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Guy Carbonneau = Part of the Problem! Game 2

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Old
02-05-2007, 12:39 PM
  #51
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Carbo has some serious adjustments to make, especially his attitude towards refferies. I think the zebra men are having a vendetta towards the Habs because of Carbonneau. He should calm down.

Next: he seems unable to put the right players together. The line jugglings create uncertainties and frustration with players.

Finally: he speaks too much to the media. he should solve his problems and carry his messages in the dressing room first. Not thru post game scrums. His bleeding heart's act are starting to make me sick.

We should remember though that we have two rookies behind the bench: Carbo and Muller. They gonna learn. They are intelligent.

Don't expect to see another coach kicked out of Montreal in a near future. Have you noticed that all the past coaches are doing excellent work elsewhere in Vancouver, Pittsburg, New-Jersey and Minnesota. And Pat Burns will be back soon.

The problem is not with coaching. It's the type of players they have to deal with. Bad trades + bad drafts (pre 2000) + bad mix of players = average team.

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02-05-2007, 12:42 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
I partially agree with your statement, Carbo does need to stop being so negative towards the team and some of the players. He is the coach and he does need to accept some of the responsibility....
BUT.....
the reason I like Carbo is because he was a former player in Montreal and he knows what it takes in Montreal to win and be successful and he can see by the lack of effort that the players are giving that that is the reason why they are struggling and why the fans are booing them.
Carbo always played his heart out when he played in Montreal and thats why he was loved in the city and he knows that the in order to win, you need to give 110% ALL THE TIME and he can plainly see that a lot of the players just aren't giving that 110%...its usually about 74%!!! Thats why he benches players and thats why he is juggling lines, to get the best lines he can come up with and to get the best effort out of the team.
CARBO IS NOT THE PROBLEM......OVERPAID, LAZY PLAYERS ARE THE PROBLEM!!!!

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02-05-2007, 12:52 PM
  #53
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why is it this year in particular the team is LAZY?

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02-05-2007, 12:53 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
I partially agree with your statement, Carbo does need to stop being so negative towards the team and some of the players. He is the coach and he does need to accept some of the responsibility....
BUT.....
the reason I like Carbo is because he was a former player in Montreal and he knows what it takes in Montreal to win and be successful and he can see by the lack of effort that the players are giving that that is the reason why they are struggling and why the fans are booing them.
Carbo always played his heart out when he played in Montreal and thats why he was loved in the city and he knows that the in order to win, you need to give 110% ALL THE TIME and he can plainly see that a lot of the players just aren't giving that 110%...its usually about 74%!!! Thats why he benches players and thats why he is juggling lines, to get the best lines he can come up with and to get the best effort out of the team.
CARBO IS NOT THE PROBLEM......OVERPAID, LAZY PLAYERS ARE THE PROBLEM!!!!
I don't think Carbo has been doing a terrible job. I haven't agreed with many of Carbo's decisions but we're doing well and he is still in his first season.
Like a few here, ny biggest problem is his motivation techniques. I don't see what happens in practice or in the change room, but from what I've seen in the games for the past week, Samsonov has been playing well lately and he gets benched. Any confidence and motivation he had going is now guaranteed to be shot.
Like someone stated, he should stop trying to punish players all the time. It's been proven that people react much better to positive reinforcement.

As for my response to the abbove poster: Just because Carbonneau played his heart out doesn't mean he can motivate guys to play the same way.
Take some University classes (well at Ottawa U anyways). You'll quickly notice that just because a guy knows how to do something, doesn't mean he knows how to show people to do the same.
IMO, Carbs needs to work on his motivational skills.

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02-05-2007, 12:54 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by fatmax View Post
I agree that he's not a perfect coach, heck, he doesn't even have one year of experience. I think he needs tuning and although, he understand the game & players. The things he could improve would be, like you guys suggest;

1. adjustment of hias hockey system throughtout a game
2. shift managment

However, I must disagree with all of you who thinks that carbo is the reason why the players are exhausted at the end of the game because, often, the team don't show up in the first period (meaning they don't skate) it is hard to build up lactic acid in your muscle when you just simply aren't playing.

Hence, we've been changing coach for years now, and it seams that it doesn't change anything on the ice (except for the first half of the season), maybe, the major problem is elsewhere... all I know is that this year, we should have no player that can't disrupt the team chemistry (Theo & Rib are gone), so the team have all the tools to be succesful.

BINGO....The last part of that post is perfect.

"we've been changing coach for years now, and it seams that it doesn't change anything on the ice"

That means that instead of getting rid of Carbo at the end of the year or within the next 5 years, we should try getting rid of 5 or 6 of the main players that have been on the team for years....if that means Koivu, then so be it as long as we get fair return for the players we dump. I know for a fact that getting rid of Claude Julien was not a solution to the problem we had last year, Jose Theodore and the rest of the under achieving players we're the reason Julien got canned and thats not right. The players have to play and give an honest effort before we can blame things on the coaches.

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02-05-2007, 12:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by habn8r View Post
why is it this year in particular the team is LAZY?
Because it hasn't been just this year, it has been the past 4 years IMO!!! I didn't say that the players were only lazy this year. I just said that they were lazy in general.

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02-05-2007, 01:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
I don't think Carbo has been doing a terrible job. I haven't agreed with many of Carbo's decisions but we're doing well and he is still in his first season.
Like a few here, ny biggest problem is his motivation techniques. I don't see what happens in practice or in the change room, but from what I've seen in the games for the past week, Samsonov has been playing well lately and he gets benched. Any confidence and motivation he had going is now guaranteed to be shot.
Like someone stated, he should stop trying to punish players all the time. It's been proven that people react much better to positive reinforcement.

As for my response to the abbove poster: Just because Carbonneau played his heart out doesn't mean he can motivate guys to play the same way.
Take some University classes (well at Ottawa U anyways). You'll quickly notice that just because a guy knows how to do something, doesn't mean he knows how to show people to do the same.
IMO, Carbs needs to work on his motivational skills.

I don't need to take any University classes to see the problem and for you to suggest that I do such a thing truely shows your ignorance!!!!
I didn't say one thing about Carbo being a great motivator!!!
I don't agree with him benching Samsonov AT ALL because Sammy was playing well his last 4 or 5 games and to bench him would definitely remove any confidence that Sammy had....dumb move on Carbo's part. I was simply saying that Carbo knows what it takes to win and thats why he is trying different lines and benching different players, I didn't say I agreed with it, but he can't keep using Higgins - Koivu - Ryder and Samsonov - Pleks - Kovalev together every game, because neither of those lines were doing anything.

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02-05-2007, 01:18 PM
  #58
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A while back i recall a statement by carbo where he said that HE nor the assistant coahes could suit up and play for THEM. (the comparison between HIM and the team was a very insulting. perhaps that is just one example that has the team's confidence level on the decline.)

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02-05-2007, 01:57 PM
  #59
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Hm. I find it difficult to really criticize some of his decisions (Lines, strategy) because he's much more of an expert than I am and has tons of experts at his disposal. While it seemed obvious to us that koivu-higgins-ryder wasn't working 3 games ago, he must have had a reason to keep them together for so long.

I do have a problem with his consistent negativity, though. It seems he's never happy with an outcome. He needs to do two things:
1) After a win, do an interview/press conference talking about only POSITIVE things. "This player played great, this aspect of our game was great, I was really happy with this this and this and this is what we're going to keep building on". Negativity can only motivate so far: he needs to stand up for what his players are doing right and try some positive reinforcement.
2) After a loss, instead of blaming your players for everything, deflect some blame onto himself, even if he didn't deserve it. Just stand by your players and take some of the heat: especially in montreal I'm sure guys will appreciate their coach standing up for them after a bad game.

Right now I feel like players are sitting in the dressing room like lambs to the slaughter and looking at each other wondering who is the next one Carbonneau is going to throw into the meat grinder that is the Montreal Media. So far this as a motivational tool hasn't worked; it's time for him to try something new.
I'm a huuuge Carbo fan, but...

I agree with everything you wrote (I hope it's not the case, for example what you described in the dressing room, but I fear that it may be the case sometimes or more than sometimes...).

I really agree with the whole negative/positive/negative, etc, topic of yours...
Carbo may need to be less negative (more positive reinforcement), and maybe now find an alternative to benching players.

All this said, there are still some players not delivering consistent efforts/results (coach or no coach), but I'll hope we get more consistency from the Habs sooner than later...


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 02-05-2007 at 02:04 PM.
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02-05-2007, 02:26 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
I don't need to take any University classes to see the problem and for you to suggest that I do such a thing truely shows your ignorance!!!!
This wasn't a shot at you (althoguh I can now see how that can be seen as such).
I was just using it as an example. Most University profs, in my program of Computer Sciences anyhow, are VERY knowledgeable and are very interested in the subject they teach. BUT, most of the, can't teach. They can't translate that information and interest to the students.

So, what I was simply saying that IMO, coaching is a lot like that, so just because Carbonneau played with heart, doesn't mean that he can teach or motivate players to play with heart.

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02-05-2007, 02:37 PM
  #61
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Carbo is not the problem. At the start of the season the Habs were playing with passion under a smart system. Now they're playing lazy and under a smart system. That tells me Carbo's still doing his job, the team is just not trying. Yeah it is part of the coach's responsibility to get the team playing its best but he's doing what he should be. He's pushing them to be better by telling them they aren't doing a good enough job. The best NHL coaches all did it, Scotty Bowman was notorious for it. You have to get the players trying to prove something to you by telling them they suck (for lack of a better word) and he's been doing that. If the players aren't responding then they are the ones who just don't care.

The only mistake I think Carbonneau has made is that he's trying to get them to play well 5 on 5. I love him for trying but it's just not working. We don't have any big players up front, it can't be done. They need to play strong defensive hockey 5 on 5 (which they can do) and have the fast players skating hard to draw penalties so the team can score on the PP.

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02-05-2007, 03:24 PM
  #62
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I honestly believe Carbo wants to win more then anything! He wants Montreal to be a contender and to be the best team on the ice. The problem I believe is that he trys to motivate the guys the way he would be motivated. Unfortunately, that doesn't work. He doesn't realize that there are 23 individuals in that dressing room that are motiviated 23 different ways. He needs to figure out what makes them tick.

Best intentions aside, I think he will grow into a fine coach. He just has to go through the growing pains.

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02-05-2007, 04:24 PM
  #63
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Mentioning Burns is not really fair. We didn't fire him. He left for greener pastures

Serge tried to secure him but failed. He should have stayed and WON!

Therrien? NO WAY! The Pens will pay for hiring him and IMO watch him get canned if he pulls some stupid move. Their fans will freak considering Crosby, Malkin and Stall etc had the power to win but it turns out to be the coach who screws up.

For example; we were winning in game 4 against the Canes and threatening to take a 3-1 series lead in 2002 when bonehead gets a bench minor for unsportsman conduct. He got too hot headed with McCreary.

Result: NO ROUND 2

While I'm on the subject of Therrien; in 2002 we played without the puck with great tenacity and we had excellent PK numbers. It wasn't Therrien who instilled that. Therrien made the playoffs with us in 2002 but failed in '03.

TRIVIA: Who was Therrien's assistant in 2002 and left before 2003?

Hint: This thread pertains to him.

Lemaire was never going to coach here again.

Carbo is riding a .6 record as a rookie. All is OK. Yes, this a rough patch right now but he'll figure it out.

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02-05-2007, 06:11 PM
  #64
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There's a few things he needs to stop doing.

Fourth line out on offensive zone face-offs.
Second line out on defensize zone face-offs.

Get the D to jump in the rush a bit more.
Get the D to step forward make a hit, instead of moving back passively.
Make sure the team moves the puck forward at all times, throwing it back to the D has been happening way too much, sometimes you have to do it but it's happening way too frequently.

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02-05-2007, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
There's a few things he needs to stop doing.

Fourth line out on offensive zone face-offs.
Second line out on defensize zone face-offs.

Get the D to jump in the rush a bit more.
Get the D to step forward make a hit, instead of moving back passively.
Make sure the team moves the puck forward at all times, throwing it back to the D has been happening way too much, sometimes you have to do it but it's happening way too frequently.
While I agree with your parameters I disagree with comment on the D needing to jump into the rush. The D have been jumping in on the rush normally. Francis Bouillion, Dandenault and Souray all do this very effectively and often. Heck, Souray scored the game winner in OT vs Pittsburgh because of it and the game winner vs Buffalo a while back in OT with 1 second left. I would say the opposite, in that, the D jumps in too often which causes turnovers.

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02-05-2007, 06:59 PM
  #66
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WOW, some interesting responses and I agree with some of the sentiments. My original post though was to shed light on the fact that Carbonneau was not managing his bench properly and had an equal share of the blame for many losses this year and especially last Saturday nights.

A coach’s control of ice time keeps his team to his plan, raises the expectations for all players to complete all of their shifts with high energy levels and can also limit the ice time of players that are not pulling their weight.

Coaches have been accomplishing this with 3 lines, he has 4 at his disposal. There is a reason why they don’t only engrave the names of the players on the Stanley Cup.

I also like Carbonneau as a coach and believe that he can help lead this franchise back were it belongs amongst the elite on the ice. He has done an outstanding job so far this year as a rookie coach, but there is more he needs to learn. Managing shift lengths is one of them.


Lets try to get back on topic if we can.

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02-05-2007, 08:43 PM
  #67
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Dumb inherited a team that was coached by a career GM to a 100 point season and a berth in the second round. That team came from waaaaayyy behind to win the Atlantic Division title. It's not like Dumb has to do much to get that team to play. A trained monkey could coach that team to what it's doing. Dumb is just a place holder until Lou decides John Maclean is ready to be his coach.

Julien is not a bad coach, but his coaching style just didn, suit this team. In NJ though, it's a match made in heaven. As for Carbo, his coaching style is the same as Julien's, but he has no real coaching experience, which makes it even worse.

I think he's lost his team, which is why some players are playing like that. Here's some of the things I think he's doing wrong:

- Bad asset management. Not using the right players with each other and playing them in wrong situations. Sammy-Kovalev, Ryder, Perez... not playing Markov more (he should play 28+ mins each game!)

- Wrong system. This team is not built to stand around and trap. Poor transitions and overall a bad system for this team. Offensive players don't like to play a defensive system and always be blamed for not producing afterwards.

- Negative attitude. Always blaming the refs and the players. Blaming the goalies when they've stellar most of the time before. Not a good way to gain respect from anyone.

- bench management. The original poster said it all already.

All these things and a bunch of little decisions he's been taking throughout the year (can't remember them all) have contributed to some players not playing for him anymore, and others not performing because they are not being used properly.

Being around hockey players and dressing rooms, you'd be amazed at how fast players can give up on a coach. Especially when these players make millions.

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02-05-2007, 09:00 PM
  #68
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Dumb inherited a team that was coached by a career GM to a 100 point season and a berth in the second round. That team came from waaaaayyy behind to win the Atlantic Division title. It's not like Dumb has to do much to get that team to play. A trained monkey could coach that team to what it's doing. Dumb is just a place holder until Lou decides John Maclean is ready to be his coach.
I guess you don't know Dumb. Or Dauterive, like some other poster calls him. The guy is an astute student of the game, and you could learn more than one thing or two being with him. He understands the details of a game more than Carbo ever will.

Dumb has a pretty solid lineup, I reckon. But his defensive corps is pretty thin. He doesn't have the luxury of having 2 quarterbacks on the PP, like the Habs have.

He's the perfect coach for that team because all that team needs is a tweaker. And that's what Julien is. You seem to forget how bad the Habs were playing before Julien came onto the scene. With Julien, the Habs LOOKED and FELT like a real NHL hockey team. It had a system (the same system he put in place in Hamilton, and that the organisation still follows).

Today, with what I saw recently, I'm wondering what defensive scheme Carbo is playing. Because, frankly, in its zone, the Habs are pathetic when pressured. It's easy to rattle the Habs: pressure 2 and voilà!

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02-05-2007, 09:04 PM
  #69
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Julien is not a bad coach, but his coaching style just didn, suit this team. In NJ though, it's a match made in heaven. As for Carbo, his coaching style is the same as Julien's, but he has no real coaching experience, which makes it even worse.

I think he's lost his team, which is why some players are playing like that. Here's some of the things I think he's doing wrong:

- Bad asset management. Not using the right players with each other and playing them in wrong situations. Sammy-Kovalev, Ryder, Perez... not playing Markov more (he should play 28+ mins each game!)

- Wrong system. This team is not built to stand around and trap. Poor transitions and overall a bad system for this team. Offensive players don't like to play a defensive system and always be blamed for not producing afterwards.

- Negative attitude. Always blaming the refs and the players. Blaming the goalies when they've stellar most of the time before. Not a good way to gain respect from anyone.

- bench management. The original poster said it all already.

All these things and a bunch of little decisions he's been taking throughout the year (can't remember them all) have contributed to some players not playing for him anymore, and others not performing because they are not being used properly.

Being around hockey players and dressing rooms, you'd be amazed at how fast players can give up on a coach. Especially when these players make millions.
Actually, Julien's style of coaching was suited. Until Gainey got Kovalev. Julien HATES players like him. Julien is a work ethic freak. For him, everything in the game is about work ethic. If you have solid work ethic, there's no way you're not going to win. Apply the system you're taught with solid work ethic and there's no reason to succeed. Case and point New Jersey this season. He found a pretty seasoned, well tuned team, where the work ethic is near perfect.

To be honest, Carbo would probably want the same thing, except he can't express it the same way Julien could. If you listened to Julien in interviews, that's all he talked about. Work ethic.

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02-05-2007, 09:12 PM
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Actually, Julien's style of coaching was suited. Until Gainey got Kovalev. Julien HATES players like him. Julien is a work ethic freak. For him, everything in the game is about work ethic. If you have solid work ethic, there's no way you're not going to win. Apply the system you're taught with solid work ethic and there's no reason to succeed. Case and point New Jersey this season. He found a pretty seasoned, well tuned team, where the work ethic is near perfect.

To be honest, Carbo would probably want the same thing, except he can't express it the same way Julien could. If you listened to Julien in interviews, that's all he talked about. Work ethic.
Here we go.

Julien was here for 41 games last year. The first 19 (13-3-3 record) we won many games we had no business winning. We were the cardiac kids, playing totally above our heads.

The next 22 games (funny enough beginning when Kovalev got injured)- We were 6-13-3 and looked like the joke of the NHL. The last game he coached, we got outshot 18-2 in the first period. The team was pathetic under Julien last year, but I'm sure it's all Kovalev's fault.

-Kovalev is not the best player for any coach to have, but everything Julien did last year turned to ****. They had no plan of attack whatsoever, it was just a matter of time before that team collapsed.


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02-05-2007, 09:15 PM
  #71
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I would say Rafa Benitez will be coaching by March and he will have Peter Crouch on the PP.

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02-05-2007, 09:17 PM
  #72
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Carbonneau also has Ryder and Kovalev on the PK constantly....if they can't get the puck out of the zone on 5 - 5, why does he put them out there shorthanded? lol

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02-05-2007, 09:20 PM
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I would say Rafa Benitez will be coaching by March and he will have Peter Crouch on the PP.
De quessé?

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02-05-2007, 09:21 PM
  #74
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IMO, the team won't be a contender until guys who play hard 65% of the time are gone. There are too many streaky veterans on this team who don't play hard all the time, or are simply too inconsistent of players.

Now Samsonov, Kovalev, and Ryder are 3 guys on the top two lines who have trouble putting in consistent efforts. Plus they are double troubles because all are average to below average defensively. Koivu has struggled mightly lately, but has proven track record of hard work, and Higgins and Latendresse both are coming along nicely. Plekanec i like a lot as he is becoming mini Koivu.

I like Bonk cause aside from the occassional bad penalty and mental lapse is a perfect third line centre.I like Johnson however i think you need a guy like him with more grit. He has so many chances to put the body on but doesn't.

In general i like the forwards down the middle. I like Koivu, Plekanec, Bonk. However none of them are flanked with any sort of consistent veteran wingers.

Up front, Montreal has solid pieces but too many similiar ones physically, mentally, and in terms of consistency.

The other problem is defense in which partly is the system. There is one puck mover and thats Markov. Komisarek i think is slowly coming in that respect and becoming reasonable. Rivet, Dandenault, and Bouillon are simply horrid in passing. They are okay skating or jumping up but the outlet passes are not even close.

Now this isn't a blow the team apart post, but simply glaring issues that i believe need to be addressed. There is some very good pieces in place, but there needs to be an attitude adjustment. For how years do we need the same style of team.

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02-06-2007, 06:25 PM
  #75
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Okay second game since I posted the Bench Management thread. Time to see if the coaches can build off the last period of the Pittsburgh game especially when the shifts were short and the tide of the game turned.

I'm mixed about the Samsonov situation as there is alot of ufulfilled expectations with him.

I totally respect the decision though by the caoch and the team. The message I get from it is that it's time for everyone to get serious or get out.

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