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Old
01-30-2014, 12:00 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
They are 17th in GFA and that's with that god awful start.

They were 9th last year.
Yea that's my fault, I hit GA/G by mistake. Even so I still think we have a hole in our top line, and I know others do as well.

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01-30-2014, 12:13 PM
  #577
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We do, but it's not nearly as big as the holes on our defense.

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01-30-2014, 12:25 PM
  #578
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We do, but it's not nearly as big as the holes on our defense.
I know, and that's a big part of the point I was making earlier.

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01-30-2014, 12:46 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Again, I legitimately counted, (that's how lame I am) and it was almost 2-1 saying bad trade vs good trade. There were a few meh's as well.
You must counting everything not in love with the deal as being against the trade because I only see a handful saying it was bad. Some folks, myself included, said they wanted to see more coming back, and I think that is a fair criticism of the trade. I assumed we would get a 2nd-3rd rounder or maybe a Nick Cousins kind of project prospect in the deal. But still not a bad trade the way it went down.

But w/e, I guess you're right. Everyone knew this was a disaster.

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People were just saying we needed D in general, people that paid attention to the NJ series were saying we needed a PMD (which became readily apparent the next season) and everyone pretty much said that we needed a #1 dman. So which of PMD and/or #1 D do you think Luke Schenn is?
I think he is neither. But that wasn't the case at the time. At the time he was still a 22 year old defender with a ceiling of being a top pairing guy. Not a #1, I'll give you that, but as you have pointed out, he doesn't have the PMD skillset and no one thought he did. I don't think anyone thought he would be a #1 defender, but a top pairing guy was not out of the question. And if you are going to tell me that based on his first four years or whatever he had at that point that he would not improve past where he was, then I'll just go ahead and say the same thing about JvR because he had struggled. Then you can say, "nuh-uh, he's a top liner and was back then!" Then I'll point out that he has similar stats to Brayden Schenn and he is younger than JvR. Then you can say "Whatver JvR can dominate and Brayden Schenn can't and that is why we shouldn't have traded for Luke Schenn" or something like ignoring the fact that the team was flush with forward talent, making JvR expendable.

The bottom line is, whether you think Schenn had potential or not, the Flyers were in desparate need for young, high-celiing defenders and they had a ton of young, high-ceiling forwards. Trading a forward for a defender was inevitable. It was JvR, Schenn, Voracek, or Couturier that was going out, and coming back was either going to be a struggling young player with a high ceiling, or an old vet. That's pretty much it. Or we sit with all of them and overpay for someone in free agency, then you can complain about that. Homer made a move to improve an area that was a serious weakness and he dealt from an area of great strength. You can pretend all day long that wasn't the case, but it speaks for itself.

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Also, how are him being a top 5 pick (a bad value pick) and playing 400 NHL games relevant to his puck skills and skating ability? You don't become a top pairing D man without puck skills, and it's pretty hard to be a top shutdown dman without skating ability in the current NHL. That's what I was saying about his upside. His upside was not high because he doesn't have the tools to become a top pairing defenseman. His hockey IQ and instincts would need to be incredible for him to accomplish that, which they aren't.
I misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you meant his skill in general was non-existent.[/QUOTE]

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01-30-2014, 03:40 PM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It was JvR, Schenn, Voracek, or Couturier that was going out, and coming back was either going to be a struggling young player with a high ceiling, or an old vet. That's pretty much it.
that's not necessarily true
I recall a chief complaint re: the trade is that we should have gotten LS+something for JVR, or that there should have been a JVR+package for a more established defender.

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01-30-2014, 04:16 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
that's not necessarily true
I recall a chief complaint re: the trade is that we should have gotten LS+something for JVR, or that there should have been a JVR+package for a more established defender.
For sure that was a criticism of the trade. I'm pretty sure I said the same thing. I though (and would have liked to see) a 2nd or 3rd rounder or an equivalent prospect come back. But the fact that the Flyers didn't get that other piece doesn't make the deal a bad one. I mean, if you are upset that you didn't get that other piece ok, but that doesn't change the fact that the Flyers made a hockey move in this trade. They upgraded a position of weakness (defense, especially young, high ceiling defenders) by trading from a position of strength (young offense).

The move made sense at the time. Like I said, someone was getting traded for defense. The choices were Schenn, JvR, Voracek, or Couturier. I think most of us would agree that JvR (or maybe Voracek) is the one we would have traded. The question of who was available at the time appears to be between Schenn and Yandle, the pricetag for Yandle apparently being more than just JvR. So your other options are a beat up old veteran. I suppose we could have done nothing and sat on our hands but that leaves you with the same problem: plenty of offense, no defense. I suppose the money that has been going to Schenn could be going to another defender, but that would likely mean another forward is not here, my guess would be Vinny. Not sure who that other defender would be, but outside of a different trade, it likely would have been someone older than Schenn for more money (two things that every poster on here *****es and moans about every single second of every day). So then you'd be complaining that Homer never makes moves to get young defenders. Six of one, half dozen of the other, I suppose.

And lets not forget that while JvR showed promise, he wasn't exactly a burgeoning superstar (and still isn't, despite the way people act around here).

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01-30-2014, 05:43 PM
  #582
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Wall after wall of text crits Luke Schenn for 68,756,322 damage. Thread unable to be revived.

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Old
01-30-2014, 05:44 PM
  #583
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So Schenn has looked good with Gus. I think if both stay around for the future, keep these two players together, at all times.

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02-01-2014, 03:19 AM
  #584
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Let's take a look at our gem defensive defenseman

5 on 5 goals against per 20 minutes amongst defensemen, entire NHL (300 minutes played):

2013-2014: 188th out of 206
2012-2013: 163rd out of 204
2011-2012: 222nd out of 229
2010-2011: 163rd out of 224
2009-2010: 182nd out of 219
2008-2009: 207th out of 225

Great trade.

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02-01-2014, 03:28 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Wall after wall of text crits Luke Schenn for 68,756,322 damage. Thread unable to be revived.



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Old
02-01-2014, 08:44 AM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totally Radivojevic View Post
Let's take a look at our gem defensive defenseman

5 on 5 goals against per 20 minutes amongst defensemen, entire NHL (300 minutes played):

2013-2014: 188th out of 206
2012-2013: 163rd out of 204
2011-2012: 222nd out of 229
2010-2011: 163rd out of 224
2009-2010: 182nd out of 219
2008-2009: 207th out of 225

Great trade.
Totally worth a 30 goal scoring winger who would complement G...ugh!

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Old
02-01-2014, 02:06 PM
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Totally worth a 30 goal scoring winger who would complement G...ugh!
Since when is a career high of 22 goals (this season) a 30 goal scorer?

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Old
02-01-2014, 02:18 PM
  #588
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Well Carter scored 40 1x in his career and was constantly referred to as a 40 goal scorer. Jvr will score 30..so why not

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02-01-2014, 02:21 PM
  #589
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He has to get to 30 first to be called that. And who knows, he may get injured this season and not hit 30.

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02-01-2014, 02:32 PM
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Well Carter scored 40 1x in his career and was constantly referred to as a 40 goal scorer. Jvr will score 30..so why not
That's different. Carter scored 40. JvR has not scored 30. He's on pace to do so for the first time in his career, and if he does you can refer to him as a 30 goal guy. But until then that would be like me saying Brayden Schenn is a 25 goal, 50 point scorer. He hasn't done it yet, but he will!

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02-01-2014, 03:02 PM
  #591
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Meh. It didn't take long before I started calling Carter a 35 goal scorer, because that's more accurate. It bothers me when people take one isolated achievement and act like its the norm.

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02-01-2014, 03:49 PM
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totally Radivojevic View Post
Let's take a look at our gem defensive defenseman

5 on 5 goals against per 20 minutes amongst defensemen, entire NHL (300 minutes played):

2013-2014: 188th out of 206
2012-2013: 163rd out of 204
2011-2012: 222nd out of 229
2010-2011: 163rd out of 224
2009-2010: 182nd out of 219
2008-2009: 207th out of 225

Great trade.
and makes a **** ton for a 3rd pairing d-man...

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02-01-2014, 04:08 PM
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Since when is a career high of 22 goals (this season) a 30 goal scorer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
He has to get to 30 first to be called that. And who knows, he may get injured this season and not hit 30.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's different. Carter scored 40. JvR has not scored 30. He's on pace to do so for the first time in his career, and if he does you can refer to him as a 30 goal guy. But until then that would be like me saying Brayden Schenn is a 25 goal, 50 point scorer. He hasn't done it yet, but he will!
C'mon guys lets think outside the box a bit.

He was on a 30 goal pace in a lockout shortened season.

He's on a 35 goal pace through 54 games this year.

102 games since he was traded. 40 goals. 32 goals/82 games.

He's a 30 goal scorer whether you want too admit it or not. His point production has increased every year he has been in the league. He still hasn't reached his peak yet. Give it up. We got hosed.

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02-01-2014, 04:13 PM
  #594
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"Is" means fact. "Going to be" is the correct phrase.

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02-01-2014, 04:14 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
C'mon guys lets think outside the box a bit.

He was on a 30 goal pace in a lockout shortened season.

He's on a 35 goal pace through 54 games this year.

102 games since he was traded. 40 goals. 32 goals/82 games.

He's a 30 goal scorer whether you want too admit it or not. His point production has increased every year he has been in the league. He still hasn't reached his peak yet. Give it up. We got hosed.
Eh its like saying Voracek is a 80 point forward. He isnt though because he didnt hit it. Who knows, maybe jvr goes on a cold streak and doesnt get close to 30. Pacing means nothing since players go on hot and cold streaks

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02-01-2014, 04:30 PM
  #596
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Eh its like saying Voracek is a 80 point forward. He isnt though because he didnt hit it. Who knows, maybe jvr goes on a cold streak and doesnt get close to 30. Pacing means nothing since players go on hot and cold streaks
No it's not. Voracek hasn't kept the pace over the last 100 games. JVR has. Voracek has played at a 66 P/82 pace.

Pacing over a small sample size means nothing. Pacing over 100 games is not a fluke.

Think about it. You're saying he's not a 30 goal scorer because he hasn't put up that magical 30 number in an 82 game season. But in fact he's done it over an even larger sample.

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02-01-2014, 04:56 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
No it's not. Voracek hasn't kept the pace over the last 100 games. JVR has. Voracek has played at a 66 P/82 pace.

Pacing over a small sample size means nothing. Pacing over 100 games is not a fluke.

Think about it. You're saying he's not a 30 goal scorer because he hasn't put up that magical 30 number in an 82 game season. But in fact he's done it over an even larger sample.
Eh I disagree. I am one of those who believe you need to hit 30 goals (or whatever goal) to be considered in that tier of scoring. I dont consider pacing to be a good form. In the NHL players are hot and cold from game to game and from season to season. Reason why guys like Cheechoo can hit 50 goals in one season and still not be considered a 50 goal scorer.

I do think we lost the trade, but the JVR love on here has been going on since the kid got drafted. I like the kid, but he isnt this top 6 phenom people were making him out to be. He is a good top 6-9 forward.

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02-01-2014, 05:10 PM
  #598
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God damn it. This thread makes me so mad.

You know why? It's not because our GM sometimes loses trades. Every GM loses trades. It's because I, and others, can consistently point out, on the day the ****ing trade happens, that is is going to be a trade we lost and lost big. If it's that obvious to most of us, why the **** isn't it obvious to our front office.

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02-01-2014, 05:40 PM
  #599
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Eh I disagree. I am one of those who believe you need to hit 30 goals (or whatever goal) to be considered in that tier of scoring. I dont consider pacing to be a good form. In the NHL players are hot and cold from game to game and from season to season. Reason why guys like Cheechoo can hit 50 goals in one season and still not be considered a 50 goal scorer.

I do think we lost the trade, but the JVR love on here has been going on since the kid got drafted. I like the kid, but he isnt this top 6 phenom people were making him out to be. He is a good top 6-9 forward.

It's an arbitrary endpoint. He's scoring at a 30+ pace for over 100 games. He has 30 goals in a calendar year. Those intervals are just as legitimate. Too bad there was a lockout last year and this season still has a third left.

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02-01-2014, 06:02 PM
  #600
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It's an arbitrary endpoint. He's scoring at a 30+ pace for over 100 games. He has 30 goals in a calendar year. Those intervals are just as legitimate. Too bad there was a lockout last year and this season still has a third left.
He doesn't get it.

He's basically saying he needs to go on hockeydb and see 30 in a particular season to consider him a 30 goal scorer.

Forgetting the fact he's scored 40 in 100 games since he left town. 100 games is more than enough to even out any hot and cold streaks.

Look, I was as frustrated with JVR as anyone when he was here. I wasn't completely against trading him, but the day that trade went down I knew the Flyers didn't get nearly enough back and as every game passes, it gets more and more obvious.

Despite everything that has happened, JVR's point production has increased every year he's been in the league and excluding his final year here, he has increased his goal production each year as well. That's a trend and history says he's still on his way up.

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