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Round 2, Vote 13 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
02-03-2014, 11:32 PM
  #1
Hawkey Town 18
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Round 2, Vote 13 (HOH Top Centers)

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
  • Top 4 players will be added to the list
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
  • If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
  • The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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Old
02-03-2014, 11:35 PM
  #2
Hawkey Town 18
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Vote 13 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday Feb 10 at 9PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, Feb 9.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 13 will be for places 49 through 52 (4 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 13 eligible candidates for Vote 13. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Frank Fredrickson
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Igor Larionov
Jacques Lemaire
Mickey MacKay
Vaclav Nedomansky
Vladimir Petrov
Joe Primeau
Denis Savard
Daryl Sittler
Mats Sundin
Henrik Zetterberg

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02-04-2014, 12:00 AM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
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On the home stretch - 3 rounds left. I think it might be time to think about who are must-adds on our list.

My thoughts -

1) Petrov and Nedomansky have to be on our list, probably this round. I don't even have to check to know that they were the top 2 from my round 1 list who are yet to be added. I'm planning on focusing my energies on Nedomasky this round. When I was doing research as to whether he was primarily a center or a right wing in Czechoslovakia, I came around more than one report by North American scouts that called him the best player in Europe in the early 70s - quite impressive when you consider his competition. I really hope that google archives' current partial lack of functionality won't prevent me from finding them again and posting for us to evaluate. And Nedomansky was something like Larionov in that he came to North America after his prime and played very well, first in the WHA, then in the NHL where he actually led a bad Red Wings team in scoring once season.

2) Larionov and Savard have to be in our top 60 somewhere, though I have Larionov below Petrov and I'll have him below Nedomansky if what I suspect about Nedomansky's peak in Europe holds up.

3) If Fredrickson and MacKay are indeed the "next best" PCHA centers after Taylor (and I think they probably were), they need to make our top 60 somewhere.

4) Duke Keats needs to make our top 60, probably not this round, but in one of the last 2 rounds. Impact player in the NHA before the First World War, lost prime years to fight the war, came back and rather than rejoining the NHA, he became the face of the "Big 4" prairie league which would later turn into the WCHL and attract players such as Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, and Eddie Shore. Basically owned the WCHL All Star center spot until Fredrickson stole it from him once, then went back to the NHL and finished 9th and 10th in scoring in a consolidated NHL in his age 31 and 32 seasons. Excellent longevity as an impact player for a player of that era, especially for one who played a game as physical as Keats.

I'll listen to arguments for adding any of the other candidates, even over some of the ones I listed above if the case is good enough. But right now, I don't think it would be a travesty if any of the others missed our top 60.

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Old
02-04-2014, 12:31 AM
  #4
seventieslord
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Petrov is a shoo-in.

Zetterberg? Someone make the case that he should be this far behind datsyuk. If he got in this round in the top 2, it would still be too late. A slightly worse offensive performer (but with more goals), tends to be better in the playoffs, a leader, more physical (yet clean), and by some accounts no worse defensively. Less visually appealing, though (does that matter?)

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Old
02-04-2014, 12:35 AM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Petrov is a shoo-in.

Zetterberg? Someone make the case that he should be this far behind datsyuk. If he got in this round in the top 2, it would still be too late. A slightly worse offensive performer (but with more goals), tends to be better in the playoffs, a leader, more physical (yet clean), and by some accounts no worse defensively. Less visually appealing, though (does that matter?)
Weren't all those scouting reports and player's polls calling Datsyuk one of the very best players in the league the main reason he got in when he did? I don't think Zetterberg has that feather in his cap.

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02-04-2014, 01:17 AM
  #6
TheDevilMadeMe
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Here are the VsX 7 year scores (1926-2013), this post, with the exception of using Hockey Outsider's calculation to update scores to include last year.

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2013):

Rank Player Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 155.1
2 Phil Esposito 123.4
3 Mario Lemieux 120.4
4 Jean Beliveau 108.9
5 Stan Mikita 108.1
6 Bill Cowley* 103.5
7 Marcel Dionne 103.2
8 Howie Morenz 102.8
9 Joe Sakic 97.9
10 Frank Boucher 95.4
11 Elmer Lach* 95.4
12 Max Bentley* 94.9
13 Steve Yzerman 93.5
14 Bryan Trottier 93.5
15 Joe Thornton 93.3
16 Syl Apps Sr 93
17 Peter Forsberg 90.9
18 Nels Stewart 90.5
19 Sidney Crosby 90.5
20 Adam Oates 90.2
21 Marty Barry 89.9
22 Mark Messier 89.5
23 Norm Ullman 88.7
24 Jean Ratelle 88.5
25 Peter Stastny 88.3
26 Sid Abel 87.8
27 Bobby Clarke 87.6
28 Ron Francis 87.6
29 Milt Schmidt 87.5
30 Henri Richard 86.2
31 Dale Hawerchuk 85.9
32 Denis Savard 85.4
33 Eric Lindros 85.4
34 Alex Delvecchio 84.9
35 Gilbert Perreault 84.6
36 Darryl Sittler 84.1
37 Henrik Sedin 82.8
38 Clint Smith* 82.6
39 Mats Sundin 82.3
40 Doug Gilmour 82.3
41 Pierre Turgeon 82.3
42 Pavel Datsyuk 82.0
43 Mike Modano 81.7
44 Jeremy Roenick 81.5
45 Ted Kennedy 81.5
46 Sergei Fedorov 81
47 Evgeni Malkin 80.7
48 Bernie Nicholls 80.3
49 Cooney Weiland 79.4
50 Pat LaFontaine 78.8
51 Hooley Smith 78.8
52 Doug Weight 78.6
53 Brad Richards 78.4
54 Eric Staal 78.4
55 Phil Watson 78.1
56 Alexei Yashin 77.6
57 Bernie Federko 77.3
58 Vincent Lecavalier 77.2
59 Henrik Zetterberg 76.7
60 Joe Primeau 76
61 Don McKenney 75.8
62 Jacques Lemaire 75.5
63 Jason Spezza 75.2
64 Phil Goyette 74.9
65 Vincent Damphousse 74.2
66 Bill Thoms 74.2
67 Marc Savard 73.9
68 Neil Colville 73.2
69 Dave Keon 73.2
70 Rod Brind'Amour 72.8
* wartime star

Comments:
  • None of MacKay, Fredrickson, Keats, or Petrov played in the NHL during the specified time frame.
  • Larionov and Nedomansky were not in their primes in the NHL, so I don't think posting their numbers would be useful.
  • Denis Savard should probably be added this round, based on his offense at the NHL level.
  • Remember, this is based off a player's best 7 years. So a player like Mats Sundin, who had many more than 7 good years will likely be underrated somewhat.
  • The reason for Pat Lafontaine's low score? He didn't even play 7 full seasons in his prime due to injuries. He's clearly better offensively than this number shows, but he's seriously lacking in the games played at a high level.
  • Joe Primeau has already been discussed - 3 excellent seasons (>90% score), 2 solid seasons, and 2 write-off seasons (<50% score) form his 7 year career.
  • Zetterberg has something of a Fedorov/Keon thing, where he regularly upped his offensive value in the playoffs. Only 1 Cup as a key player though.
  • Lemaire also upped his offensive value in the playoffs, but his regular season numbers are just dreadful, considering he spent his best years centering Steve Shutt and Guy Lafleur.

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02-04-2014, 03:08 AM
  #7
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Some nice players here. I like LaFontaine & Zetterberg, for different reasons. LaFontaine is a Denis Savard type of player with great offense but dubious defense. Zetterberg is great overall but doesn't stand out in the regular season except for 0708.

Duke Keats is hard to place. In many instances he's described as a playmaker type of player, and while he was a very good passer he seems to have been more of a goal scorer. In the two seasons Eskimos linemate Art Gagne out-pointed Keats, he also out-assisted him. Keats also took a lot of penalties.

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02-04-2014, 03:48 AM
  #8
MadArcand
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What's everyone's take on Petrov vs. Nedomansky?

Larionov and Savard need to get in. Then maybe both of Petrov and Nedo. Rest seems like crapshoot to me, with the only given being Sundin last.

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02-04-2014, 04:55 AM
  #9
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
What's everyone's take on Petrov vs. Nedomansky?

Larionov and Savard need to get in. Then maybe both of Petrov and Nedo. Rest seems like crapshoot to me, with the only given being Sundin last.
Perhaps the best way is to compare their international accolades? This is what I have:

Nedomansky
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring in the 1972 Olympics (behind Valeri Kharlamov of the stacked USSR)
  • World Championship Directorate Best Forward (1974)
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)
Larionov
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring at the 1988 Olympics (behind linemate Krutov)
  • World Championship All-Star Forward (1983, 1986)
Petrov
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

____________

Here is their domestic All-Star recognition:

Nedomansky: CSSR league All Star RW (1969). CSSR All Star C (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974).

1969 was the first year the CSSR had All-Star teams, and Nedomansky was already 25 by then. He defected to North America after the 1974 season. So that's 5/6 years an All-Star with only Jaroslav Holik beating him for the center spot once. Clearly Nedomansky was the best center in Czechoslovakia before he defected.

Petrov: USSR league 1st Team All Star C (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979).

Maltsev had the 1st Team Spot in 1970, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1978, 1980, and 1981. Kharlamov had it in 1976 when apparently they didn't care about positions.

Larionov: USSR league All Star C (1983, 1986, 1987, 1988).

Similar to Petrov on paper, but much worse competition - he lost out to Nikolai Drozdetsky in 1984 and Anatoli Semenov in 1985. On the other hand, Larionov had just come off 3 straight All-Star nods when the Iron Curtain began to fall.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-04-2014 at 05:25 AM.
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Old
02-04-2014, 06:19 AM
  #10
Canadiens1958
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Jacques Lemaire

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here are the VsX 7 year scores (1926-2013), this post, with the exception of using Hockey Outsider's calculation to update scores to include last year.

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2013):

Rank Player Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 155.1
2 Phil Esposito 123.4
3 Mario Lemieux 120.4
4 Jean Beliveau 108.9
5 Stan Mikita 108.1
6 Bill Cowley* 103.5
7 Marcel Dionne 103.2
8 Howie Morenz 102.8
9 Joe Sakic 97.9
10 Frank Boucher 95.4
11 Elmer Lach* 95.4
12 Max Bentley* 94.9
13 Steve Yzerman 93.5
14 Bryan Trottier 93.5
15 Joe Thornton 93.3
16 Syl Apps Sr 93
17 Peter Forsberg 90.9
18 Nels Stewart 90.5
19 Sidney Crosby 90.5
20 Adam Oates 90.2
21 Marty Barry 89.9
22 Mark Messier 89.5
23 Norm Ullman 88.7
24 Jean Ratelle 88.5
25 Peter Stastny 88.3
26 Sid Abel 87.8
27 Bobby Clarke 87.6
28 Ron Francis 87.6
29 Milt Schmidt 87.5
30 Henri Richard 86.2
31 Dale Hawerchuk 85.9
32 Denis Savard 85.4
33 Eric Lindros 85.4
34 Alex Delvecchio 84.9
35 Gilbert Perreault 84.6
36 Darryl Sittler 84.1
37 Henrik Sedin 82.8
38 Clint Smith* 82.6
39 Mats Sundin 82.3
40 Doug Gilmour 82.3
41 Pierre Turgeon 82.3
42 Pavel Datsyuk 82.0
43 Mike Modano 81.7
44 Jeremy Roenick 81.5
45 Ted Kennedy 81.5
46 Sergei Fedorov 81
47 Evgeni Malkin 80.7
48 Bernie Nicholls 80.3
49 Cooney Weiland 79.4
50 Pat LaFontaine 78.8
51 Hooley Smith 78.8
52 Doug Weight 78.6
53 Brad Richards 78.4
54 Eric Staal 78.4
55 Phil Watson 78.1
56 Alexei Yashin 77.6
57 Bernie Federko 77.3
58 Vincent Lecavalier 77.2
59 Henrik Zetterberg 76.7
60 Joe Primeau 76
61 Don McKenney 75.8
62 Jacques Lemaire 75.5
63 Jason Spezza 75.2
64 Phil Goyette 74.9
65 Vincent Damphousse 74.2
66 Bill Thoms 74.2
67 Marc Savard 73.9
68 Neil Colville 73.2
69 Dave Keon 73.2
70 Rod Brind'Amour 72.8
* wartime star

Comments:
[*]Lemaire also upped his offensive value in the playoffs, but his regular season numbers are just dreadful, considering he spent his best years centering Steve Shutt and Guy Lafleur. [/LIST]
Quite inaccurate.

Led the Canadiens in scoring, 95 points, during the 1972-73 season without Shutt and Lafleur as linemates, 90+ points in 1974-75, again
without Shutt and Lafleur. Far from dreadful. Impressive would be a better description.

A lot of noise about Petrov and Larionov.

Lemaire and Larionov could be viewed as identical twins in terms of overall hockey skills, defense and intelligence. Lemaire had a better shot and more offense. Larionov had a longevity edge. Lemaire did lead the Canadiens in scoring. Did Larionov manage to lead CSKA in scoring?

Lemaire and Petrov. Lemaire was a better skater, with a better shot. Petrov probably had the best shot of any Soviet center but not Lemaire quality.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lemaija01.html

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02-04-2014, 08:02 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On the home stretch - 3 rounds left. I think it might be time to think about who are must-adds on our list.

My thoughts -

1) Petrov and Nedomansky have to be on our list, probably this round. I don't even have to check to know that they were the top 2 from my round 1 list who are yet to be added. I'm planning on focusing my energies on Nedomasky this round. When I was doing research as to whether he was primarily a center or a right wing in Czechoslovakia, I came around more than one report by North American scouts that called him the best player in Europe in the early 70s - quite impressive when you consider his competition. I really hope that google archives' current partial lack of functionality won't prevent me from finding them again and posting for us to evaluate. And Nedomansky was something like Larionov in that he came to North America after his prime and played very well, first in the WHA, then in the NHL where he actually led a bad Red Wings team in scoring once season.

2) Larionov and Savard have to be in our top 60 somewhere, though I have Larionov below Petrov and I'll have him below Nedomansky if what I suspect about Nedomansky's peak in Europe holds up.

3) If Fredrickson and MacKay are indeed the "next best" PCHA centers after Taylor (and I think they probably were), they need to make our top 60 somewhere.

4) Duke Keats needs to make our top 60, probably not this round, but in one of the last 2 rounds. Impact player in the NHA before the First World War, lost prime years to fight the war, came back and rather than rejoining the NHA, he became the face of the "Big 4" prairie league which would later turn into the WCHL and attract players such as Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, and Eddie Shore. Basically owned the WCHL All Star center spot until Fredrickson stole it from him once, then went back to the NHL and finished 9th and 10th in scoring in a consolidated NHL in his age 31 and 32 seasons. Excellent longevity as an impact player for a player of that era, especially for one who played a game as physical as Keats.

I'll listen to arguments for adding any of the other candidates, even over some of the ones I listed above if the case is good enough. But right now, I don't think it would be a travesty if any of the others missed our top 60.
I don't understand the "this player must make the list " argument. I thought this was this to be the opinion of the people voting, not the " this player must make Our list to make it look legit". Out of the players in the above list, I think that Savard, Lemaire, Nedomansky are shoo-ins for Me. Lafontaine isn't a top 60 Center in My eyes and neither is Sundin.

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02-04-2014, 08:08 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Petrov is a shoo-in.

Zetterberg? Someone make the case that he should be this far behind datsyuk. If he got in this round in the top 2, it would still be too late. A slightly worse offensive performer (but with more goals), tends to be better in the playoffs, a leader, more physical (yet clean), and by some accounts no worse defensively. Less visually appealing, though (does that matter?)
Even though I skewered him for his lack of longevity in the ATD (vs Bucyk I think it was so duh), Hank is a wonderful hockey player.

Datsyuk is more decorated but I'm not sure if he is a better hockey player, either.

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02-04-2014, 09:12 AM
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Jacques Lemaire was a very good big time player but is he i hall of famer.Who was Lafleur playing with its a joke.Check Lafleur assists to Lemaire remember Lafleur is the winger.What would Lafleur pts totals had been if he played with a great centerman-off the charts.Lafleur led team in assists 8 times.1979-lamaire missed 25 games what did lafleur do-had 129 pts and led next player shutt by 52 pts.Lemaire is one of the most overated players ever.

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02-04-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Jacques Lemaire was a very good big time player but is he i hall of famer.Who was Lafleur playing with its a joke.Check Lafleur assists to Lemaire remember Lafleur is the winger.What would Lafleur pts totals had been if he played with a great centerman-off the charts.Lafleur led team in assists 8 times.1979-lamaire missed 25 games what did lafleur do-had 129 pts and led next player shutt by 52 pts.Lemaire is one of the most overated players ever.
Still good enough to have a slightly better ppg that season than named Shutt, in this Lemaire's last season while Lafleur was near his peak.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 02-04-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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02-04-2014, 09:56 AM
  #15
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Can somebody tell me why Denis Savard is better than Darryl Sittler? Offensively, they're very close, and I'd put Sittler ahead in terms of grit and leadership. Savard has a better reputation as a playoff performer, but Sittler was strong in his own right in the playoffs during his prime.

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02-04-2014, 10:18 AM
  #16
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I'm not sure whether I'm going to have Zetterberg in my top-8 this round, but the more I look at his resume the more I admire his career against his contemporaries.

The following is a look at post-2005-lockout centers. This somewhat arbitrarily cuts off Zetterberg's first two seasons in the NHL, which were in '03 and '04.

PlayerGPGAPPPGRecognitionRank on top-60 list
Joe Thornton6731795747531.121xHart, 1xRoss, 1x1AS, 2x2AS#34
Sidney Crosby5262654757401.411xHart, 1xRoss, 1x1AS, 1x2AS#22
Henrik Sedin6731475396861.021xHart, 1xRoss, 2x1AS?
Pavel Datsyuk6052174286451.073xSelke, 1x2AS#43
Eric Staal6602713696400.971x2AS?
Henrik Zetterberg6172423916331.031xSmythe, 1x2AS?
Evgeni Malkin5032333826151.221xHart, 2x Ross, 1xSmythe, 3x1AS#40
Ryan Getzlaf6101794065850.96 ?
Jason Spezza5512133715841.06 ?


Basically, if you look at guys who aren't already ranked, Zetterberg is either a better scorer or a MUCH better defender than all of them, and he has a better playoff resume by a significant margin.

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02-04-2014, 10:31 AM
  #17
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How does Zetterbergs time as a winger count here?

I usually just lurk and watch your masterminds do the work, but I'm legitimately curious how someone we can "confirm" have played wing affect the rankings as a center

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02-04-2014, 10:47 AM
  #18
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vs Flyers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Can somebody tell me why Denis Savard is better than Darryl Sittler? Offensively, they're very close, and I'd put Sittler ahead in terms of grit and leadership. Savard has a better reputation as a playoff performer, but Sittler was strong in his own right in the playoffs during his prime.
Daryl Sittler had outstanding playoffs against Bobby Clarke and the Flyers. One of the rare centers who did. If Daryl Sittler had similar regular season performances and playoff performances against all the other teams and centers in the NHL, Sittler would have been ranked many rounds ago, perhaps in the top 10.

But he did not and at times was very mortal.

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02-04-2014, 10:55 AM
  #19
the edler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3) If Fredrickson and MacKay are indeed the "next best" PCHA centers after Taylor (and I think they probably were), they need to make our top 60 somewhere.

4) Duke Keats needs to make our top 60, probably not this round, but in one of the last 2 rounds. Impact player in the NHA before the First World War, lost prime years to fight the war, came back and rather than rejoining the NHA, he became the face of the "Big 4" prairie league which would later turn into the WCHL and attract players such as Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, and Eddie Shore. Basically owned the WCHL All Star center spot until Fredrickson stole it from him once, then went back to the NHL and finished 9th and 10th in scoring in a consolidated NHL in his age 31 and 32 seasons. Excellent longevity as an impact player for a player of that era, especially for one who played a game as physical as Keats.
What's funny about the trio MacKay, Fredrickson & Keats is that Fredrickson got traded, more or less straight up, for both Keats & MacKay within two years when all three of them were veterans in the NHL. All of them were basically the same age too, MacKay born in 1894 and Fredrickson & Keats in 1895, so the trade value between the players then seems to have been pretty equal. Only thing missing in the puzzle is a MacKay for Keats deal.

1] First Fredrickson, along with teammate Harry Meeking [LW], got traded from the Detroit Cougars to the Boston Bruins for Duke Keats and Archie Briden [LW] in January 1927.

2] In December 1928 Fredrickson got traded from the Boston Bruins to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Mickey MacKay and 12 000 $. So the Pirates had to put in some dollars too. My sources tells me it's something like 144 000 $ today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by florida pwnthers View Post
How does Zetterbergs time as a winger count here?

I usually just lurk and watch your masterminds do the work, but I'm legitimately curious how someone we can "confirm" have played wing affect the rankings as a center
I think that when he played with Datsyuk, Datsyuk was as much of a winger as Z. I think Z took the faceoffs at least. But Red Wings fans probably knows this better than me.

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02-04-2014, 10:55 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by florida pwnthers View Post
How does Zetterbergs time as a winger count here?

I usually just lurk and watch your masterminds do the work, but I'm legitimately curious how someone we can "confirm" have played wing affect the rankings as a center
Before the project began, we voted to treat a player's entire portfolio as valid for the purposes of this project. Zetterberg was one of the players who got a lot of attention to confirm that he was primarily a center instead of primarily a winger. At this point, his accomplishments at LW carry equal weight to his accomplishments at C.

An alternate name for the project could be "Top 60 players who were primarily centers".

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02-04-2014, 10:57 AM
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I thought adding the playoffs to your last post showed even more:

Adding to tarheelhockey's table

PlayerSeason GPGAPPPGPlayoff GPGAPPPGRecognitionRank on top-60 list
Joe Thornton6731795747531.12901663810.881xHart, 1xRoss, 1x1AS, 2x2AS#34
Sidney Crosby5262654757401.418240651051.281xHart, 1xRoss, 1x1AS, 1x2AS#22
Henrik Sedin6731475396861.02681444580.851xHart, 1xRoss, 2x1AS?
Pavel Datsyuk6052174286451.071033358910.883xSelke, 1x2AS#43
Eric Staal6602713696400.97431924431.001x2AS?
Henrik Zetterberg6172423916331.0310752571091.021xSmythe, 1x2AS?
Evgeni Malkin5032333826151.22833661971.171xHart, 2x Ross, 1xSmythe, 3x1AS#40
Ryan Getzlaf6101794065850.96692138590.86 ?
Jason Spezza5512133715841.06501634501.00 ?

The only playoff missing notable is Briere: 102 48-58-106 1.04

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02-04-2014, 11:10 AM
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Can somebody tell me why Denis Savard is better than Darryl Sittler? Offensively, they're very close, and I'd put Sittler ahead in terms of grit and leadership. Savard has a better reputation as a playoff performer, but Sittler was strong in his own right in the playoffs during his prime.
I can't tell you.

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02-04-2014, 11:22 AM
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Can somebody tell me why Denis Savard is better than Darryl Sittler? Offensively, they're very close, and I'd put Sittler ahead in terms of grit and leadership. Savard has a better reputation as a playoff performer, but Sittler was strong in his own right in the playoffs during his prime.
Leadership ? What exactly separates those players in that regards ?

Grit ? Funny enough. I have them the other way around. Yet Id never invoke grit for justifying ranking Savard over Sittler.

Edit - not to mention... According to work done last round, Savard and Hawerchuk are closer than their round of eligibily might suggest. To the point its arguable whether Hawerchuk should've appeared first at all. This work wasn't mine, so somebody else might want to contribute in that regard.


Last edited by MXD: 02-04-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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02-04-2014, 11:40 AM
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Can somebody update the list of years/players in the top-60 ?

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02-04-2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I don't understand the "this player must make the list " argument. I thought this was this to be the opinion of the people voting, not the " this player must make Our list to make it look legit". Out of the players in the above list, I think that Savard, Lemaire, Nedomansky are shoo-ins for Me. Lafontaine isn't a top 60 Center in My eyes and neither is Sundin.
My opinion is that the players I listed (Nedomansky, Petrov, Savard, Fredrickson, MacKay, Keats, Larionov) should make our list.

Leaning towards Sundin, Sittler, and Zetterberg also making it based on comments above, but it's still early this round, and obviously all 10 players can't be voted in now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Can somebody tell me why Denis Savard is better than Darryl Sittler? Offensively, they're very close, and I'd put Sittler ahead in terms of grit and leadership. Savard has a better reputation as a playoff performer, but Sittler was strong in his own right in the playoffs during his prime.
I guess Sittler might be closer than we thought. Anyway, this is kind of a lame hockey-reference comparison, but I think it tends to show a small but clear advantage for Savard:

Sittler points finishes: 3rd, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th
Savard points finishes: 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 7th

Sittler PPG finishes: 3rd, 4th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 10th
Sittler PPG finishes: 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th

Sittler All Star Games: 1975, 1978, 1980, 1983
Savard All Star Games: 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1991, 1996

And as shown above, Savard has a small advantage in VsX-7 year score.

Basically, it's a lot of little things in Savard's favor, though perhaps you indirectly made the case that Sittler could be considered a viable add NEXT round.

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