka/Ninnimaki/Pouliot/Rita/Mikihnov we are in for a lot of 12th place finishes because a roster full of Isbisters, Dvoraks, Crosses and Staois's are not gonna cut it.

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01-30-2004, 08:12 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
Rebuild What? The team he inherited went 10 games above .500 the next season so I wouldn't exactly call it a mess. A team with Weight, Guerin, Hamrlick, Poti, Smyth, Niinimaa, Salo, Smith, Horcoff, Laraque, Grier, Marchant, Moreau and Salo that was also if memory serves me correctly the third youngest team in the NHL at the time. That's alot of assets to work with its not like K-Lowe has had to work from scratch. And if we are rebuilding then why is signing 41 year old's to big chunk of change. Why is not doing everything he can to sign our 22 year-old first line center? Why did he not trade two of our core players at the draft instead of the deadline?
Weight=$9mil/season
Guerin=$9mil/season
Hamrlik=$4mil/season
That's 2/3rds of the payroll right there. Yes it was a young and talented team, but the youth came from Cleary, Pittis, Swanson... hardly guys who will make a future impact. Yes there were a lot of assets, and look at what those assets became: Weight became Reasoner, Stoll and DesLauriers.
Guerin became Dvorak and Hemsky
Hamrlik became Brewer
Poti became York
Niinimaa and Grier became Torres and Isbister

The 41 year old signing for a big chunk of change was necessary because the 22 year old didn't want to stay in Edmonton, for whatever reason. Do you think Lowe should have offered Mike $4mil/season? That would have been a terrible management of assets.

Quote:
No I don't buy that he is rebuilding this team. K-Lowe looked at his team and decided it wasn't big enough or gritty enough for his liking. Fine he might have been right but he traded our core, upgraded our size, let a small center get away, signed gritty or big players and thought that it would change our annual 7th & 8th place finishes.But what he did instead was he SEVERELY downgraded the talent level of this organization and made us into a 11th placed team. This organization is a mess NOW! Any young depth we have is on this roster right now. Who's left in Toronto, Tony Salmo? Good player but I doubt he's the saviour. Our draft picks, nobody knows about Niniimaki he's a wildcard at best, Pouliot maybe, Mihkinov I'm not sure he really exists. The fact is our D-corp is undermanned until that point in time that Lynch and or Wowitka might make the club, we have bad depth at center, our goaltending situation has gotten worse and worse the last three years without being addressed. Where's the plan. There's no friggin plan. Do you honestly believe K-Lowe wanted to have a growing pain year.
I reall don't know what to say here... the team that finished 7th and 8th wasn't going to be around... the core players were getting older and more expensive, meaning that they had to be moved, and in return the oilers got younger players. The organization is not in a mess. Good young talent doesn't mean saviours who will make your 11th place team an 8th place team in this year when he is 22... it's someone who will make your team better when he is 26 or 27. Before, the Oilers had a bunch of kids who weren't very good, and a bunch of veterans who carried the team (Weight, Guerin, etc...). Now it's the kids who have all the talent, and it is going to take time for them to grow. Weight wasn't an instant leader, capable of carrying the team... he spent 3 years on one of the worst teams in the league. As for the draft picks... you're right, who knows... but that doesn't mean nothing will turn out. As for the goaltending... what exactly did you want to do? How could Lowe have addressed that? No I don't think Lowe wanted to have a growin pain year... if he did, guys like Smith still wouldn't be here.

Quote:
The only reason I'm willing to stick with Kevin as GM is that we need to wait and see how his drafting record turns. A team can make up for a lot of bad personal decesions IF they draft well. Under Sather the team drafted so terrible that Glen had too steal on trades just for a chance to make the playoffs. But the way we are set up now if there are no stars among Lynch/Wowitka/Ninnimaki/Pouliot/Rita/Mikihnov we are in for a lot of 12th place finishes because a roster full of Isbisters, Dvoraks, Crosses and Staois's are not gonna cut it.
Bad personel decisions? How about we wait until some of these bad personel decisions turn 27 or 28 before we call Lowe a failure. Yes, there is a lot riding on young players, but that was what Lowe said from the beginning... and he is showing faith in his scouting staff, which is what you need to do in a small market. The Oilers weren't going to get a Doug Weight Calibre player at a discounted price in a deal for Weight... so you need to rely on your scouts to give you info on guys. Is Lowe a genious for getting Dvorak? Not necessarily, as I think the pro scouts gave him a lot of information about him, but Lowe made the deal. This is a gamble, but one that needed to be made. When you can no longer afford to pay a top player on your team, what are your options?

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01-30-2004, 08:35 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HotToddy
Rebuild What? The team he inherited went 10 games above .500 the next season so I wouldn't exactly call it a mess. A team with Weight, Guerin, Hamrlick, Poti, Smyth, Niinimaa, Salo, Smith, Horcoff, Laraque, Grier, Marchant, Moreau and Salo that was also if memory serves me correctly the third youngest team in the NHL at the time.

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Originally Posted by HotToddy
No I don't buy that he is rebuilding this team.
So are you saying he isn't rebuilding or that he shouldn't have rebuilt it?
Of the players you list how many are still here?
Of the players you list how many would still be here even if Lowe decided to keep them?

How you can list off 13 players 7 of which are no longer with the club and say that you don't buy that he hasn't been rebuilding is beyond me.

How you can list 44.2 mil worth of current salary and suggest that the team should still be together is also beyond me. (especially considering that still leaves 7 more roster spots to fill)

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Originally Posted by HotToddy
That's alot of assets to work with its not like K-Lowe has had to work from scratch. And if we are rebuilding then why is signing 41 year old's to big chunk of change. Why is not doing everything he can to sign our 22 year-old first line center? Why did he not trade two of our core players at the draft instead of the deadline?
How do you know that he didn't try what ever he could to sign his angelic 22 yr old center?

When he signed the 41 yr old did you think he was doing it because he thought Oates would bring the stanley cup to Edmonton or because he needed a stop gap to fill the center spot left vacant by a guy that took his puck and ran home?

Oates was brought in to do exactly what he has done. He bought Lowe some time to address the center position. You can critisize how it worked out based on Oates' performance but as I said, the move to sign a veteran temporary centerman was applauded by almost all if not completely everyone.

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Originally Posted by HotToddy
Do you honestly believe K-Lowe wanted to have a growing pain year.
I don't think anyone WANTS a growing pain year but I do think most people EXPECT a growing pain year and only the most naive people would plan otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HotToddy
we are in for a lot of 12th place finishes because a roster full of Isbisters, Dvoraks, Crosses and Staois's are not gonna cut it.
I find these kinds of comments to be remarkable.

At the beginning of the post you list the 13 players with the highest profile as if you feel the team was a cup contender. You fail to leave off guys like Dan Cleary, Pat Falloon, Chad Kilger, Christian Laflamme, Bert Robertson, Shaun Brown, Jim Dowd and so on.

Then at the end you list a guy like Corey Cross as evidence that Lowe is doing a bad job. First off every team has players like that and second, once some guys like Woywitka and Lynch are ready I am sure Cross will be a memory. Remember that Isbister was a good gamble (like him or hate him) that came with Raffi Torres, Staio's is exactly the kind of lunch pail experience a team like this needs and Dvorak has hardly been a bust here. Point is Lowe isn't finished so to write an obituary for him because people don't have any patience is silly.

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01-30-2004, 09:15 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by copperandblue
That Terry Jones article just reinforces the fact that guy is basically clueless about the team and hockey in general.

He is nothing more than a Monday morning quarterback who can't get past 1988.

KLowe has made some mistakes, as all GM's do, but at the end of the day he is making decisions based on long term success (which takes longer to accomplish) as opposed to short term job security like so many others.

A few points;

- The reference to Sather being smart enough to bring Muckler in as an alter ego being brilliant and MacT needing something similar is just plain stupid. I think that it's safe to now say that much of Sather reputation is based on the blind luck he had here. If it was so calculated then why can't he repeat his brilliance in NY? Time to move on Terry. It's 2004 and the times... they have changed.

- Fire Craig Simpson... fine voice the opinion BUT I wish he wouldn't lose sight of the fact that the hiring of Simpson was applauded by many including Mr. Jones and although it must be a lofty perch he sits on while spewing 20/20 hindsight, it doesn't make him any less of a hypocrite.

- Oates... see above. Say what you will about Oates BUT to critisize Kevin Lowe for being pro active when faced with a problem on the team is just stupid. 99% of the people out there loved the deal when Lowe made it. The team was going good at the time and Oates was going to do nothing but positive things for the organization. Too bad only 10% of the original 99% remember that.

- Lowe needing anger management. Give me a fricken break, I would take Lowes (and MacT's for that matter) emotion any day. One problem with the new NHL is that the players today don't seem to have the fire. Just because Lowe's and MacT's competitive fires still outburn the players, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Afterall someone in this organization needs to show some emotion. What's become of the charachter in the game if coaches and GM's can't kick some garbage cans in fear of alienating some spoiled atheletes.

- Rebuilding - I must be completely out to lunch here because isn't that what has been happening for the past 3 years. Lowe inherited a mess, he has brought in his players (there are what 4? guys left from before his tenure as GM) and now the team is going through the expected growing pains. People talk about rebuilding as if the moment the players are shipped out is the same moment the team gets better. Let Lowe finish assembling the club he seems to want. He has been nothing but consitant in his time line and that isn't till after 2004.

- Mike Comrie fiasco being laid at Lowes feet. If Terry Jones knows the whole story then please have him print it. He has always run to Comrie's defense so it isn't a surprise, but until the whole story is told it's again unfair to lay it at the feet of Lowe. The one thing I do know is that Lowe didn't appear to prepare for the season as if he expected Comrie to be playing somewhere else.

- Now for the best one of all, Todd Marchant... the saviour... the guy that never scored more than 40 pts up till his last season and despite his plus 7 in his 2nd last year here, he went through such slumps and problems that most fans were willing to run him out of town. Now he is that lost valuable piece. Look, Jones feels that Lowe has failed because the team is struggling this year and Jones feels that this team is only a success based on the here and now. He seems to look back on the Todd Marchant years as if it was 1988 again but does he realize that the team wasn't winning any cups with Marchant either? The team wasn't winning any cups with the team that was on the ice two years ago. Marchant wasn't going to deliver any holy grail to the city of Edmonton and if struggling for one or two years makes them much better in 3 or 4 years then I am glad Lowe let him walk. Letting Marchant go is no different then when they let Bucky go. A good team player, did great things for the Oiler but the team wasn't winning anything and although he wasn't part of the problem, he also wasn't part of the solution. Based on that, tough decisions had to be made.
Agree with 100%. And don't tell me that Marchant's 60 pt year should be expected. Like others have said, his previous years show a consistent 40 pt guy. And I do recall the mid 90's when time and again, Marchant was given the opportunity to play the second line centre but couldn't produce. Stone Hands Marchant indeed! And in Columbus, Marchant is playing on the 2nd line (i think) and is still only on pace for a 45 pt year. He is a 40-45 pt player, strong defensive 3rd line checker, faceoff dude and PK specialist. He has the speed to play 2nd line, but not the skills. Is he worth $3 million. Nope. Is he worth 2.2 to the Oil? Maybe, but I can't see why he would forgo UFA at 31 years to sign for less. Proof is in the contract he signed with Columbus.

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01-31-2004, 03:08 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Really, is that why he put a call to slats for a 6 year $24mil contract, and eventually signed with Columbus for 3.2+mil/season? Funny, neither of team has won very much.
There's probably a big difference between what a guy will do for a team that treats him with respect and what he will do for the Oilers after receiving treatment like Todd got on his last contract signing.

When Todd became a ufa and was moving on why not go where the most money is?



Quote:
Funny... he is getting more ice time in Columbus than he ever got in Edmonton, and is on pace for 44 points. To say he didn't see the big payday coming is being a little blind. He used a combination of opportunity and desire to have a career season and get a big payday.
And he's playing with guys like Smyth and Hemsky, and on the pp? Not. There's a huge difference when you're playing for a good team and are in a scoring role.
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Maybe on a team like Columbus, not on Edmonton, plus at the time, the Oilers had Comrie and York as their top 2 centres, with Reasoner and Stoll waiting in the wings. The Oilers needed to make a financial decision with regards to Todd. In hindsight, knowing that we would lose Comrie, and that Reasoner would miss half the season, it obviously didn't work out as planned.
In edm he's worth $2M moreso than any other city.

Like I said, our checking line center here was one of our most important positions. The only people more important are our first line center, #1 d-man and goalie, after that he's probably as important as our #2 two d-man here.

The only way the Oil ever had a chance to win was when our checking center shut down the elite centers in the game.
Quote:

I don't blame either side. Because if we still had Comrie, York, Reasoner, Marchant and Stoll, then what? You can't bump Comrie or York out of the top 2, and if you wanted to make one a winger, you might have missed out on a guy like Torres (who could have been in Toronto right now). Granted, we don't have 3 of them right now and it is hurting the Oilers, but no one's chrystal ball last year could even fathom the Oilers being without Comrie and Reasoner for all, and part of this season respectively.
You missed Horcoff, York could have been back on the wing and we'd have 5 centers, one of them being a rookie. That's a healthy number.
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Nope. Is columbus a better team with Marchant there at $3m/year?
You're joking right? Don't you think Todd is just a smidgeon better than Oates is this year? Or Horcoff? Or Stoll?

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01-31-2004, 03:56 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
There's probably a big difference between what a guy will do for a team that treats him with respect and what he will do for the Oilers after receiving treatment like Todd got on his last contract signing.
What treatment? The guy got a raise after a crap season. but a small raise wasn't good enough. He was looking for a raise of over $400k (at least), and he didn't deserve it.

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When Todd became a ufa and was moving on why not go where the most money is?
Why not wait out your last year and go where the most money is? That was exactly what was going to happen anyways.

Quote:
And he's playing with guys like Smyth and Hemsky, and on the pp? Not. There's a huge difference when you're playing for a good team and are in a scoring role. In edm he's worth $2M moreso than any other city.
He's getting 20+ minutes per night, and about 4:30 of powerplay time per game. He has also spent a lot of time playing with Nash this season. And he wasn't worth $2mil in Edmonton when we were loaded at centre, and on the wings.

Quote:
Like I said, our checking line center here was one of our most important positions. The only people more important are our first line center, #1 d-man and goalie, after that he's probably as important as our #2 two d-man here.
Yes, and Marty Reasoner has been filling that role to a T. Very similar results, hald the cost.

Quote:
The only way the Oil ever had a chance to win was when our checking center shut down the elite centers in the game. You missed Horcoff, York could have been back on the wing and we'd have 5 centers, one of them being a rookie. That's a healthy number.You're joking right? Don't you think Todd is just a smidgeon better than Oates is this year? Or Horcoff? Or Stoll?
And do you know what? The Oilers weren't really winning were they? They couldn't get past the first round, so maybe it was time to change philosophies. I left Horcoff out, simply because I see Comrie, York, Reasoner and Stoll a better top 4 in the middle, with Horcoff on the wing some where. Sure you could play York on the wing, but like I said earlier, maybe that means Torres doesn't get a one way deal this past summer and is in Toronto right now.

No, I don't think Marchant at $3+ mil is a smidge better than Oates Horcoff or Stoll.

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01-31-2004, 04:35 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
What treatment? The guy got a raise after a crap season. but a small raise wasn't good enough. He was looking for a raise of over $400k (at least), and he didn't deserve it.



Why not wait out your last year and go where the most money is? That was exactly what was going to happen anyways.



He's getting 20+ minutes per night, and about 4:30 of powerplay time per game. He has also spent a lot of time playing with Nash this season. And he wasn't worth $2mil in Edmonton when we were loaded at centre, and on the wings.



Yes, and Marty Reasoner has been filling that role to a T. Very similar results, hald the cost.



And do you know what? The Oilers weren't really winning were they? They couldn't get past the first round, so maybe it was time to change philosophies. I left Horcoff out, simply because I see Comrie, York, Reasoner and Stoll a better top 4 in the middle, with Horcoff on the wing some where. Sure you could play York on the wing, but like I said earlier, maybe that means Torres doesn't get a one way deal this past summer and is in Toronto right now.

No, I don't think Marchant at $3+ mil is a smidge better than Oates Horcoff or Stoll.
There's no way that the Oil should be going with a top 4 that includes a rookie of Stoll's calibre with his level of experience.

If he was Staal then maybe, but Staal is a potential franchise player. You don't just let a Stoll type walk in as a starter. That's the position the Oil were in with their blueline for the past two seasons and although the guys we brought in were ok and played extremely well some nights, it's a losing proposition.


Reasoner has done very well for a span of apprx 80 games in his whole career thus far. Putting him in the same category as Marchant who has been a consistantly healthy, reliable starter for a decade is ridiculous.


The Oil weren't really winning in the playoffs, but was it Todd's fault? Look to our top line players who were shut down year after year for the reason we didn't have success there. When we beat Dallas it was because of Todd's 4 goals and +2 vs Modano.

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01-31-2004, 04:42 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
There's no way that the Oil should be going with a top 4 that includes a rookie of Stoll's calibre with his level of experience.

If he was Staal then maybe, but Staal is a potential franchise player. You don't just let a Stoll type walk in as a starter. That's the position the Oil were in with their blueline for the past two seasons and although the guys we brought in were ok and played extremely well some nights, it's a losing proposition.


Reasoner has done very well for a span of apprx 80 games in his whole career thus far. Putting him in the same category as Marchant who has been a consistantly healthy, reliable starter for a decade is ridiculous.


The Oil weren't really winning in the playoffs, but was it Todd's fault? Look to our top line players who were shut down year after year for the reason we didn't have success there. When we beat Dallas it was because of Todd's 4 goals and +2 vs Modano.
At some point, Stoll needs a shot, and being the 4th line centre is the perfect spot. He certainly hasn't looked out of place by any means there, and in fact has been the Oilers most consistant centre from a game to game basis.

Putting Reasoner into the same category as Marchant is not ridiculous by any means. If anything, he has proven just as valuable as Marchant ever was.

I'm not blaming Todd... my point was it was always MGM vs the top line, with the Oilers hiding thier top players from the oppositions. That isn't going to work (they didn't have much choice in the matter, it was the best option), because it keeps your top line off the ice too much, and MGM never had the offensive prowess to be a truely effective option.

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01-31-2004, 05:22 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
At some point, Stoll needs a shot, and being the 4th line centre is the perfect spot. He certainly hasn't looked out of place by any means there, and in fact has been the Oilers most consistant centre from a game to game basis.
Being the #4 isn't "a shot" it's a "walk on". You don't leave a spot open for a 2nd rounder who just did "ok" in the ahl.

Quote:
Putting Reasoner into the same category as Marchant is not ridiculous by any means. If anything, he has proven just as valuable as Marchant ever was.
You say that Rita's inconsistancy should keep him out of the nhl, but a guy who played 80 good games in his entire career is as good as a guy who played very well for ten seasons? And you're still holding Todd's [2001-2002 Oilers 82gp 12g-22a-34pt, +7] season against him as if he did it just to cramp your style?

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I'm not blaming Todd... my point was it was always MGM vs the top line, with the Oilers hiding thier top players from the oppositions. That isn't going to work (they didn't have much choice in the matter, it was the best option), because it keeps your top line off the ice too much, and MGM never had the offensive prowess to be a truely effective option.
I agree there was a time to throw caution to the breeze when The Stars were smothering us. "Let Weight loose on the buggers, we're gonna lose anyways if ya don't."

Back then we had a #1 center who at least stood a chance of going up against the big guns, now we are miles away from that and Comrie was not on the path to becoming that.

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