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Old
02-02-2014, 12:26 AM
  #601
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
God damn it. This thread makes me so mad.

You know why? It's not because our GM sometimes loses trades. Every GM loses trades. It's because I, and others, can consistently point out, on the day the ****ing trade happens, that is is going to be a trade we lost and lost big. If it's that obvious to most of us, why the **** isn't it obvious to our front office.
This thread makes me mad because I can't make it 3 posts in a row without seeing JVR being mentioned. The trade happened, let's ****ing let it go

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02-02-2014, 07:29 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
He doesn't get it.

He's basically saying he needs to go on hockeydb and see 30 in a particular season to consider him a 30 goal scorer.

Forgetting the fact he's scored 40 in 100 games since he left town. 100 games is more than enough to even out any hot and cold streaks.
100% absolutely correct. If you don't score 30 goals in a season, you are not a 30 goal scorer. You can be on pace for it, but having never done it, you are not one. The term refers to a player that has scored 30 goals over the course of a full season, not a guy that would have if he didn't get injured or the season was longer or a guy that has scored 30 goals over his last X games from this and last season combined.

This is a pretty ridiculous argument, really. I mean, is Mike Bossy a 70 goal scorer? He scored 70 in 82 games spanning two seasons. Is Mario Lemiux a 200 point guy? And so forth and so on.

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02-02-2014, 08:10 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
This thread makes me mad because I can't make it 3 posts in a row without seeing JVR being mentioned. The trade happened, let's ****ing let it go
I agree. JVR had to go. 9 out of 10 on this site back then agreed that he had to go. I am a big time fan of Luke and hope he is here for years to come. No sense getting mad at all the Monday morning QB's

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02-02-2014, 09:01 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
This thread makes me mad because I can't make it 3 posts in a row without seeing JVR being mentioned. The trade happened, let's ****ing let it go
Jeebus...I think you need to let it go. You always get bent out of shape when players who we've undervalued get shipped elsewhere and succeed.

On that note...JVR will be a 30 goal scorer and has continually trended upward while Luke Schenn will be nothing beyond a second pairing defensemen who we "hope" will be more consistent as he continues his underwhelming career. It's kind of hard to look past this when it would be nice to have a 30 goal winger playing with G and we'll probably wind up overpaying for one at some point.

Moreover, it is these kinds of moves that have this club spinning its wheels so it is a legit topic of discussion especially when trying to assess the GM who in this instance didn't properly value what he had. Meanwhile, forum posters had a better sense than the GM...pretty sad.

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02-02-2014, 01:05 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I agree. JVR had to go. 9 out of 10 on this site back then agreed that he had to go. I am a big time fan of Luke and hope he is here for years to come. No sense getting mad at all the Monday morning QB's
Not even close to being true.

He's tearing it up with Kessel, imagine how many points he would have with G, especially since we are a streaky team in terms of goals (currently 17th in the league in both goals per game and goals for).

Luke is just not the player he was supposed to turn into when he was drafted. (Edit: That doesn't mean he doesn't have a future with this team, he could be a decent second pair d-man, don't get me wrong, he's just not going to be that first pair, stud defensive defenseman that he was supposed to be)

I agree that this fan-base needs to move past the JvR talk, but saying that he HAD to go is ridiculous. He had a total of 3 seasons with the Flyers, 3 friggen seasons, and in those 3 seasons he showed enough flashes to stick with him for another year or two.

Love that Flyers fans are complaining now-a-days that this organization needs to "stick by and develop its young players", but now you're claiming 9 out of 10 fans said a 22 year old JvR had to go lol.


Last edited by usahockey22flyers: 02-02-2014 at 01:26 PM.
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02-02-2014, 01:27 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Love that Flyers fans are complaining now-a-days that this organization needs to "stick by and develop its young players", but now you're claiming 9 out of 10 fans said a 22 year old JvR had to go lol.
Ah I don't think many were against the idea of moving JVR around that time. He had that big playoff series against Buffalo in 2011 but didn't take it to the next level the following year like many were expecting. Granted he was banged at times but in his absence guys like Read & Simmonds emerged.

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02-02-2014, 02:55 PM
  #607
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JVR for Schenn+2nd was considered 'fair' at the time IIRC. Burke clearly won that deal and Holmgren just caved on grabbing a big RH defender who can be mean and physical. He probably overlooked Schenn's skating and hockey IQ however.

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02-02-2014, 03:04 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I agree. JVR had to go. 9 out of 10 on this site back then agreed that he had to go. I am a big time fan of Luke and hope he is here for years to come. No sense getting mad at all the Monday morning QB's
While I don't know that it's 9 out of 10, there was definitely a sense of disillusionment concerning JVR by that offseason. I think it was the reports that he was waffling on getting surgery for his injury and that the organization was tired of that sort of thing from him did him in. I know when he left my feeling was "We probably gave up the better player...whatever." Even now, I find it hard to get terribly worked up over it, and I love criticizing the org.

I just got a sense that he was too secure and complacent, for whatever that "sense" is worth as an opinion. I had a spectator's hunch by then that he wouldn't hit his potential until something lit a fire under him, and I theorize the trade did that.

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02-02-2014, 03:25 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
While I don't know that it's 9 out of 10, there was definitely a sense of disillusionment concerning JVR by that offseason. I think it was the reports that he was waffling on getting surgery for his injury and that the organization was tired of that sort of thing from him did him in. I know when he left my feeling was "We probably gave up the better player...whatever." Even now, I find it hard to get terribly worked up over it, and I love criticizing the org.

I just got a sense that he was too secure and complacent, for whatever that "sense" is worth as an opinion. I had a spectator's hunch by then that he wouldn't hit his potential until something lit a fire under him, and I theorize the trade did that.
FreshPersepective posted the TSN interview with Carlyle a while back in this thread that kind of showed JVRs mindset when he first got to TO... basically a hardheaded 'I'll do things my way' kind of guy.

"He used to be a guy 'yeah, but' [or] 'but if'," Carlyle said of van Riemsdyk's response to coaching. "But he's not that [anymore]. Now he's more receptive to [it] … There's a difference between coaching and criticism. Sometimes they all become the same to players. That's the difficult part is when to use it, when not to use it as a coach."

It was only days into the 2013 campaign that Carlyle first publicly prodded van Riemsdyk. "He's got to go into the dirty areas a little bit more and that's one of the things we're going to ask of him," said Carlyle before an early season game against Pittsburgh. "He's a big man, who can go to the front of the net. He's got soft hands around the net. We want to see him drive that puck to that area..."


I loved JVR and the way things look this year the trade was bad for the Flyers, (last year it seemed pretty fair tbh with the way Schenn was playing.) but it did seem like something was really off with him here...

I do think though just going off his numbers and ice time while here that he would have been a 60~ point player now whatever happened (like Brayden Schenn will very likely be in the future)... but not the same kind of 60 point guy if that makes sense, he would be far more one dimensional.

For me that is really what has changed watching him in TO compared to Philly (especially this year)... he backchecks harder, battles on the boards, does not give up on plays, uses his size and is aggressive. His skillset really has not rocketed or anything... he just seems to compete more and be on all the time. It is like watching him at his best with the Flyers all the time. I think every Flyers fan knew his ability was not in question.

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02-02-2014, 03:31 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post


JVR for Schenn+2nd was considered 'fair' at the time IIRC. Burke clearly won that deal and Holmgren just caved on grabbing a big RH defender who can be mean and physical. He probably overlooked Schenn's skating and hockey IQ however.
This what I remember as well. Leaf fans said one for one. Most Philly fans said Schenn and a second.

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02-03-2014, 01:11 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
This thread makes me mad because I can't make it 3 posts in a row without seeing JVR being mentioned. The trade happened, let's ****ing let it go
this wouldn't be a problem at all if JVR wasn't playing well and Schenn was playing well. hence, get used to it.

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Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Not even close to being true.

He's tearing it up with Kessel, imagine how many points he would have with G, especially since we are a streaky team in terms of goals (currently 17th in the league in both goals per game and goals for).

Luke is just not the player he was supposed to turn into when he was drafted. (Edit: That doesn't mean he doesn't have a future with this team, he could be a decent second pair d-man, don't get me wrong, he's just not going to be that first pair, stud defensive defenseman that he was supposed to be)

I agree that this fan-base needs to move past the JvR talk, but saying that he HAD to go is ridiculous. He had a total of 3 seasons with the Flyers, 3 friggen seasons, and in those 3 seasons he showed enough flashes to stick with him for another year or two.

Love that Flyers fans are complaining now-a-days that this organization needs to "stick by and develop its young players", but now you're claiming 9 out of 10 fans said a 22 year old JvR had to go lol.
spot on
9/10 saying he had to go? what utter revisionist BS that is.

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02-03-2014, 02:42 PM
  #612
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I think the issue here is, that yes, many agreed that JVR had to go. it was the return that makes some fans so mad.

I have no issues with JVR getting moved, but for a 2nd/3rd pairing stay at home Dman? that's a joke. Homer should have pushed harder for Yandle. i'm sure we all agree that this team needs a young PMD more than another Grossmann/Coburn type.

saying JVR had to be moved is fine. but the return we got back was a joke. it could have been much much better.

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02-03-2014, 02:54 PM
  #613
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Meh. I have a feeling if he was traded for Yandle we would be pretty fed up with his defensive play. He has 35 points already yet is a team worst -14 on a team whose forwards give plenty of support to the defense.

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02-03-2014, 02:57 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Meh. I have a feeling if he was traded for Yandle we would be pretty fed up with his defensive play. He has 35 points already yet is a team worst -14 on a team whose forwards give plenty of support to the defense.
Yup, plus Phoenix wasn't in a position to where they had to move Yandle so that one could have ended up worse with how much it could have cost to bring him here.

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02-03-2014, 03:06 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Meh. I have a feeling if he was traded for Yandle we would be pretty fed up with his defensive play. He has 35 points already yet is a team worst -14 on a team whose forwards give plenty of support to the defense.
Not to mention, the team was looking for a defensive guy at the time of the trade.

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02-03-2014, 03:15 PM
  #616
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This what I remember as well. Leaf fans said one for one. Most Philly fans said Schenn and a second.
Pretty confident Chris and I wanted a 2nd or Kadri added. Powerforwards are slower growing fruit.

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02-03-2014, 03:19 PM
  #617
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Not to mention, the team was looking for a defensive guy at the time of the trade.
That too. They needed defensive bodyguards for The Bum Who Shall Not Be Named.

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02-03-2014, 03:41 PM
  #618
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Paul could have "pushed" as hard as he wanted, they weren't gonna get Yandle for JVR along. The plus they wanted was significant (one of B Schenn or Couts was the rumored plus if I remember correctly), if the price was set that high you aren't getting them to come down to anything we would have considered reasonable. And as beef said, we'd probably all be displeased with Yandle.

I'm still confident that Schenn will be a rock for a long while here, so while we may not have won the trade I'm over it. I suggest people follow suit.

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02-03-2014, 04:46 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Jeebus...I think you need to let it go. You always get bent out of shape when players who we've undervalued get shipped elsewhere and succeed.

On that note...JVR will be a 30 goal scorer and has continually trended upward while Luke Schenn will be nothing beyond a second pairing defensemen who we "hope" will be more consistent as he continues his underwhelming career. It's kind of hard to look past this when it would be nice to have a 30 goal winger playing with G and we'll probably wind up overpaying for one at some point.

Moreover, it is these kinds of moves that have this club spinning its wheels so it is a legit topic of discussion especially when trying to assess the GM who in this instance didn't properly value what he had. Meanwhile, forum posters had a better sense than the GM...pretty sad.
I don't know if I always do that, I just want people to be able to separate the trade and how Luke Schenn is doing. The trade is done. How JVR is doing has no bearing on my criticism of Luke Schenn, that's all.

I didn't like the return either and felt JVR would round into form and it's looking to be true, but I can separate my criticism of the GM and of Luke Schenn. I reserve criticizing Homer on the Homer thread.

Who else have I been pissed about succeeding elsewhere?

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02-03-2014, 04:47 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Not even close to being true.

He's tearing it up with Kessel, imagine how many points he would have with G, especially since we are a streaky team in terms of goals (currently 17th in the league in both goals per game and goals for).

Luke is just not the player he was supposed to turn into when he was drafted. (Edit: That doesn't mean he doesn't have a future with this team, he could be a decent second pair d-man, don't get me wrong, he's just not going to be that first pair, stud defensive defenseman that he was supposed to be)

I agree that this fan-base needs to move past the JvR talk, but saying that he HAD to go is ridiculous. He had a total of 3 seasons with the Flyers, 3 friggen seasons, and in those 3 seasons he showed enough flashes to stick with him for another year or two.

Love that Flyers fans are complaining now-a-days that this organization needs to "stick by and develop its young players", but now you're claiming 9 out of 10 fans said a 22 year old JvR had to go lol.
Question: who do you think the more talented player is: JVR or Jake? Jake is a promising player with loads of talent, however he has faltered a bit this year playing with Giroux. I love G and think he's great, but people talk about him like he's Sidney Crosby and could turn Riley Cote into a 20 goal scorer.

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02-03-2014, 04:57 PM
  #621
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I feel for Luke Schenn. He goes from 21:51 of ice time last season to 17:38 this season. On top of it, when he goes home in the off season to train, he ends up bulking up. What the hell does the team want with him? Do they want him to be fleet of foot? Do they want him to be a physical hammer? Once again, it all comes down to a lack of communication as to what the club wants from Schenn.

If I'm GM of the team, I have talk with Luke about his foot speed. I tell him he doesn't need to be 6'2 and 230 pounds. He needs to be around the 200 to 210 mark. He doesn't need to be the physical hammer, but he needs to be able to bump accordingly. I think that's what frustrates me the most about Schenn - nobody seems to know what they want from him and what their expectations are.

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02-03-2014, 05:05 PM
  #622
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I feel for Luke Schenn. He goes from 21:51 of ice time last season to 17:38 this season. On top of it, when he goes home in the off season to train, he ends up bulking up. What the hell does the team want with him? Do they want him to be fleet of foot? Do they want him to be a physical hammer? Once again, it all comes down to a lack of communication as to what the club wants from Schenn.

If I'm GM of the team, I have talk with Luke about his foot speed. I tell him he doesn't need to be 6'2 and 230 pounds. He needs to be around the 200 to 210 mark. He doesn't need to be the physical hammer, but he needs to be able to bump accordingly. I think that's what frustrates me the most about Schenn - nobody seems to know what they want from him and what their expectations are.
Hitting isn't just about weight (Rinaldo is a perfect example of that). 210 would be a perfect weight for Schenn IMO, could still crunch but gain some much needed mobility. I think he bulks so much because he knows he'll drop during the course of the season. Lots of players pack on a few extra pounds because they know they'll inevitably lose some mass but 230 is just ridiculous. Schenn should come into camp at 215lbs at most, dropping the ~7ish pounds during the season would then put him in an ideal range.

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02-03-2014, 05:08 PM
  #623
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Pretty confident Chris and I wanted a 2nd or Kadri added. Powerforwards are slower growing fruit.
Yeah, I was pushing hard the idea that JVR for LSchenn straight up was a terrible idea. Leafs fans called me a homer and laughed when the deal actually happened because I was "wrong."

Now those same Leafs fans are like, "Haha, we got a steal."

Morons.

Honest answer: Never trust a Leafs' fan talent or value evaluation.

I think I actually mentioned at the time, that I didn't want to move JVR for LSchenn unless they added more than even just the 2nd that most Philly fans seemed fine with.

In fact, I recall offering Laughton + 2nd for LSchenn as a more fair offer.

I do think, in the long run, we'll be okay with Schenn. He's exactly the partner that Gustafsson needs. Gus/Schenn 2nd pair is solid. Gostisbehere or Hagg with Grossmann on the bottom pairing should be fine; possibly better if Morin makes the jump quickly.

Streit with Coburn on the top pairing is not ideal, but if we could improve upon Streit, we should take that opportunity.

Our defense isn't that bad. Our goaltending is solid. Our offense is world class when Giroux is Giroux.

We're still an upper echelon NHL team even with LSchenn instead of JVR. We're just not the big boy anymore. We need for our younger guys to develop a little more and get a real #1. That is when we become the big man on campus again.

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02-03-2014, 05:08 PM
  #624
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Am I allowed to say that I am currently happy with Schenn, especially since he has Gus with him? I hope this keeps up and does very well. Berube making them the starting pair against the Kings says a lot.

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02-03-2014, 05:13 PM
  #625
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Am I allowed to say that I am currently happy with Schenn, especially since he has Gus with him? I hope this keeps up and does very well. Berube making them the starting pair against the Kings says a lot.
Gus needed Schenn and Schenn needed Gus.

I think they compliment each other's weaknesses perfectly.

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