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Old
02-06-2007, 12:26 AM
  #26
xander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Again total pipe dream from my perspective, but I'd be lying if I didn't say he was along the lines of what I had in mind.

Now if you move Prucha, Montoya and first for him you could essentially have

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Dawes-Horton-Shanahan
Cullen-Avery-Callahan/Hossa
Hollweg/Hossa-Betts-Ortmeyer

And you still would probably have the money to go out and improve the defense.

But again it never works out as easily as it does in your own mind.
Horton's played RW for the majority of the time that he's spent in the NHL. I don't know if that meens he's incapable of playing a good center, but it's not what he's been doing of late.

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02-06-2007, 12:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Again total pipe dream from my perspective, but I'd be lying if I didn't say he was along the lines of what I had in mind.

Now if you move Prucha, Montoya and first for him you could essentially have

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Dawes-Horton-Shanahan
Cullen-Avery-Callahan/Hossa
Hollweg/Hossa-Betts-Ortmeyer

And you still would probably have the money to go out and improve the defense.

But again it never works out as easily as it does in your own mind.
it surprises me that you're willing to deal all that for Horton

imo you add another prospect to that deal and you probably have enough to get a franchise caliber young forward.. problem is one being available

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02-06-2007, 12:30 AM
  #28
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Wouldn't really see that as a problem. His transition was based more out of who the team had rather than an inability to handle the position. You essentially had Jokinen, Weiss and others on that roster.

I think by nature he's a little bit more of a playmaker and I think scoring wingers would really being out the best in his game as a center.

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02-06-2007, 12:31 AM
  #29
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Hollweg - Avery - Orr : The "We feel like playing shorthanded next shift" line.

All kidding aside, I am looking forward to Avery. He might just add some toughness we've been lacking. Is he the solution, hell no, but he's not going to make things worse.

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02-06-2007, 12:32 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
it surprises me that you're willing to deal all that for Horton

imo you add another prospect to that deal and you probably have enough to get a franchise caliber young forward.. problem is one being available
those of us that are willing to pay that much (myself included) would do so because we believe that Horton is a franchise caliber young forward.

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02-06-2007, 12:35 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
those of us that are willing to pay that much (myself included) would do so because we believe that Hornton is a franchise caliber young forward.
maybe he will be one day but he certainly hasn't been to this point and imo i don't think he will ever be on the level of the ones i'm about to name

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...e?statsId=3343

when i say young franchise caliber forward i mean gaborik, richards, lecavilier

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02-06-2007, 12:36 AM
  #32
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it surprises me that you're willing to deal all that for Horton

imo you add another prospect to that deal and you probably have enough to get a franchise caliber young forward.. problem is one being available
I think that's probably about right.

Montoya is a yet unproven NHL goalie, Prucha is a nice second line winger and the first is entirely up to what Florida spends it on.

Horton has shown he's a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point center on some bad Florida teams. With good linemates, I think you're looking more at a 25-30 goal player and 70+ points. Realistically that's right up there with the so-called "franchise caliber" young forwards in the game and what they did at 20-22.

The key thing with Horton is also the upside. At 21, you're talking about a guy who is still several years away from really filling out into his game.

Yeah you could go out and get a player who is already there (maybe) but you can kiss any salary cap room goodbye and I personally don't think a second line winger who can't stay on his feet, an AHL goalie and a first round lands that guy.

The thing with Horton is he's already a pretty good player, but he's still so young. He's also the perfect type of player you want learning from a guy like Shanahan. As I said in another thread, forget Hall, Ward, Jessiman or those guys. Horton is the kind of player who could REALLY get something out of being on the same team as Shanny.

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02-06-2007, 12:42 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
maybe he will be one day but he certainly hasn't been to this point and imo i don't think he will ever be on the level of the ones i'm about to name

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...e?statsId=3343

when i say young franchise caliber forward i mean gaborik, richards, lecavilier
Up until this year LeCavilier has always been more about the potential than the result.

He was essentially a guy who was a 25-30 goal, 65-75 point player. And keep in mind that was on a lightening team with some pretty good offensive help and a team that won a cup.

Richards is another one who outside of last year averaged about 23 goals and 65 some odd points. Not all that far off from Horton and on a better team.

Gaborik is certainly more offensivly talented and dynamic but is now going on 4 years since playing a full schedule and that doesn't say much about a physical side.

I think the only thing that is really a gap between those players is perception.

The Lightening have been successful and their trip of VL, Richards and Marty have grabbed attention and Gaborik is fire on ice when healthy.

Horton is toiling for a forgotten team in Florida who hasn't gone anywhere in a very long time.

I also think he's a different type of player than the guys we're comparing him to.

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02-06-2007, 12:50 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Up until this year LeCavilier has always been more about the potential than the result.

He was essentially a guy who was a 25-30 goal, 65-75 point player. And keep in mind that was on a lightening team with some pretty good offensive help and a team that won a cup.

Richards is another one who outside of last year averaged about 23 goals and 65 some odd points. Not all that far off from Horton and on a better team.

Gaborik is certainly more offensivly talented and dynamic but is now going on 4 years since playing a full schedule and that doesn't say much about a physical side.

I think the only thing that is really a gap between those players is perception.

The Lightening have been successful and their trip of VL, Richards and Marty have grabbed attention and Gaborik is fire on ice when healthy.

Horton is toiling for a forgotten team in Florida who hasn't gone anywhere in a very long time.

I also think he's a different type of player than the guys we're comparing him to.
you're right about VL but i think the major difference between the two is that VL was always a prodigy type prospect/young player that had exceptional talent and other tangible qualities, even intangible.. it just never came together.. i don't think horton is the same as far as that goes.. i think he will be a very good player but not on the level of the ones i named

as for gaborik.. his only drawback is those injuries, and if its enough to scare you then hes not someone to target but you said it yourself he's easily the more dynamic player

maybe i'm not giving him enough credit.. so perception is the problem but i don't think he's worth all that at this point and if we are willing to deal so much for a player like that, might as well go the extra mile to get someone thats already there

he is a different player but i am making the comparison more of quality/value than how he fits the team.. i'd agree being the type of player he is it makes him very attractive to this team, but really any of those guys would have the same effect

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02-06-2007, 12:57 AM
  #35
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I thought it was a ok move. Rangers did not give up a lot. Well, they gave up a ok prospect and a prospect that may never cross over to play in North America.

Avery 2nd center? A lot of Devils, NYI, Flyers and Pittsburgh fans hope he is lol.. No, he is not a 2nd line center more like 3rd line wing..

I wonder if Rangers will like him more then Barnaby.. Some people say he is a cancer in locker room. Well, some LA fans think he is. Saw him a few times this season. Makes one good play makes 3 dumb plays.. It all depends how he is used I guess. He is a hard worker

Can't wait to see him against Eager and Fedoruk


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Old
02-06-2007, 01:02 AM
  #36
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maybe i'm not giving him enough credit.. so perception is the problem but i don't think he's worth all that at this point and if we are willing to deal so much for a player like that, might as well go the extra mile to get someone thats already there
who? who is already there and available?

Franchise talents don't get traded unless there are questions surrounding them, The guys that 'are already there' arn't available. And even if you could put together a trade that was equal in value, a team's not going to move it's franchise guy because of the risk.

Horton has some questions surrounding him, but the're rather minor (injury, good but not great production on a poor team.) He's already a good player at the age of 21, which is impressive for a big guy.

The only other franchise level talent that I could really see being available is Zherdev, and he's got a good number more questions than Horton.

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02-06-2007, 01:12 AM
  #37
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you're right about VL but i think the major difference between the two is that VL was always a prodigy type prospect/young player that had exceptional talent and other tangible qualities, even intangible.. it just never came together.. i don't think horton is the same as far as that goes.. i think he will be a very good player but not on the level of the ones i named
I dunno Hall, Horton is a really talented kid. I mean he was taken third overall in one heck of a deep draft and up until that season (broken jaw) was seen as potentially the first overall pick.

I don't think he had the hype coming in that VL did, but I think he's a different player.

But when you really look at it, he's really not that far off from a lot of those talents despite not playing in nearly the situation they are.

Quote:
as for gaborik.. his only drawback is those injuries, and if its enough to scare you then hes not someone to target but you said it yourself he's easily the more dynamic player
Well it is a concern, but in fairness I can't see Minnesota moving him for Prucha, Montoya and a first. If healthy I think you're talking about Staal.

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maybe i'm not giving him enough credit.. so perception is the problem but i don't think he's worth all that at this point and if we are willing to deal so much for a player like that, might as well go the extra mile to get someone thats already there
But the problem is that a young player is only traded if there is a question mark. Florida isn't likely to trade him if everything is peaches and cream, ya know?

I think when you start talking about the other names you mentioned (because they are older and more of a finished product) you can automatically throw in a name like Staal into trade talk. And while yeah that's only one extra player, that's a heck of a difference in a trade.

Quote:
he is a different player but i am making the comparison more of quality/value than how he fits the team.. i'd agree being the type of player he is it makes him very attractive to this team, but really any of those guys would have the same effect
But the thing is they aren't available and I think if you're looking to trade for VL at this point you're extra mile is probably a guy like Staal. That's a pretty big mile.

I mean look at the end of the day Horton doesn't come in with the expectations of a guy like say Crosby or Malkin, but I also think those guys have a much higher asking price.

We might disagree on this, but for me I don't think Prucha, Montoya and a first is too unreasonable. Even as is Horton is the best individual player in that deal and that's if he's only a 30 goal, 65-70 point player. Factor in potential and the setting he'd be in (playing with Shanahan) and to me it's a real bonus.

But so much comes down to setting as well. I don't think Horton is as valuable without Shanahan as he would be with him just like I don't think VL, Richards or St. Louis are as valuable without being on the same team.

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02-06-2007, 06:17 AM
  #38
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I drool at the thought of bringing in Horton. And, the package of Prucha/Montoya would be fine with me. (I might hesitate adding the #1, and would probably prefer seeing the Rangers add a prospect instead, but if that was the deal-breaker, I'd relent.) Trading for Horton is the type of deal we've discussed since this rebuilding phase began - having enough quality assets and depth to make a move for a player who has potential franchise talent when he becomes available.

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02-06-2007, 07:28 AM
  #39
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A Horton deal is a summer deal.More teams will be players

At this point,the Rangers acquiring a 2nd line center(as a rental) is like Rosie O'Donnell getting a face lift.It's too late and it's doesn't really matter

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02-06-2007, 10:02 AM
  #40
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Realistic alternatives for addressing the 2nd line center spot

With it now looking like the NYR's will be buyers at the deadline(did anybody really doubt it?) the lack of production from the 2nd line is still a major shortcoming but with their recent play I really can't see going all out and give up some really valuable assets in pursuing a Forsberg so I just wanted to see who others thought would be a viable alternative to help address the season-long 2nd line center woes and who at the same time wouldn't be an arm and a leg acqusition.

If I were Slats I'd have to guys in mind that will both be moved in all likelyhood and wouldn't have NYR fans up in arms.

1st I'd take a long hard look at what Stumpel would cost to acquire for the stretch run because I think he'd be perfect b/w Shanny and Prucha because he is a pure playmaker and he's played well since the halfway point last yr and looks good this yr after a terrible 1st half last yr where it looked like he was done.

This yr he's 53gp-15g-26a=41pts which is on pace for 82gp-23g-40a=63pts.

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Prucha-Stumpel-Shanny
Hossa/Hall-Cullen-Avery
Hollweg-Betts-Ortmeyer

I'm sure there will be others who look into his services but the return would probrably be one deemed acceptable to most NYR fans I would think and I do think he could be a valuable addition in the season long quest for some 2nd line scoring.

The other guy I'd take a run at but only on the extreme cheap is bring back York for the stretch run and with his value at such a low point I think it would be worth the gamble that he could regain his form with a change of scenery and a spot centering Shanny.

Anybody else have some potential targets that wouldn't gut us at the deadline?

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02-06-2007, 10:04 AM
  #41
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we're not buyers, we're not sellers either, we're not making the playoffs.

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02-06-2007, 10:05 AM
  #42
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A guy who would come dirt cheap for the type of skills he has is Sergei Samsonov. He's played center and wing right? I could see NYR rationalize a deadline deal for him ala Sykora. I don't really want him, but just throwing a name out there.

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02-06-2007, 10:21 AM
  #43
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I see this move as stamping we are sellers. This is a move for the future. Avery is 26. I think it also sets up the Rangers to start dumping other players. Nylander for one. Hollweg another. I hope they are smart and sell high on Rosival. I'm not sold they will shop Shanny around. He's a good leader. Something Jagr knows nothing about. They would also be wise to clear up another roster spot and shop Betts to a team looking for a 4th line PK, defensive forward.

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02-06-2007, 10:21 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JR#9 View Post
With it now looking like the NYR's will be buyers at the deadline(did anybody really doubt it?) the lack of production from the 2nd line is still a major shortcoming but with their recent play I really can't see going all out and give up some really valuable assets in pursuing a Forsberg so I just wanted to see who others thought would be a viable alternative to help address the season-long 2nd line center woes and who at the same time wouldn't be an arm and a leg acqusition.

If I were Slats I'd have to guys in mind that will both be moved in all likelyhood and wouldn't have NYR fans up in arms.

1st I'd take a long hard look at what Stumpel would cost to acquire for the stretch run because I think he'd be perfect b/w Shanny and Prucha because he is a pure playmaker and he's played well since the halfway point last yr and looks good this yr after a terrible 1st half last yr where it looked like he was done.

This yr he's 53gp-15g-26a=41pts which is on pace for 82gp-23g-40a=63pts.

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Prucha-Stumpel-Shanny
Hossa/Hall-Cullen-Avery
Hollweg-Betts-Ortmeyer

I'm sure there will be others who look into his services but the return would probrably be one deemed acceptable to most NYR fans I would think and I do think he could be a valuable addition in the season long quest for some 2nd line scoring.

The other guy I'd take a run at but only on the extreme cheap is bring back York for the stretch run and with his value at such a low point I think it would be worth the gamble that he could regain his form with a change of scenery and a spot centering Shanny.

Anybody else have some potential targets that wouldn't gut us at the deadline?
The two guys I have been thinking about all along that MIGHT fit the Rangers need without them paying too much are SMOLINSKI and STUMPEL...If we go after a vet C, I think it will be either one...

But then we get Sean AVERY and it sets up three possibilities (IMO)..

1) We still add a vet Calong the lines of Smolinski and Stumpel

2) The trade for Avery is only a precursor to a bigger deal that will use up more current Ranges in the trade--There is alot of talk about NATHAN HORTON..And he would cost big time...

3) After watching the past few games, we need a D-MAN BADDDDDD...Maybe the Rangers stay pat up fornt now and instead make a trade for a needed D-man...

Next few weeks should be interesting..

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02-06-2007, 10:26 AM
  #45
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I see this move as stamping we are sellers. This is a move for the future. Avery is 26. I think it also sets up the Rangers to start dumping other players. Nylander for one. Hollweg another. I hope they are smart and sell high on Rosival. I'm not sold they will shop Shanny around. He's a good leader. Something Jagr knows nothing about. They would also be wise to clear up another roster spot and shop Betts to a team looking for a 4th line PK, defensive forward.
Betts was just signed to an extension, he's a great 4th line center, and out best on faceoffs, WHY dump him. Dump holwegg??????? he's the only guy on the team who consistanly hits, and isn't given enough minutes to show that he can do more. He's a character player, if you watched at all last season, our roster was full of character players, that builds chemistry, that wins games. Dump Nylander??? OK, mine as well get rid of Jagr too.?????????? Sell high on Rozival, our best D man right now, man what are you on?

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02-06-2007, 10:29 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post

Next few weeks should be interesting..
I don't think so. Trading is done. Avery is your 2nd line C. Shanny was advocating for him.

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02-06-2007, 10:40 AM
  #47
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I don't think so. Trading is done. Avery is your 2nd line C. Shanny was advocating for him.
Like I said up above, could be...Butthere will also be a search for a competent D-man...

And by all acounts, SHANNY wasn;t advocating for Avery...but Maloney and Sather were actively looking at him and asked Shanny's opinion...

Probably didn't ask Jagr though..

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02-06-2007, 10:52 AM
  #48
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Jagr-Forsberg-Shanny
Straka-Nylander-Prucha
Ortmeyer-Cullen-Avery
Hollweg-Betts-Krog

Reserves - Dawes, Ibister, Callahan

E Brewer - Roszival
Tyutin- Ward
Pock - Rachunek

Reserve - Girardi

H Lundquist
A Montoya

Trades:
  1. P Forsberg for Nr 1 pick, Immonen, Hall and Jessiman
  2. E Brewer for Nr 2 pick, M Malik, C Orr, minor league guy
  3. Nr 3 pick (Atlanta) - M Hossa
  4. Nr 2/Nr 3 pick (one of:Vancouver, LA, Carolina, Colorodo) for K Weekes

See - that was easy...
This is not gonna happen though
But the sacrifice would be relatively small. And the cap space is there (provided Ozo is dumped)
And the position to resign Shanny, Brewer and Nylander + a UFA center in the offseason would be plausible
No too much youth lost here either
But - this is not going to happen I think...
Because they would then nonetheless miss the playoffs by a game or so. And Forsberg would get injured...

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02-06-2007, 10:50 PM
  #49
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Introducing...sean Avery

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02-06-2007, 11:00 PM
  #50
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Introducing...sean Avery
Introducing April tee times.

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