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Trade Rumors Thread XV: Rangers allowing a team to talk to Callahan

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Old
02-01-2014, 09:32 AM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Jackpot View Post
Totally disagree,

Since when has letting the inmates run the prison become the business model for the penal system? If I'm in the organization, it tells me management won't be taken hostage, and will look to do what's in the best interest of the team. Both in the short term and long...
poor analogy, but I see your point.

my thought on it is that slats started this fantastic, home grown youth movement, full of players who gave everything they had for the team, because they WERE the team. they played for each other, as a dedicated unit.

then the Nash trade. Prust walks. Gabby trade.

how can they expect players to go above and beyond if they've seen teammates thrown by the wayside? that's how you create the merc culture. we all saw the quotes from Staal and Hank. Cally's role is to give it all, in order to inspire his teammates to do the same.

you take that away, the guy who wears the C, and it sends the message that the players hard work is in vain.

maybe it's just me.

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02-01-2014, 09:33 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
Yeah, just like that contract to Holik wasn't funny to Holik, but at the end of they day, it was a joke contract.
And what does it matter? Unless you are going to convince all the nhl GMs that cally isn't worth 7 at 42, then someone is going to offer it and cally is going to take it

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02-01-2014, 09:35 AM
  #878
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A joke of a contract.
Even though he was responding to me, I happen to agree with you on Clarkson. I was skeptical of that deal because I thought that Clarkson was taking advantage of circumstantial success with the Devils that he wouldn't be able to replicate anywhere else. Callahan is not in that situation.

There are only two contracts that are $6-6.5m that came from a comparable set of variables to Callahans. They are Jordan Staal and Mike Cammalleri. What do you think Callahans value is in comparison to those two players?

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02-01-2014, 09:35 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
And what does it matter? Unless you are going to convince all the nhl GMs that cally isn't worth 7 at 42, then someone is going to offer it and cally is going to take it
That still doesn't negate the fact that in the majority of eyes, that is a severe overpayment. Just because the market may be dried up and there is a need for new players does not absolve it being a joke of a contract, especially if you try to bring up another joke contract in Clarkson to prove a point.

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02-01-2014, 09:35 AM
  #880
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Keep Richards past this season? No way, we need to buy him out and free up capspace.
The issue with Richards is not freeing up cap space today as much as it is avoiding the recapture penalties in the future. There would be massive dead money on the Rangers cap if he retired before the full contract term expired. Not buying him out this summer is not an option.

And as for Callahan no longer being the heart of the Rangers identity, I disagree with everyone. Listen to what the players say. and go look at the fans -- the vast majority of whom do not post here -- who revere him.

I laugh when someone says he is a shell of the player he used to be. He came back much sooner than he should have from shoulder surgery and then did the same after a knee injury. He sets a tone for the team. His production is down because he is not getting power play time but that is OK because the team not has three balanced lines. You have to go back to the 1960s (Yes, the 1960s) to find a Ranger team that had that kind of balance.

At the same time, I understand the balancing of term and risk. Callahan plays the game and hard and has high risk of breaking down sooner.

That's why I understand the rumors. And that's why I thinbk this is nothing more than a well orchestrated strategy by Sather to get his man at his price.

Not such a dumbass after all.

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02-01-2014, 09:36 AM
  #881
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Its never pretty at the End

Management and player are just doing what is good for there future. At the end of the day Cally's next contract will be a result of his past years as a Ranger. Torts appointed him Captain and his style and effort lead us out of the dark ages. With our new up tempo offense he is a marginal player not worth 42 million. We thank him for his time with the team and he should be thankful for the Rangers giving him an opportunity to land his big contract. Its very obvious that he is no longer our leader.
Give Zukes 20 million over 5 years and we are better off.

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02-01-2014, 09:38 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
That still doesn't negate the fact that in the majority of eyes, that is a severe overpayment. Just because the market may be dried up and there is a need for new players does not absolve it being a joke of a contract, especially if you try to bring up another joke contract in Clarkson to prove a point.
What does it matter if others think you are overpaid or not?

If cally has that type of value to some teams, then that is his value.

It's not like you take the average of what all the teams would be willing to give him. You take the highest offer to determine value.

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02-01-2014, 09:40 AM
  #883
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I wonder how many posters who are so up in arms about the idea of trading Callahan have been following the team since before the first lockout?

Leetch got traded, Graves got traded, Messier was allowed to walk, Patrick got traded, Ridley and Miller got traded, etc., etc.

If they make the right deal, for the first time in a long time, the organization will truly well positioned. They'll be one Brad Richards amnesty away from a roster free of bad contracts. They'll be solid in goal, on defence, on RW, will have good organizational depth and will likely have shored up other positions where they are currently a bit thin (center, LW, offensive defenseman).

The deal really needs to happen - unless he's willing to take a crazy discount (in which case we should then be looking to deal off some of our other RW assets).

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02-01-2014, 09:40 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
You still aren't making a point. What does it matter if others think you are overpaid or not?

If cally has that type of value to some teams, then that is his value.
Says the guy who thinks Sather is lowballing him. You are pretty much the first and only person to think Sather is screwing him.

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02-01-2014, 09:42 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
And round and round we go.

RB, come give us an update so we can get back to actually debating rumors rather than players' characters.
Dude all the information, is right there at your fingertips. I like how ranger boy delivers it too. but if there are updates, you can find them.

I think I actually prefer in most cases to debate a players character rather then what is normally debated as rumor. haha Like has anyone thought about how twitter and the bob mckenizes and dreegrs and what not. It made them relevant. Twitter is total vocal masterbation man. I saw on the ranger report twitter feed, McKenize tweeting about an awesome jayz concert and about the grammys. Man popular culture is such a good place to get a laugh. And then cry when you realize how hypnotized it has a lot of our country.

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02-01-2014, 09:42 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
poor analogy, but I see your point.

my thought on it is that slats started this fantastic, home grown youth movement, full of players who gave everything they had for the team, because they WERE the team. they played for each other, as a dedicated unit.

then the Nash trade. Prust walks. Gabby trade.

how can they expect players to go above and beyond if they've seen teammates thrown by the wayside? that's how you create the merc culture. we all saw the quotes from Staal and Hank. Cally's role is to give it all, in order to inspire his teammates to do the same.

you take that away, the guy who wears the C, and it sends the message that the players hard work is in vain.

maybe it's just me.
How was this team going to be able to compete by keeping that group together with the demands various players were/are making? You don't become a cup contender by signing Prust long term at 2,5 mill and Callahan long term at six.

Maybe there is a mercenary culture, but that did not start with the Nash trade. Players are always trying to maximize their contract value. I don't blame them for that, but they were never "a fantastic youth movement who gave everything for the team" who did not want to get financially compensated. And therein lies the challenge.

The Rangers already have a lot of cap tied up with a number of guys to re-sign the next couple of years. They can't just hand out a 7/42 contract to Callahan. And they can't let him go for nothing either so they have to trade him.

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Old
02-01-2014, 09:43 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
Says the guy who thinks Sather is lowballing him. You are pretty much the first and only person to think Sather is screwing him.
If there are teams out there willing to give cally 7 at 42, then the rangers are ABSOLUTELY low balling him.

Is the value he has to the rangers indicative of the value he has to everyone? Of course not.

I have no problem with the rangers sticking with their offer, and I have no problem with cally going elsewhere to a team that will give him substantially more.

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02-01-2014, 09:44 AM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
poor analogy, but I see your point.

my thought on it is that slats started this fantastic, home grown youth movement, full of players who gave everything they had for the team, because they WERE the team. they played for each other, as a dedicated unit.

then the Nash trade. Prust walks. Gabby trade.

how can they expect players to go above and beyond if they've seen teammates thrown by the wayside? that's how you create the merc culture. we all saw the quotes from Staal and Hank. Cally's role is to give it all, in order to inspire his teammates to do the same.

you take that away, the guy who wears the C, and it sends the message that the players hard work is in vain.

maybe it's just me.
Hey Callagraves, can you post those quotes by staal and hank. I heard Gross mention of what Hanks comments, but i've yet to find them

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Old
02-01-2014, 09:45 AM
  #889
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Yet unlike Jeter, Callahan hasn’t yet pushed the Rangers to the Promised Land — a championship. It isn’t the 5-foot-11 forward’s fault, per se, but his club has reached the Eastern Conference final just once in seven seasons, in 2011-12 when the Rangers were upset by the New Jersey Devils.

Jeter is an icon in New York, and trading or not re-signing him would be sacrilege in the city. Callahan used to enjoy such status, but that is waning — especially with unrestricted free agency upcoming and his contract demands hitting the tabloids this past week.

The vast majority of Rangers fans I’ve spoken with are okay with Callahan being traded before the March 5 deadline. It’s hard to disagree.
www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/callahan-trade-would-be-welcomed-change/


Sense and insensitivity. Dont let emotion dictate anything. Let reality do it.

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Old
02-01-2014, 09:49 AM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
poor analogy, but I see your point.

my thought on it is that slats started this fantastic, home grown youth movement, full of players who gave everything they had for the team, because they WERE the team. they played for each other, as a dedicated unit.

then the Nash trade. Prust walks. Gabby trade.

how can they expect players to go above and beyond if they've seen teammates thrown by the wayside? that's how you create the merc culture. we all saw the quotes from Staal and Hank. Cally's role is to give it all, in order to inspire his teammates to do the same.

you take that away, the guy who wears the C, and it sends the message that the players hard work is in vain.

maybe it's just me.
Trust me when I say, "I share the same dream". Love the heart and soul effort Cally's brought here since day 1, he along with coach Torterella changed the identity of this team. Unfortunately, from my perspective his play has declined, mostly due to the never-ending injury bug. But regardless, he's just not having the same impact on the ice under the new system as in the past, he's a blue collar grinder trying to fit into a high speed transition game. I just don't see it benefitting Cally, or the organization should he decide to stay. In this system Cally's style puts him in a third, fourth line role. Not saying that's where he belongs, just where he fits in. No way I'm paying my third / fourth players 5-7 mil... Love the culture change Cally was a part of here, but it's time to do what's in the best interest of the team going forward, it's up to him if he wants to be a part of it considering how he fits into the system..

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02-01-2014, 09:49 AM
  #891
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what a player gets and what a player is worth are generally two different things. Cally will get his 7xy easily on the open market..but he isn't worth that. same thing with clarkson and other free agents of that ilk.teams will overpay particularly if they have a need that said player fills. many of the teams only care about today nottomorrow .how many of us have lived through this exact way of thinking. its amazing how long it takes ppl to learn from their mistakes. when the cap goes up the gmsspend like a bunch of drunken sailors. you have to be smart. generally the best teams avoid free agency unless the right player can be had for a deal that they are actually worth...see hossa, or rafalski or neidermeyer.those r the guys u should open up the check book for, not Ryan Callahan. Cally is WORTH 4 mil...maybe 4.5 and at no more than5 years. anything above that is a terrible contract...u can overpay because he's your captain and intangibles, etc. but not by much.frankly 6 mil for him is a gross overpayment.the term at 5 yes is fine,but to give the guy6mil is insanity...par for the course for sat her...frankly unsurprised there's such a huge gap.by sather caving into his demands on salary Cally is already a winner big time...how many of us outside of the free spending Ola would give him that much?

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02-01-2014, 09:51 AM
  #892
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Paying for intangibles isn't always overpaying.

Id still like an answer to my question, either from ImIdaho or someone else. What is Callahan worth in comparison to J Staal and Cammalleri?

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02-01-2014, 09:51 AM
  #893
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I wonder how many posters who are so up in arms about the idea of trading Callahan have been following the team since before the first lockout?

Leetch got traded, Graves got traded, Messier was allowed to walk, Patrick got traded, Ridley and Miller got traded, etc., etc.

If they make the right deal, for the first time in a long time, the organization will truly well positioned. They'll be one Brad Richards amnesty away from a roster free of bad contracts. They'll be solid in goal, on defence, on RW, will have good organizational depth and will likely have shored up other positions where they are currently a bit thin (center, LW, offensive defenseman).

The deal really needs to happen - unless he's willing to take a crazy discount (in which case we should then be looking to deal off some of our other RW assets).
Yeah, I've seen Leetch, Graves, Amonte, Zubov get traded, and Messier walk in 1997. I was pretty pissed about some of these moves, especially Leetch who I felt should be a career Ranger, but I don't really feel the same sentiment towards Cally. I appreciate his heart and effort but one has to wonder how much longer his body will hold up. To me, it already looks like he's starting to slow down. If we can get a package for him that shores us up for the future I'll be thrilled.

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02-01-2014, 09:52 AM
  #894
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And one other thing to consider. I had lunch with one of the Coyotes owners recently and he told me that he thought the cap would be at $80MM in two years -- or in his words; $4MM per player average.

That changes a lot of conversations.

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02-01-2014, 09:55 AM
  #895
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its bittersweet.. i bet most of us on here grew up with cally growing into the player he is in the NHL.. its sad but if his heart is in NY either get a fair deal done for both sides or sorry bud but better pack your bags..

im ok with the stewart deal if thats the player they're targeting.. i hope slats can also get one of schwartzs or berglund for cally ad maybe dorsett (since carcillo is cheaper and playing well) time will tell but deff unchartered territories right now for us fans

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02-01-2014, 09:56 AM
  #896
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Look man, you have no idea what his family is saying. And just bc the head of the union wants him to take a bigger contract. What he should head to EDM bc they say so????

Nobody here should be telling callahan to stay. OR that he should or he's a mercenary. I hate unions, I hate big business, I hate the culture of it all.

Lets see what the guy decides for himself. Maybe his family wants to stay in NY. Maybe his wife with a newborn wants the grandparents nearby to help out. For you to say his family are telling him to take the bigger contract. How would you ever know that. Maybe your family's that way. But I know a lot of families that would simply say do what makes you happy.
the track record of UFA in the NHL is what im basing my assessment on. Guys follow money and security.

My point is that fans are ignorant if they think a guy chooses a place to work simply and solely because of his decision and his decision only. These guys are millionaires. Ultimately, yes its technically their decision, but the decision isnt a haphazard one.

The decision is made with the help of family, union reps, agents, accountants, other players etc.

In the Army, we call it IPB - intelligence preparation of the battlefield. You dont make critical decisions without knowing every gnats-ass detail and analyzing every piece of information.

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02-01-2014, 09:56 AM
  #897
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And one other thing to consider. I had lunch with one of the Coyotes owners recently and he told me that he thought the cap would be at $80MM in two years -- or in his words; $4MM per player average.

That changes a lot of conversations.
Isn't that a misunderstanding of the linked system the NHL uses? Wouldn't the average salary be based on midpoint?

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02-01-2014, 09:56 AM
  #898
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And one other thing to consider. I had lunch with one of the Coyotes owners recently and he told me that he thought the cap might be at $80MM in tow years -- or in his words; $4MM per player average.

That changes a lot of conversations.
You don't sign contracts based on what the cap could be in the future in an unstable financial market. You sign contracts based on the current cap situation. If the cap is 80MM in two years, the players we have to re-sign that year will be demanding more based on the cap at that time.

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02-01-2014, 09:59 AM
  #899
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I wonder how many posters who are so up in arms about the idea of trading Callahan have been following the team since before the first lockout?

Leetch got traded, Graves got traded, Messier was allowed to walk, Patrick got traded, Ridley and Miller got traded, etc., etc.

If they make the right deal, for the first time in a long time, the organization will truly well positioned. They'll be one Brad Richards amnesty away from a roster free of bad contracts. They'll be solid in goal, on defence, on RW, will have good organizational depth and will likely have shored up other positions where they are currently a bit thin (center, LW, offensive defenseman).

The deal really needs to happen - unless he's willing to take a crazy discount (in which case we should then be looking to deal off some of our other RW assets).
The Ridley-miller trade is the only one i never let go of, simply because of its sheer stupidity. The Leetch, Graves and Messier decisions were completely responsible. I celebrated Patrick-Larmer like V-E day.

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02-01-2014, 10:00 AM
  #900
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Originally Posted by JPP4121 View Post
Hey Callagraves, can you post those quotes by staal and hank. I heard Gross mention of what Hanks comments, but i've yet to find them
Staal- "Any time your captain's name is thrown around in that type of situation, thats obviously a bit different than someone else... he's been such an important key, important cog, since I've been here"

Hank: "He's been the same way for years, and everyone knows what to expect from him both on and off the ice... It's huge for the group"

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