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Game #57 Philadelphia Flyers @ San Jose Sharks 3 Feb 2014 7:30 pm PST CSNCa

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02-05-2014, 12:33 AM
  #551
Phu
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Your usage of the word elite is loose and certainly has a double standard to it.
Which of Thornton, Burns, Marleau, Pavelski, Vlasic and Braun are not elite? What part of the statistical record tells us the Flyers aren't a lower-tier team? My discussion is entirely rational and on point, yours is your typical contrarian tripe.

Joe Thornton is a top-10 possession player in the league. Last night was his third worst outing of the year and he had bottom-10 in the league possession numbers.
Philly is a bottom-10 possession team and had numbers on par with the #1 team in the league last night. That simply does not happen without a seriously poor game by the Sharks.


Last edited by Phu: 02-05-2014 at 12:46 AM.
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02-05-2014, 12:40 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by Phu View Post
Which of Thornton, Burns, Marleau, Pavelski, Vlasic and Braun are not elite? What part of the statistical record tells us the Flyers aren't a lower-tier team? My discussion is entirely rational and on point, yours is your typical contrarian tripe.
Burns and Braun are easily not elite. Pavelski is most likely not.

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02-05-2014, 12:55 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by rgb63 View Post
Burns and Braun are easily not elite. Pavelski is most likely not.
Wrong, they are all elite players. Burns is the #13 possession player in the league, Pavelski is 34 and Braun is 36 (while facing some of the best toughest minutes among defensemen leaguewide). Pavelski is #15 in scoring in the entire league ... what the **** are you thinking?

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02-05-2014, 01:02 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Phu View Post
Wrong, they are all elite players. Burns is the #13 possession player in the league, Pavelski is 34 and Braun is 36 (while facing some of the best toughest minutes among defensemen leaguewide). Pavelski is #15 in scoring in the entire league ... what the **** are you thinking?
You're not helping your point by pulling out one specific metric when trying to show that the player is generally elite. You didn't specify anything.

Also, get back to me [us] when Pavelski is Top 15 in scoring years on end and hasn't just come off a hot streak.

How many elite players are in the NHL by your metric?

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02-05-2014, 01:08 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Phu View Post
Wrong, they are all elite players. Burns is the #13 possession player in the league, Pavelski is 34 and Braun is 36 (while facing some of the best toughest minutes among defensemen leaguewide). Pavelski is #15 in scoring in the entire league ... what the **** are you thinking?
Kunitz is 11th in scoring, okposo is 8th would you call them elite also? If so we go back to pinkfloyds saying that your term for elite is very loose.

The only true elite players this team has are thornton, marleau. And vlasic falls into an elite defensive defenseman, but vlasic falls out of elite once you count overall game.

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02-05-2014, 01:16 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by rgb63 View Post
You're not helping your point by pulling out one specific metric when trying to show that the player is generally elite. You didn't specify anything.
So if I didn't specify anything, why did you try to make that statement?

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Originally Posted by rgb63 View Post
Also, get back to me [us] when Pavelski is Top 15 in scoring years on end and hasn't just come off a hot streak.
Why make a point based on a speculated nonexistent future, when we can look at what is true right now? He's actually in a SLUMP and is still top 15. You can just watch him play and see he's elite.

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Originally Posted by rgb63 View Post
How many elite players are in the NHL by your metric?
Again, if you don't know, why are you trying to dispute? We can go with 30-40, so one or so for each team. By any measure a player that could be the best on an entire NHL team is elite.

It's not like we don't know this. We have 4 people that are legitimately 1C quality, plus Burns who is a special kind of awesome. Dude's averaging like 7 or 8 shots a game lately.

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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Kunitz is 11th in scoring, okposo is 8th would you call them elite also? If so we go back to pinkfloyds saying that your term for elite is very loose.
If you don't consider the 8th and 11th scorers in the league elite, you are being disingenuous. They are by definition elite.

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02-05-2014, 01:22 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Phu View Post
So if I didn't specify anything, why did you try to make that statement?
Typically people are talking about overall ability when no specifics are mentioned.

Going by your metrics, you missed our "elite" goalie. He's #2 in wins - must be elite then! /s

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02-05-2014, 01:24 AM
  #558
Gene Parmesan
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Originally Posted by Phu View Post
We have elite player depth. As I said earlier, we iced 4-6 elite players vs 1 for Philly. Some can have crappy games and we STILL have multiple times the elite talent. This wasn't a run of the mill off game, this was a disaster game, as mentioned by multiple sources including myself, one of the worst games of the season. That's the only way Philly blows out this team at home.



The results back up what I said in every possible way. We are head and shoulders above philly, even with the injuries, in counting stats, record, advanced stats, EVERY WAY.

Philly sucks. We had no business losing to them. End of story.
Games aren't played in metrics and with stats. The Sharks lost, move on already. Every team has these types of games. You can nitpick and complain about how they shouldn't have lost and attack others for not agreeing but the Flyers executed and played better than San Jose on Monday night.

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02-05-2014, 01:24 AM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phu View Post
So if I didn't specify anything, why did you try to make that statement?



Why make a point based on a speculated nonexistent future, when we can look at what is true right now? He's actually in a SLUMP and is still top 15. You can just watch him play and see he's elite.



Again, if you don't know, why are you trying to dispute? We can go with 30-40, so one or so for each team. By any measure a player that could be the best on an entire NHL team is elite.

It's not like we don't know this. We have 4 people that are legitimately 1C quality, plus Burns who is a special kind of awesome. Dude's averaging like 7 or 8 shots a game lately.



If you don't consider the 8th and 11th scorers in the league elite, you have your head up your ass.
Look at who those 2 players i mentioned play with. Pretty telling that both are on career years playing with the 2 best players in the nhl at the moment in crosby and tavares.

Just to bring this into more of a sharks line of thinking also. Cheechoo had an amazing season in 2005-06 which lead him to a rocket richard trophy. He had an amazing season, but does not mean that cheechoo himself was an elite player.

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02-05-2014, 01:32 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Look at who those 2 players i mentioned play with. Pretty telling that both are on career years playing with the 2 best players in the nhl at the moment in crosby and tavares.
Doesn't matter who they are playing with, elite is elite. Being among the top scorers in the league puts you there at that time, no matter what your situation. As a sharks fan who has ostensibly seen a parade of not very good players lugged around by our elite players, you should know that you don't put up elite numbers with elite players unless you yourself are playing elite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Just to bring this into more of a sharks line of thinking also. Cheechoo had an amazing season in 2005-06 which lead him to a rocket richard trophy. He had an amazing season, but does not mean that cheechoo himself was an elite player.
He was in fact an elite goalscorer, particularly that year. It didn't last long, but that doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb63 View Post
Typically people are talking about overall ability when no specifics are mentioned.

Going by your metrics, you missed our "elite" goalie. He's #2 in wins - must be elite then! /s
Wins are not as useful of a metric since they are heavily influenced by games played. Niemi has just played a ton of games. His rates aren't very good, whereas the other players' rates are indeed elite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Games aren't played in metrics and with stats. The Sharks lost, move on already. Every team has these types of games. You can nitpick and complain about how they shouldn't have lost and attack others for not agreeing but the Flyers executed and played better than San Jose on Monday night.
I'm not the one who isn't moving on. Some people are trying to rewrite history to say the result is representative of the respective teams' expected performance and that's just hogwash.

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02-05-2014, 09:00 AM
  #561
stator
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Every team has these types of games. .
Sharks have too many of these types of games, unless they are not considered an elite team. Teams that fight for the wild card or miss the playoffs altogether have lots of these games.

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