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Guy Carbonneau = Part of the Problem! Game 2

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Old
02-04-2007, 01:49 PM
  #26
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Agreed, our offensive system is horrible, and our defence are playing like complate crap, Carbo needs to do way more and stop blaming the players for everything.

They obviously need to practice passing, transition game, and defending the forecheck, we're absolutely terrible at all 3 lately.

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02-04-2007, 01:51 PM
  #27
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I have no patience for inane topics like this. There's only so much coaching a guy can do before the players on the ice have to actually put up results. Where are Koivu, Higgins, Ryder and Kovalev? How is Carbo's coaching preventing them from scoring goals, or even putting in noticeable efforts?

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02-04-2007, 01:52 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Look at today's lines and you can clearly sense Carbo has already lost the team.
he could have at least kept the 3rd line together. motivating the team with negative comments clearly doesn't work.

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02-04-2007, 01:55 PM
  #29
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AH, Carbo was Gainey's maaaaan. They had a real coach before and they let him go. Montreal fan wanted a cheerleader, someone with no experience at ANY level of hockey as a head coach. Not even a pee-wee C team.

You get what you asked for.

Julien needed to be canned. He wasn't fit to coach this team. However, I was never happy with the Carbo hire either.

It was like firing Dumb and replacing him with Dumber.

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02-04-2007, 01:57 PM
  #30
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His systems worked well when our team was outskating the opposition...our laziness now rests solely on the players

Where Carbonneau is at fault is for his decision to not only allow Rivet on the ice...but to give him major minutes in all situations.

Oh and running the PP THROUGH ryder...has to be the most unecessary PP alteration ive ever seen...Kovalev, Markov, Souray are the only people that should be on the perimeter, get your ass to the front of the net or the hashmarks Ryder!

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02-04-2007, 01:57 PM
  #31
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Julien needed to be canned. He wasn't fit to coach this team. However, I was never happy with the Carbo hire either.

It was like firing Dumb and replacing him with Dumber.
Well, Dumb is having a ball, being a serious candidate for coach of the year, while Dumber is turning into Tony Granato.

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02-04-2007, 01:58 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I have no patience for inane topics like this. There's only so much coaching a guy can do before the players on the ice have to actually put up results. Where are Koivu, Higgins, Ryder and Kovalev? How is Carbo's coaching preventing them from scoring goals, or even putting in noticeable efforts?
Wel I guess that being the case, thanks for stopping by and for you off-topic comment.

Bench Management and Coaching are two seperate parts of being a coach. You coach in practices and manage your bench during a game.

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02-04-2007, 02:00 PM
  #33
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Please remember we are talking about shift lenghts here, lets get back on topic.

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02-04-2007, 02:09 PM
  #34
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Carbo has a lot to learn. His body language is horrible, he looks disgusted at every penalty call, it is a defeatist attitude. Poor us... picked on again. Then he expects the players to go out and play through the negative atmosphere he has created.

And the backlash from the officials has been obvious.

It also seems like he wants to punish rather than coach. Bench Perezhogin, bench Samsonov, bench Ryder, bench Niinimaa. When the guys come back they do the same things as before. It seems like there is no personal instruction happening

He is a coach... he is there to teach not to dispense punishment.

His approach to motivation is suspect. These guys come out and play at a high level but they need a coach to help get the last 3 or 4% out of them. It isn't working. In fact, he seems to be subtracting 3 or 4%.

Some good defensive play earlier in the year masked the shortcomings of the team, both on the ice and behind the bench. No sense of urgency to improve the situation created a false sense of security.

It's time to stop playing the blame game and begin coaching. If a player really is that bad, get rid of him. Cut your losses and move on. We have depth in the minors. Have some courage and use these guys... but teach them at the same time.

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02-04-2007, 02:11 PM
  #35
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Well, Dumb is having a ball, being a serious candidate for coach of the year, while Dumber is turning into Tony Granato.
Dumb inherited a team that was coached by a career GM to a 100 point season and a berth in the second round. That team came from waaaaayyy behind to win the Atlantic Division title. It's not like Dumb has to do much to get that team to play. A trained monkey could coach that team to what it's doing. Dumb is just a place holder until Lou decides John Maclean is ready to be his coach.

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02-04-2007, 02:20 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I have no patience for inane topics like this. There's only so much coaching a guy can do before the players on the ice have to actually put up results. Where are Koivu, Higgins, Ryder and Kovalev? How is Carbo's coaching preventing them from scoring goals, or even putting in noticeable efforts?
I'm a Carbo fan. He's like Koivu to me, almost untouchable. Almost God. But... well, "almost"! While I'm happy that he was hired, happy that he's behind the bench, I do think some of the criticisms in this thread have merit. Not all, but definitely some.

There is sometimes a lack of accountability on the part of the players. Long shifts are a symptom of that. However, I'd also point out that, beyond Carbonneau, the Habs as an organisation made a conscious choice to allow the team to exist with a lack of accountability at the core by signing Kovalev to a longterm deal. I'm not necessarily faulting that either. I'm satisfied with the tradeoff we get in Kovalev. But rules don't apply to him, and I still think it has to be hard to enforce rules on everybody else when one player has a free pass.

I think we're seeing again today that Carbo's approach to the officiating is not working. Time to practise the robot faces in front of the mirror. Souray seems to have it down pat, maybe he can give Carbo some pointers. Habs should say nothing whatsoever about officiating again down the stretch IMHO.

Samsonov played great with Bonk and Johnson. It's really too bad we didn't see that combination months ago... but to me that's really the only glaring example of a mistake on Carbo's part wrt the lineups or d-pairings. Just like everybody else, I always have a few nitpicky things I'd try differently, but I don't think there is any way to say one way or the other if they'd have worked as well, or worse. The Samsonov mistake just stands out as one that lasted soooo long, and was so clearly fixed the moment it was finally corrected. Today's dog's-breakfast lines may lead to head-scratching, but it was clear enough something had to be tried to get the top (or top-2 even) lines going. I can't say I would have suggested these lines, but I can't say they won't work out better either.

Entitlement and accountability sometimes go hand in hand. Seeing the same Ryders and Koivus on the top PP unit during a stretch when Bonk and Johnson are red hot gets a bit frustrating. Those guys are practically crying out for the chance. Sometimes I think Carbo gives too much credit to the idea that players can just play themselves out of their slumps. I'm sure they can. But it might sometimes be better for the success of the team to go with the hot hands more often. Giving Ryder or Kovalev "learning experiences" on the PK is a nice idea. Letting some of the kids play in the last minute protecting a lead is cute. Longterm it might pay off. I don't know. Sometimes, though, I think we might save a bit of extra excitement just by using the best players at the best times. Goes for shootouts too... putting a guy out to try to break out of his slump in the shootout (Higgins?) is a cute idea too. (Or score into the empty net). But I'd rather win and have another point in the standings.

I can't say the way Carbo is doing things is *wrong*, exactly, because I have no idea if the alternatives would have worked any better. But, despite being a Carbo worshipper in general, I do find myself occasionally questioning his choices. Oh wait... I guess I've done that for the last 30 years, for every coach we've had. Scott Bowman and Pat Burns were pretty good ones in that group. Damned if I didn't question some of the things they did too, eh?

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02-04-2007, 02:39 PM
  #37
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The problem with Guy Carbonneau is that instead of reworking his lineup into four well balanced offensively gifted lines, he's created a team with zero creativity, a serious lack of chemistry, and almost no will to play with any sort of offensive flair whatsoever.

Instead of having the four solid lines we're capable of, we now have four mediocre checking lines scattered with AHLers, one year wonders, and good potential players who are being squashed.

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02-04-2007, 02:47 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I can't say the way Carbo is doing things is *wrong*, exactly, because I have no idea if the alternatives would have worked any better. But, despite being a Carbo worshipper in general, I do find myself occasionally questioning his choices. Oh wait... I guess I've done that for the last 30 years, for every coach we've had. Scott Bowman and Pat Burns were pretty good ones in that group. Damned if I didn't question some of the things they did too, eh?
There are no alternatives. I think Carbo is like the players,... he needs to improve certain aspects of his game. Hopefully he can do that and hopefully the players can as well.

Everyone seems to be pulling the team in different directions since the Christmas break. It's time the coaches, players and management all got on the same page.

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02-04-2007, 02:51 PM
  #39
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carbo stated early on that players would have to sacrafice offence stats to be successful in his system.BOY WAS HE EVER RIGHT!!!!!!!!

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02-04-2007, 03:48 PM
  #40
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Okay, so Montreal with 8 players at 45 seconds or less and NO players with over a minute average of ice time.

Pittsburgh with 6 players at 45 seconds or less and 5 player with over a minute of average ice time.

Bench Management.

Even coaches need to have good games and be consistent for teams to succeed.

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02-04-2007, 04:07 PM
  #41
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There are no alternatives. I think Carbo is like the players,... he needs to improve certain aspects of his game. Hopefully he can do that and hopefully the players can as well.
Totally agreed. And further to that, maybe I take a softer view on Carbo too just based on my overall expectations for this team. It's a young team. There were question marks heading into the season. I figured we'd be in the pack fighting tooth and nail to make the playoffs, maybe with 50/50 odds of failing. So he's still got us clicking above my expectations, even with the recent slump. Plus, PK and PP... well... every team in the NHL can put out a powerplay unit and has some defensive players. We're excelling on special teams, and I like to think that coaching has something to do with it. So it cuts both ways. Lots of ways. I'm satisfied at a "B+" level with Carbo so far. I'm looking forward to seeing how he's doing as a coach in Year 4 of his tenure with us.
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Everyone seems to be pulling the team in different directions since the Christmas break. It's time the coaches, players and management all got on the same page.
I think it's harder than ever in the NHL to get everybody on the same page. We've got a lot of young players. A lot of guys heading into free agency. A lot of guys who just received fairly generous contracts. The GM just got through smashing up a clique and moving out some players for chemistry reasons. It takes time for everything to come together, and for sure in Montreal there's always somebody outside the team trying to stir things up. Carbo has a tough job getting guys on the same page I imagine, and I don't envy that task. Now, you can try doing it immediately with an iron fist, as some coaches have in the past, but I don't really see that working out much anymore. Players are so empowered these days. If it took Carbo and his staff a year or more to insinuate the requisite principles across the board, I wouldn't have been surprised. Habs win in OT, cup = half full.

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02-04-2007, 10:44 PM
  #42
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I think Carbo has been doing a great job. The line combinations are just a reflection of what type of ice time each player has meritted. Please don't tell me that Ryder doesn't deserve some time on that 4th line. Or that Mark Streit has been our second best forward the past couple games (after Plekanec). I think he's trying to send a message to a couple of the veterans. Carbo will go with those playing the best and thats all there is to it.

I do however think he should play Huet more. As each day passes I'm more and more convinced were not moving Aebischer at the trade deadline and will lose him for nothing Via UFA. He's a safety net the team is not willing to part with (not that I think it would be a bad thing to keep him). Just that losing him for nothing would kinda suck.

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02-04-2007, 10:59 PM
  #43
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Hm. I find it difficult to really criticize some of his decisions (Lines, strategy) because he's much more of an expert than I am and has tons of experts at his disposal. While it seemed obvious to us that koivu-higgins-ryder wasn't working 3 games ago, he must have had a reason to keep them together for so long.

I do have a problem with his consistent negativity, though. It seems he's never happy with an outcome. He needs to do two things:
1) After a win, do an interview/press conference talking about only POSITIVE things. "This player played great, this aspect of our game was great, I was really happy with this this and this and this is what we're going to keep building on". Negativity can only motivate so far: he needs to stand up for what his players are doing right and try some positive reinforcement.
2) After a loss, instead of blaming your players for everything, deflect some blame onto himself, even if he didn't deserve it. Just stand by your players and take some of the heat: especially in montreal I'm sure guys will appreciate their coach standing up for them after a bad game.

Right now I feel like players are sitting in the dressing room like lambs to the slaughter and looking at each other wondering who is the next one Carbonneau is going to throw into the meat grinder that is the Montreal Media. So far this as a motivational tool hasn't worked; it's time for him to try something new.

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02-04-2007, 11:57 PM
  #44
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If Guy Carbonneau wants to turn things around with his team he needs to start with himself. You cannot keep piling all the blame on your players when you are equally as culpable and not doing everything you can to help your team win.

As I’ll undoubtedly get flamed, I’ll keep to one issue so everyone try to stay on point.

BENCH MANAGEMENT

In order to have your team play its best you have to ensure that the shifts are kept short and that your players finish a 60 minute game without there “tanks being drained”.

Successful coaches keep their players average ice time to 45 seconds or less.

Shifts that are longer contribute to the build up of lactic acid in the muscles that the body cannot re-absorb quick enough. This leads to a dramatic drop in performance and translate to weak passes, bad or slow decisions, losing one-on-one battles and the taking of penalties.

In the recent loss to the Islanders, http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/ES020784.HTM out of 18 players only one had a shift average of 45 seconds or less and that was Maxim Lapierre at 45 seconds exactly. Of all the rest 3 players had shifts that averaged over 1 minute, all 3 play on the top 2 lines, have been unproductive in the goal scoring department lately and are some of the worst +/- players on the team.

You can look up the stats for all of the losses this year and a disturbing pattern of excessive shift times accompany almost all of the losses.

This is the coaches’ responsibility to control, and as Guy Carbonneau said he and Kirk Muller cannot get on the ice and help the team but they need to start doing their job if they expect to put their players in a position to succeed.



Ahhhhhh…………………. I feel better now.

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02-05-2007, 12:04 AM
  #45
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I liked Carbonneau as a player but as a coach I think he may be another Mario Tremblay. I"m not so sure the players really like playing for him. I think he benches too many players and juggles his lines too much. The players are never going to get use to playing with each other. Really I think that alot of the problem is Carbonneau.

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02-05-2007, 11:16 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Somethings Habining View Post
If Guy Carbonneau wants to turn things around with his team he needs to start with himself. You cannot keep piling all the blame on your players when you are equally as culpable and not doing everything you can to help your team win.

As I’ll undoubtedly get flamed, I’ll keep to one issue so everyone try to stay on point.

BENCH MANAGEMENT

In order to have your team play its best you have to ensure that the shifts are kept short and that your players finish a 60 minute game without there “tanks being drained”.

Successful coaches keep their players average ice time to 45 seconds or less.

Shifts that are longer contribute to the build up of lactic acid in the muscles that the body cannot re-absorb quick enough. This leads to a dramatic drop in performance and translate to weak passes, bad or slow decisions, losing one-on-one battles and the taking of penalties.

In the recent loss to the Islanders, http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/ES020784.HTM out of 18 players only one had a shift average of 45 seconds or less and that was Maxim Lapierre at 45 seconds exactly. Of all the rest 3 players had shifts that averaged over 1 minute, all 3 play on the top 2 lines, have been unproductive in the goal scoring department lately and are some of the worst +/- players on the team.

You can look up the stats for all of the losses this year and a disturbing pattern of excessive shift times accompany almost all of the losses.

This is the coaches’ responsibility to control, and as Guy Carbonneau said he and Kirk Muller cannot get on the ice and help the team but they need to start doing their job if they expect to put their players in a position to succeed.



Ahhhhhh…………………. I feel better now.

Personally, I would rather blame Gainey for the Habs struggles. It's not Carbo's fault that the players he has to deal with don't want to go out and give a winning effort every night. A lot of the players just go out and go through the motions. They don't skate as hard as they can, they don't finish their checks, they don't forecheck or backcheck like they should. So if none of the players are willing to put forth a little effort, how can we blame Carbo for that??? Gainey should trade the dead-weight from the team and get players that are proud to play in Montreal, and that are willing to play as hard as they can to win.....thats the REAL problem...lack of heart for a few individual players....not the coach!!!!

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02-05-2007, 11:23 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by tri color View Post
I liked Carbonneau as a player but as a coach I think he may be another Mario Tremblay. I"m not so sure the players really like playing for him. I think he benches too many players and juggles his lines too much. The players are never going to get use to playing with each other. Really I think that alot of the problem is Carbonneau.
agreed,carbo's adjustments did nothing for 2 periods.i read in todays paper that it was a number of players who did all the motivating between the 2nd and 3rd period.

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02-05-2007, 11:25 AM
  #48
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Hm. I find it difficult to really criticize some of his decisions (Lines, strategy) because he's much more of an expert than I am and has tons of experts at his disposal. While it seemed obvious to us that koivu-higgins-ryder wasn't working 3 games ago, he must have had a reason to keep them together for so long.

I do have a problem with his consistent negativity, though. It seems he's never happy with an outcome. He needs to do two things:
1) After a win, do an interview/press conference talking about only POSITIVE things. "This player played great, this aspect of our game was great, I was really happy with this this and this and this is what we're going to keep building on". Negativity can only motivate so far: he needs to stand up for what his players are doing right and try some positive reinforcement.
2) After a loss, instead of blaming your players for everything, deflect some blame onto himself, even if he didn't deserve it. Just stand by your players and take some of the heat: especially in montreal I'm sure guys will appreciate their coach standing up for them after a bad game.

Right now I feel like players are sitting in the dressing room like lambs to the slaughter and looking at each other wondering who is the next one Carbonneau is going to throw into the meat grinder that is the Montreal Media. So far this as a motivational tool hasn't worked; it's time for him to try something new.

I partially agree with your statement, Carbo does need to stop being so negative towards the team and some of the players. He is the coach and he does need to accept some of the responsibility....
BUT.....
the reason I like Carbo is because he was a former player in Montreal and he knows what it takes in Montreal to win and be successful and he can see by the lack of effort that the players are giving that that is the reason why they are struggling and why the fans are booing them.
Carbo always played his heart out when he played in Montreal and thats why he was loved in the city and he knows that the in order to win, you need to give 110% ALL THE TIME and he can plainly see that a lot of the players just aren't giving that 110%...its usually about 74%!!! Thats why he benches players and thats why he is juggling lines, to get the best lines he can come up with and to get the best effort out of the team.
CARBO IS NOT THE PROBLEM......OVERPAID, LAZY PLAYERS ARE THE PROBLEM!!!!

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02-05-2007, 11:37 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I have no patience for inane topics like this. There's only so much coaching a guy can do before the players on the ice have to actually put up results. Where are Koivu, Higgins, Ryder and Kovalev? How is Carbo's coaching preventing them from scoring goals, or even putting in noticeable efforts?
Agreed.

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02-05-2007, 11:57 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Somethings Habining View Post
If Guy Carbonneau wants to turn things around with his team he needs to start with himself. You cannot keep piling all the blame on your players when you are equally as culpable and not doing everything you can to help your team win.

As I’ll undoubtedly get flamed, I’ll keep to one issue so everyone try to stay on point.

BENCH MANAGEMENT

In order to have your team play its best you have to ensure that the shifts are kept short and that your players finish a 60 minute game without there “tanks being drained”.

Successful coaches keep their players average ice time to 45 seconds or less.

Shifts that are longer contribute to the build up of lactic acid in the muscles that the body cannot re-absorb quick enough. This leads to a dramatic drop in performance and translate to weak passes, bad or slow decisions, losing one-on-one battles and the taking of penalties.

In the recent loss to the Islanders, http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/ES020784.HTM out of 18 players only one had a shift average of 45 seconds or less and that was Maxim Lapierre at 45 seconds exactly. Of all the rest 3 players had shifts that averaged over 1 minute, all 3 play on the top 2 lines, have been unproductive in the goal scoring department lately and are some of the worst +/- players on the team.

You can look up the stats for all of the losses this year and a disturbing pattern of excessive shift times accompany almost all of the losses.

This is the coaches’ responsibility to control, and as Guy Carbonneau said he and Kirk Muller cannot get on the ice and help the team but they need to start doing their job if they expect to put their players in a position to succeed.



Ahhhhhh…………………. I feel better now.
I agree that he's not a perfect coach, heck, he doesn't even have one year of experience. I think he needs tuning and although, he understand the game & players. The things he could improve would be, like you guys suggest;

1. adjustment of hias hockey system throughtout a game
2. shift managment

However, I must disagree with all of you who thinks that carbo is the reason why the players are exhausted at the end of the game because, often, the team don't show up in the first period (meaning they don't skate) it is hard to build up lactic acid in your muscle when you just simply aren't playing.

Hence, we've been changing coach for years now, and it seams that it doesn't change anything on the ice (except for the first half of the season), maybe, the major problem is elsewhere... all I know is that this year, we should have no player that can't disrupt the team chemistry (Theo & Rib are gone), so the team have all the tools to be succesful.

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