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2002 Red Wings - Best team in NHL history?

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02-02-2014, 12:57 PM
  #1
Mav3rick07
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2002 Red Wings - Best team in NHL history?




51–17–10–4

Also went on to win the Stanley Cup.


B.Shanahan S.Yzerman B.Hull
L.Robitaille S.Fedorov T.Holmstrom
I.Larionov P.Datsyuk K.Draper
B.Deveraux S.Avery K.Maltby

N.Lidstrom M.Dandenault
C.Chelios S.Duchesne
F.Olausson J.Fischer

D.Hasek
M.Legace

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02-02-2014, 12:58 PM
  #2
SidGenoMario
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A good team, but not enough hall of famers.

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02-02-2014, 01:29 PM
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Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mav3rick07 View Post



51–17–10–4

Also went on to win the Stanley Cup.


B.Shanahan S.Yzerman B.Hull
L.Robitaille S.Fedorov T.Holmstrom
I.Larionov P.Datsyuk K.Draper
B.Deveraux S.Avery K.Maltby

N.Lidstrom M.Dandenault
C.Chelios S.Duchesne
F.Olausson J.Fischer

D.Hasek
M.Legace
No. It's not just simply name value for the players, you have to consider those player's career stage. Most of those big names were well past it and one of them hadn't yet entered his prime. The 96-97 Red Wings cup winner was the better team.

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02-02-2014, 01:51 PM
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ResilientBeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mav3rick07 View Post



51–17–10–4

Also went on to win the Stanley Cup.


B.Shanahan S.Yzerman B.Hull
L.Robitaille S.Fedorov T.Holmstrom
I.Larionov P.Datsyuk K.Draper
B.Deveraux S.Avery K.Maltby

N.Lidstrom M.Dandenault
C.Chelios S.Duchesne
F.Olausson J.Fischer

D.Hasek
M.Legace
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
A good team, but not enough hall of famers.
The bolded are, or are surefire hall of famers

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02-02-2014, 02:06 PM
  #5
King Forsberg
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I'd say Datsyuk will probably be a hall of fame candidate as well.

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02-02-2014, 02:09 PM
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Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
I'd say Datsyuk will probably be a hall of fame candidate as well.
I expect he will. He's the name player I referenced that wasn't yet in his prime. 01-02 was his rookie season.

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02-02-2014, 02:09 PM
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Sprague Cleghorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
The bolded are, or are surefire hall of famers
Yes, but most of those guys were past their prime.

I would say the title belongs to the:

1976-77 Montreal Canadiens

RS: 60-8-12 (132 points, an NHL record)
PO: 12-2

HOFers (10): Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Jacques Lemaire, Yvan Cournoyer, Ken Dryden, Bob Gainey, Scotty Bowman (if you want to include head coaches)

Individual and Team Awards (15): Vezina Trophy, Art Ross Trophy, Retro Richard Trophy, Norris Trophy, Hart Trophy, Lester B. Pearson Award, Conn Smythe Trophy, Jack Adams Award, 4x 1st AST, 1x 2nd AST, Retro President's Trophy, Stanley Cup

All of the HOFers mentioned above were in their prime.


Last edited by Sprague Cleghorn: 02-04-2014 at 09:09 PM.
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02-02-2014, 02:41 PM
  #8
Kyle McMahon
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The 2002 Red Wings have become the most overrated team of all time in here. They weren't any better than the previous Red Wing champions of that era, not the Avalanche and Devil teams from around the same time.

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02-02-2014, 03:34 PM
  #9
Terry Yake
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most of that team was past its prime. a great team yes, the best team ever? no

the 97-98 back to back cup winning red wings were better than the 2002 team

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02-02-2014, 05:11 PM
  #10
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'02 Red Wings had more pressure on them than the 97 and 98 teams. They were built to win it all, anything else but a win was a massive failure. They were the team everyone was playing the hardest against just to be able to say we beat the wings. I agree its not the storngest of all time but its up there. The habs team mentioned earlier is most likely the strongest aswell as the "silver sevens"

'97 was prolly the strongest.

Shanahan - Yzerman - Lapointe
Kozlov - Larionov - Fedorov
Maltby - Draper - McCarty
Sandström - Brown - Kocur

Lidström - Murphy
Fetisov - Konstantinov
Ward - Rouse
Pushor

Vernon
Osgood

Bowman

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02-02-2014, 08:08 PM
  #11
TheMoreYouKnow
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They weren't the best team all-time for the obvious reasons cited but they were better than the 97 or 98 Wings. The 02 Wings dominated the NHL that year from start to finish..that's rare in the NHL and something the 97 and 98 Wings didn't do. In fact they didn't even win their division in 97 and 98.

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02-02-2014, 08:10 PM
  #12
Boom Boom Bear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi Hendrix View Post
Yes, but most of those guys were past their prime.

I would say the title belongs to the:

1976-77 Montreal Canadiens

RS: 60-8-12 (132 points, an NHL record)
PO: 12-2

HOFers (9): Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Jacques Lemaire, Yvan Cournoyer, Ken Dryden, Bob Gainey, Scotty Bowman (if you want to include head coaches)

Individual and Team Awards (15): Vezina Trophy, Art Ross Trophy, Retro Richard Trophy, Norris Trophy, Hart Trophy, Lester B. Pearson Award, Conn Smythe Trophy, Jack Adams Award, 4x 1st AST, 1x 2nd AST, Retro President's Trophy, Stanley Cup

All of the HOFers mentioned above were in their prime.
stolen from another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
For the 76-77 Habs I believe their lines and pairing usually went like this:

Shutt-Lamaire-Lafluer
Houle-Mahavolich-Cournoyer
Gainey-Jarvis-Roberts/Chartraw
Lambert-Risebrough-Tremblay

Savard-Lapointe
Nyrop-Robinson
Bouchard-Roberts/Chartraw

Only 17 skaters back then so Roberts and Chartraw acted as "swing" players playing both forward and defensemen.

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Old
02-02-2014, 08:25 PM
  #13
Sprague Cleghorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
stolen from another thread:
Are you suggesting something?

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02-02-2014, 08:50 PM
  #14
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The 02 Wings dominated the NHL that year from start to finish..that's rare in the NHL
So rare that it happened the year before and two years before that? Hell, it would have been four President's Trophy Stanley Cup Winners in a row had the Devils not collapsed in February 2000 when they were 15 points ahead of the Flyers. After a coaching change, they really cruised through the playoffs (14 of their 23 games saw them let in 1 goal or fewer).

Tampa Bay is in that group too (3 points from the President's Trophy), especially when you look at their second-half record: 27-7-2-5. 2003 New Jersey was just 5 points away from the President's Trophy, and beat that team to get to the Finals. It wasn't really rare at all in that era for teams to have both regular season success and playoff success.

And 1997 Detroit may not have a President's Trophy, but their playoff defense speaks for itself. 2002 Detroit let in 3 or more goals 9 times in 23 games. 1997 Detroit let in 3 or more goals just 3 times in 20 games.

And that's just the Dead Puck teams that were as good or better.

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02-02-2014, 09:00 PM
  #15
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i think the Isles & Oilers dynasty teams could've taken the 02 Wings with little problem.

Isles in their last couple of cup-winning seasons had
FORWARDS
Mike Bossy, Bryan Trottier, Clark Gillies, Butch Goring, John Tonelli, Bob Nystrom, Bob Bourne, Brent Sutter, Duane Sutter, Anders Kallur
DEFENCE
Denis Potvin, Stefan Persson, Ken Morrow, Tomas Jonsson, Dave Langevin
GOAL
Billy Smith

The Oilers had
Paul Coffey, Andy Moog for 3 Cups
Wayne Gretzky, Grant Fuhr, Esa Tikkanen for 4 Cups
Jari Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Kevin Lowe for 5 Cups
plus a supporting cast thru the years that included Ken Linsemen, Craig MacTavish, Steve Smith, Charlie Huddy, Randy Gregg, Craig Muni, Kent Nilsson, Reijio Ruotsalainen, Mark Napier, Craig Simpson, Bill Ranford, Marty McSorley etc

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02-02-2014, 09:02 PM
  #16
Boom Boom Bear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi Hendrix View Post
Are you suggesting something?
backing up your position that the Habs team is better than the Wings team by posting the entire team line combos for comparison purposes.

i mean, i guess it was obvious to me, the 4th line combo of Lambert - Risebrough - Tremblay could've easily been a first line on any number of NHL teams at the time that's how strong the Habs' depth was.

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02-02-2014, 09:13 PM
  #17
Sprague Cleghorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
backing up your position that the Habs team is better than the Wings team by posting the entire team line combos for comparison purposes.

i mean, i guess it was obvious to me, the 4th line combo of Lambert - Risebrough - Tremblay could've easily been a first line on any number of NHL teams at the time that's how strong the Habs' depth was.
I though you meant that I copied my post from someone. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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02-02-2014, 10:22 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
The Oilers had
Paul Coffey, Andy Moog for 3 Cups
Wayne Gretzky, Grant Fuhr, Esa Tikkanen for 4 Cups
Jari Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Kevin Lowe for 5 Cups
plus a supporting cast thru the years that included Ken Linsemen, Craig MacTavish, Steve Smith, Charlie Huddy, Randy Gregg, Craig Muni, Kent Nilsson, Reijio Ruotsalainen, Mark Napier, Craig Simpson, Bill Ranford, Marty McSorley etc
Wat has Messier done to you to get excluded here?

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02-02-2014, 11:50 PM
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It was pretty strong for sure but some of them Canadien teams in the 50's and 70's where better.

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02-03-2014, 01:48 AM
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the 76-77 Canadiens seem to be the winners of the thread, every stat line from that team is total domination

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02-03-2014, 01:51 AM
  #21
Morgoth Bauglir
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the 76-77 Canadiens seem to be the winners of the thread, every stat line from that team is total domination
Indeed.

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02-03-2014, 12:19 PM
  #22
Boom Boom Bear
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Wat has Messier done to you to get excluded here?
i'm a Canucks fan, we sometimes randomly erase him from our memories

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02-03-2014, 01:36 PM
  #23
TheMoreYouKnow
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So rare that it happened the year before and two years before that? Hell, it would have been four President's Trophy Stanley Cup Winners in a row had the Devils not collapsed in February 2000 when they were 15 points ahead of the Flyers. After a coaching change, they really cruised through the playoffs (14 of their 23 games saw them let in 1 goal or fewer).

Tampa Bay is in that group too (3 points from the President's Trophy), especially when you look at their second-half record: 27-7-2-5. 2003 New Jersey was just 5 points away from the President's Trophy, and beat that team to get to the Finals. It wasn't really rare at all in that era for teams to have both regular season success and playoff success.

And 1997 Detroit may not have a President's Trophy, but their playoff defense speaks for itself. 2002 Detroit let in 3 or more goals 9 times in 23 games. 1997 Detroit let in 3 or more goals just 3 times in 20 games.

And that's just the Dead Puck teams that were as good or better.
Eh so aside from all the couldas and shouldas you have the 99 Stars and the 01 Avs. And I never said anything about "regular season success" or the President's Trophy. I said *dominate* the season. The 02 Wings were 15 points ahead of the 2nd ranked team.

Only three teams had as big or bigger a gap to the 2nd ranked team and won the Cup since expansion: the 84 Oilers, the 77 & 78 Habs.

So yes, it is quite rare.

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02-03-2014, 03:26 PM
  #24
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Eh so aside from all the couldas and shouldas you have the 99 Stars and the 01 Avs. And I never said anything about "regular season success" or the President's Trophy. I said *dominate* the season. The 02 Wings were 15 points ahead of the 2nd ranked team.

Only three teams had as big or bigger a gap to the 2nd ranked team and won the Cup since expansion: the 84 Oilers, the 77 & 78 Habs.

So yes, it is quite rare.
You're looking at it from a strange angle. Since the 1970s, there have been 26 teams with a better points-percentage at the end of their respective season than the 2002 Detroit Red Wings.

So other four-round era teams like 1989 Calgary and 2001 Colorado - who had better records than Detroit - are somehow less dominant in your mind because while they won a greater number of their regular season games, there were teams in the other Conference with 115 and 111 points respectively? Teams that 1989 Calgary and 2001 Colorado had to face and beat in the Stanley Cup Finals no less!

It's not like Detroit was 15 points ahead of the next best team because there weren't any points to go around (if that were the case, the effect would be seen by a greater extent in the 26 teams with a greater points percentage since the 1970s); it just means that there weren't any particularly strong teams in 2002 (10 points separated #2-16) for Detroit to go through in the playoffs. It makes it a less impressive season.


And did you call the 2000 New Jersey Devils a coulda and shoulda? Their little end of the season misstep which cost them the #1 seed (by 2 points!) for the only time in a four-year block forced them to go through three 100-point teams and a 98-point team in the playoffs. Tampa Bay wasn't some what-if either; they were the #1 in their Conference and the hottest team in a league that had ten 100-point teams. Hell, if the competition in 2000 and 2004 was as poor as it was in 2002, 2000 New Jersey and 2004 Tampa Bay would be President's Trophy winners too.

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02-03-2014, 04:36 PM
  #25
Big Phil
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I saw all of those Wings teams, I still take the 2002 team as the best. Even taking into context that not everyone was at the same stage in their careers. Shanahan, Yzerman, Fedorov were all better in 1997 than 2002. But Lidstrom was better in 2002. Chelios was there in 2002 but not in 1997 or 1998. Robitaille and Hull were old in 2002, but were new additions. Still a bonus. Larionov I guess was better in 1997, but not by a whole lot. Hasek was better in 2002 than previous Wings goalies. Datsyuk was a rookie and not an impactful player as much at the time.

This team peeled through the regular season. The 1997 and 1998 teams didn't.

2001-'02 points:
Detroit - 116
Boston - 101
Toronto - 100
San Jose - 99
Colorado - 99

That is some serious separation there. All teams played the same teams, you know? The 2001 Avs didn't have that kind of gap. The 1989 Flames sort of did if you want to discount Montreal who were two points behind them and then no one else had 100. What other Cup winners have had that much in between them and the second place point getters recently? In a shortened season the Blackhawks had 79 points to Pittsburgh's 72, and then a gap after that. But you just don't see that where the team that dominates the regular season still wins.

Either way, while it is the greatest team I've seen in a while, it still isn't the best all-time. Others before it still prosper.

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