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Grossmann is the worst defenseman on the team

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Old
01-30-2014, 09:31 PM
  #26
Damaged Goods
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Meszaros is horrific defensively. Pairing him with Streit would be a flaming disaster on wheels crashing into a fireworks factory.

It wasn't "a few missteps" that earned him his rightful place in the pressbox. It was a series of mistakes nightly that he finally stopped (barely) outscoring.
Grossmann is an offensive and defensive disaster who doesn't come anywhere close to outscoring his mistakes (outscored 22-40 on-ice 5v5 this year). His mobility is poor, he can't handle the puck, he can't evacuate the zone, he puts no pressure on the opposition. Meszaros is a better overall player. Grossmann simply isn't held to the same standard because he's typecast in a way that lowers expectations for overall play.

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01-30-2014, 09:53 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Grossmann is an offensive and defensive disaster who doesn't come anywhere close to outscoring his mistakes (outscored 22-40 on-ice 5v5 this year). His mobility is poor, he can't handle the puck, he can't evacuate the zone, he puts no pressure on the opposition. Meszaros is a better overall player. Grossmann simply isn't held to the same standard because he's typecast in a way that lowers expectations for overall play.
Mez definitely isn't a better overall player. He's worse defensively against weaker competition, and with his hot streak at an end that would only get exposed in a worse way. Grossmann faces much harder competition than Mez. He needs to be bumped down a pairing until his gets his mojo back.

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01-30-2014, 09:58 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Mez definitely isn't a better overall player. He's worse defensively against weaker competition, and with his hot streak at an end that would only get exposed in a worse way. Grossmann faces much harder competition than Mez. He needs to be bumped down a pairing until his gets his mojo back.
This. Give Grossmann the easiest competition (what Mez gets) and watch him excel defensively. He's simply not an offensive d-man but this team doesn't have a huge problem offensively, plus that's what having him with Streit is for.

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01-30-2014, 10:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Grossmann is an offensive and defensive disaster who doesn't come anywhere close to outscoring his mistakes (outscored 22-40 on-ice 5v5 this year). His mobility is poor, he can't handle the puck, he can't evacuate the zone, he puts no pressure on the opposition. Meszaros is a better overall player. Grossmann simply isn't held to the same standard because he's typecast in a way that lowers expectations for overall play.
Mez is an abomination.

He caught lightning in a bottle with a couple nice offensive plays which apparently blinded some people

Grossman has been bad and is limited but used correctly he's a nice player

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01-30-2014, 10:59 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Mez definitely isn't a better overall player. He's worse defensively against weaker competition, and with his hot streak at an end that would only get exposed in a worse way. Grossmann faces much harder competition than Mez. He needs to be bumped down a pairing until his gets his mojo back.
He is facing 2nd pairing quality competition, which is demolishing him. There is a pretty big chasm in results between Meszaros and Grossmann this year, and then trend has only been increasing recently. I think you are attributing way too much of that to quality of competition (which is entirely negated by Grosmann's superior quality of teammates).

http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/04/05...y-fancy-stats/


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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
This. Give Grossmann the easiest competition (what Mez gets) and watch him excel defensively. He's simply not an offensive d-man but this team doesn't have a huge problem offensively, plus that's what having him with Streit is for.
Give him easier competition and he still doesn't break even with his overall level of play. Grossmann is not getting the toughest competition on the team (Coburn and Timonen do), and Meszaros is not getting the easiest (Meszaros is getting practically identical competition to Schenn, Gustafsson and Streit).

Upside for Grossmann is lower too. Defense is not most of the game or even half of the game. You've still got offense and transition to worry about, and those are both areas where you're conceding that Grossmann will give you basically nothing. He has to be exceptional in his own zone, and he hasn't been coming anywhere close to that. What he's doing creates more work for everybody, and not doing a very good job of cleaning it up. I don't think there needs to be a quota of one capable puck-handler per pairing, because it puts an undue burden on one partner. Good puck-movement is obviously about multiple players working together, and it's an important aspect that Grossmann struggles mightily to contribute to.

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01-30-2014, 11:11 PM
  #31
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I just don't know how you can expect the team's defensive play to improve by adding Mez. He's been awful, easily worse than Grossmann.

Mez had to produce at twice his normal rate in January to just barely outscore his mistakes.

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01-30-2014, 11:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Mez is an abomination.

He caught lightning in a bottle with a couple nice offensive plays which apparently blinded some people

Grossman has been bad and is limited but used correctly he's a nice player

If you were only tracking G/A and highlight plays it might look like that, but Meszaros' overall level of play actually started to rebound in a big way starting back in December.

Oct-Nov: 42.4 CF%, 0.18 PPG (11 games)
Dec-Jan: 52.4 CF%, 0.62 PPG (21 games)


That's real improvement. I wasn't expecting Mez to keep up a 50-point pace, but the production was largely the result of genuinely improved play by a skilled d-man.

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01-30-2014, 11:20 PM
  #33
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I would use Couturier as a defensemen before I put Mez and Streit together as a D-pairing.

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01-30-2014, 11:52 PM
  #34
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I don't know why this took people so long to realize. He's always been terrible. He's the embodiment of exactly what Dave Tippett says about "stay-at-home" defenseman's defensive skills being overrated because of their inability to get the puck out of their zone. He looks like "a rock" because he's constantly playing without the puck and is asked to hit and block shots more than others on the team. Great physical manifestation of why the Flyers player evaluations need to improve.

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01-30-2014, 11:55 PM
  #35
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Yeah and what Damaged Goods is saying x10. Hitting the nail on the head.

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01-30-2014, 11:56 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I just don't know how you can expect the team's defensive play to improve by adding Mez. He's been awful, easily worse than Grossmann.

Mez had to produce at twice his normal rate in January to just barely outscore his mistakes.

How exactly has Meszaros been worse? His zone exits, GF, CF, FF, and SF% are all decidedly better and trending up as he returned from several long-term injuries (and no, the marginal effects of zone starts and qualcomp do not fully account for this). I'd expect the team's differentials to get better by inserting a better player for a worse one and not getting stuck in their own end so damned much with a guy who can't outlet or handle the puck.

What exactly is Grossmann doing to earn all this faith that he's a better option? His numbers show that he's getting blasted out of the rink this year.

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01-31-2014, 12:00 AM
  #37
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Everyone should go back to tonights game and watch Grossmann and I believe Streit try to get the puck out of the zone against one forecheck (I think Cogliano). Watch how absolutely horrible they are at getting the puck up the ice. Don't put it all on Grossmann but he's certainly a cause of this team's problems and not a symptom.

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01-31-2014, 12:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
How exactly has Meszaros been worse? His zone exits, GF, CF, FF, and SF% are all decidedly better and trending up as he returned from several long-term injuries (and no, the marginal effects of zone starts and qualcomp do not fully account for this). I'd expect the team's differentials to get better by inserting a better player for a worse one and not getting stuck in their own end so damned much with a guy who can't outlet or handle the puck.

What exactly is Grossmann doing to earn all this faith that he's a better option? His numbers show that he's getting blasted out of the rink this year.
...did you actually watch Mez play? How were his zone exits improving? He was constantly a major reason the team was stuck in their own end, either with weak defensive play or with his very numerous turnovers. It's no coincidence they immediately looked better and spent less time in their own end in the last two games with Gus in over Mez. It's no coincidence Schenn doesn't look terrible either.

His offensive stats were artificially inflated by an absurd streak that, if I'm not mistaken, is the best of his career. Play him more and he'll drop back down to normal, and "normal" for him with his defensive play means he will be making more costly mistakes than his offense can counter. On top of that you can be sure he'll be dragging down his partner, too, since there isn't anybody on the team with the pure defensive skill to make up for Mez.

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01-31-2014, 12:51 AM
  #39
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I see Mez and Grossmann as opposites of each other. One is decent offensively and terrible defensively and the other is, well, the opposite. What they have in common is their ability to make terrible plays.

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01-31-2014, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
...did you actually watch Mez play? How were his zone exits improving? He was constantly a major reason the team was stuck in their own end, either with weak defensive play or with his very numerous turnovers. It's no coincidence they immediately looked better and spent less time in their own end in the last two games with Gus in over Mez. It's no coincidence Schenn doesn't look terrible either.

His offensive stats were artificially inflated by an absurd streak that, if I'm not mistaken, is the best of his career. Play him more and he'll drop back down to normal, and "normal" for him with his defensive play means he will be making more costly mistakes than his offense can counter. On top of that you can be sure he'll be dragging down his partner, too, since there isn't anybody on the team with the pure defensive skill to make up for Mez.
agreed. he's also a huge gambler. He tries to pinch with his body too much and removes himself from the play.

I'll take grossmanns safer flaws any day of the week. Appleyard said it well, a #5 asked to be a 3.

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01-31-2014, 01:02 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
I see Mez and Grossmann as opposites of each other. One is decent offensively and terrible defensively and the other is, well, the opposite. What they have in common is their ability to make terrible plays.
grossmann is at least a pretty consistent player in his own zone. I can't say that for mez.

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01-31-2014, 01:11 AM
  #42
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grossmann is at least a pretty consistent player in his own zone. I can't say that for mez.
Yeah, Grossmann is pretty sound when it comes to positioning, blocking shots, and tying up/pinning his man. Everything else, though...

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01-31-2014, 01:15 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
...did you actually watch Mez play? How were his zone exits improving? He was constantly a major reason the team was stuck in their own end, either with weak defensive play or with his very numerous turnovers. It's no coincidence they immediately looked better and spent less time in their own end in the last two games with Gus in over Mez. It's no coincidence Schenn doesn't look terrible either.

His offensive stats were artificially inflated by an absurd streak that, if I'm not mistaken, is the best of his career. Play him more and he'll drop back down to normal, and "normal" for him with his defensive play means he will be making more costly mistakes than his offense can counter. On top of that you can be sure he'll be dragging down his partner, too, since there isn't anybody on the team with the pure defensive skill to make up for Mez.

"Forget the stats, watch games (nerd)"? C'mon Beef, you're better than that. I watch nearly every game and even go to a few.

How has Mez improved over the year? Basically in every single aspect, because he looked half-crippled at the start of the year and I was sure he was toast. The first two months of the year is how Meszaros looks without offensive upside, and yeah, it's ugly.

But we're comparing Meszaros and Grossmann here, and you didn't mention or refer to Grossmann once in that post, which is conspicuous. You can focus on denigrating Meszaros all you want, but how exactly is Grossmann better overall, in spite of his markedly worse zone exits, GF, SF, FF and CF %ages?

Meszaros "barely" made up his mistakes and looking like the tin man for the 1/3rd of his season, but still, he did make up for them. That includes SF, FF, CF differentials over close to two dozen games, which seems weird to attribute to a hot streak. Meanwhile Grossmann has dug himself a hole so deep there's no chance his skill-set lets him crawl out of it, nor is there any indication that he has even stopped digging. And per the tracking stats in the OP, Grossmann is the one dragging down his partners with his inability to move or manage the puck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
agreed. he's also a huge gambler. He tries to pinch with his body too much and removes himself from the play.

I'll take grossmanns safer flaws any day of the week. Appleyard said it well, a #5 asked to be a 3.
Grossmann has "safe flaw"ed his way to a -18 at ES. How safe is it to be constantly trapped in your own zone, where only bad things can happen?

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01-31-2014, 01:33 AM
  #44
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http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/1/2...on-kris-letang

Great article. There's the Tippett quote which PropJoe alluded to that talks about his days GMing in the IHL. He analyzed his highly thought of, rock solid stay at home defenseman and realized he was defending more often because he couldn't move the puck and kept getting hemmed in. Then he analyzed his defenseman that supposedly couldn't defend at all, but since he could move the puck he didn't spend nearly as much time defending. Guess which guy he traded?

I've been ranting about Grossmann forever, and it's refreshing to hear an NHL coach with quotes like that. These stay at home defensemen hurt so much more than they help. If, you can't move the puck, you're a detriment. Maybe you wouldn't have such high blocked shot numbers if you weren't in your own end the whole time.

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01-31-2014, 01:39 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totally Radivojevic View Post
http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/1/2...on-kris-letang

Great article. There's the Tippett quote which PropJoe alluded to that talks about his days GMing in the IHL. He analyzed his highly thought of, rock solid stay at home defenseman and realized he was defending more often because he couldn't move the puck and kept getting hemmed in. Then he analyzed his defenseman that supposedly couldn't defend at all, but since he could move the puck he didn't spend nearly as much time defending. Guess which guy he traded?

I've been ranting about Grossmann forever, and it's refreshing to hear an NHL coach with quotes like that. These stay at home defensemen hurt so much more than they help. If, you can't move the puck, you're a detriment. Maybe you wouldn't have such high blocked shot numbers if you weren't in your own end the whole time.
Oh wow, that says it all. I want to wallpaper my room with this article.

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01-31-2014, 01:40 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
"Forget the stats, watch games (nerd)"? C'mon Beef, you're better than that. I watch nearly every game and even go to a few.

How has Mez improved over the year? Basically in every single aspect, because he looked half-crippled at the start of the year and I was sure he was toast. The first two months of the year is how Meszaros looks without offensive upside, and yeah, it's ugly.

But we're comparing Meszaros and Grossmann here, and you didn't mention or refer to Grossmann once in that post, which is conspicuous. You can focus on denigrating Meszaros all you want, but how exactly is Grossmann better overall, in spite of his markedly worse zone exits, GF, SF, FF and CF %ages?

Meszaros "barely" made up his mistakes and looking like the tin man for the 1/3rd of his season, but still, he did make up for them. That includes SF, FF, CF differentials over close to two dozen games, which seems weird to attribute to a hot streak. Meanwhile Grossmann has dug himself a hole so deep there's no chance his skill-set lets him crawl out of it, nor is there any indication that he has even stopped digging. And per the tracking stats in the OP, Grossmann is the one dragging down his partners with his inability to move or manage the puck.




Grossmann has "safe flaw"ed his way to a -18 at ES. How safe is it to be constantly trapped in your own zone, where only bad things can happen?
Here's the big difference between them, and my hang up. It's really much simpler than you're trying to make this.

Mez is terrible defensively against weak competition. Unless he's on a great hot streak, he is going to be a minus player. He is, after all, a DEFENSEman, so that aspect is really important to consider.

Grossmann is okay defensively, but is now over his head. If he is bumped down to an easier pairing, he can do better. He likely will do better. He's being asked to do too much right now.

The better solution: Keeping Mez and his trainwreck defense on the bench. Putting Grossman in a simpler situation for a while.

Putting Mez into the lineup, and especially with Streit, is a great way to make the defense worse. The team has enough trouble right now. The last thing they need is Mez making life harder for them.

Do you think it's a coincidence the team has immediately looked better on D with Mez removed? I don't. I'm not eager to put him back in.

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01-31-2014, 01:56 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Here's the big difference between them, and my hang up. It's really much simpler than you're trying to make this.

Mez is terrible defensively against weak competition. Unless he's on a great hot streak, he is going to be a minus player. He is, after all, a DEFENSEman, so that aspect is really important to consider.

Grossmann is okay defensively, but is now over his head. If he is bumped down to an easier pairing, he can do better. He likely will do better. He's being asked to do too much right now.

The better solution: Keeping Mez and his trainwreck defense on the bench. Putting Grossman in a simpler situation for a while.

Putting Mez into the lineup, and especially with Streit, is a great way to make the defense worse.
I don't think I'm making it complicated at all. Meszaros > Grossmann. Working with the roster you have now, your "best 6" group includes Meszaros, and not Grossmann.

Meszaros is a plus player on a decidedly minus team, a plus player for his career, a plus CF relative player, and a player who is capable of putting up points over his career. He is pacing a whopping .09 PPG over his career average this year. He's had wild swings, but on the whole, you're essentially breaking even with him. He's been average. Grossmann, on the other hand, is slowly but surely bleeding you out. Somehow this is preferable.

It's called "defenseman," therefore "defense" is a really shallow argument. A great defenseman can anchor your offensive attack when he's on the ice, a great shut-down center (hey, that doesn't spell "defense"!) can change the game. I was going to mention earlier how the name of the position actually biases expectations and leads to improperly weights the value of different skills (see previously mentioned Tippet quote for more on that). Shouldn't overall production be the most important thing, no matter how your position name is spelled?

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01-31-2014, 01:57 AM
  #48
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Oh wow, that says it all. I want to wallpaper my room with this article.
this is fine when you are talking about an actual consistent offensive point producer and not mez.

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01-31-2014, 02:02 AM
  #49
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A plus player only by virtue of an entirely unsustainable hot streak, much of which came during a weak stretch in the schedule. Once that hot streak ends (and it looked like it had by the time he was benched), you're left with a guy who's worse defensively than Grossmann, who isn't reliable at moving the puck out of his own end, who turns it over a whole lot.

Overall production is important, yes. Unfortunately, the other team has possession in our own end and produces a whole lot when Mez is on the ice. You're letting an unsustainable hot streak taint your view of Mez.

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01-31-2014, 02:05 AM
  #50
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this is fine when you are talking about an actual consistent offensive point producer and not mez.
And "safe flaws" are fine when you are not talking about a guy who is a -18 at ES through 54 games.

The article's thesis still applies even when you are talking about players of lesser caliber.

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