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2002 Red Wings - Best team in NHL history?

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Old
02-03-2014, 07:56 PM
  #26
TheMoreYouKnow
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And did you call the 2000 New Jersey Devils a coulda and shoulda? Their little end of the season misstep which cost them the #1 seed (by 2 points!) for the only time in a four-year block forced them to go through three 100-point teams and a 98-point team in the playoffs. Tampa Bay wasn't some what-if either; they were the #1 in their Conference and the hottest team in a league that had ten 100-point teams. Hell, if the competition in 2000 and 2004 was as poor as it was in 2002, 2000 New Jersey and 2004 Tampa Bay would be President's Trophy winners too.
New Jersey in 2000 wasn't even the #1 seed and only had the 4th best record in the league with two other teams just one point behind them, how would anyone even compare a 103 point #2 seed to a team that wins the President's Trophy by 15 points?

Also, calling 2002 "poor competition" is a pretty funny take on it, one could just as easily say it was a more balanced league among playoff contending teams. 13 teams finished between 90 and 100 points in 2002, only 5 teams did in 2000. Meanwhile 99/00 featured a true bottomfeeder in Atlanta which won only 14 games.

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02-03-2014, 09:24 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
New Jersey in 2000 wasn't even the #1 seed and only had the 4th best record in the league with two other teams just one point behind them, how would anyone even compare a 103 point #2 seed to a team that wins the President's Trophy by 15 points?

Also, calling 2002 "poor competition" is a pretty funny take on it, one could just as easily say it was a more balanced league among playoff contending teams. 13 teams finished between 90 and 100 points in 2002, only 5 teams did in 2000. Meanwhile 99/00 featured a true bottomfeeder in Atlanta which won only 14 games.
So we're going to ignore the whole 26 teams with a better points percentage thing to rag on New Jersey some more - as if that establishes 2002 Detroit being in rare company?

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02-04-2014, 07:58 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Jimi Hendrix View Post

HOFers (9): Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Jacques Lemaire, Yvan Cournoyer, Ken Dryden, Bob Gainey, Scotty Bowman (if you want to include head coaches)
Serge Savard, too...

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02-04-2014, 10:26 AM
  #29
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We had this conversation before. If all players were in their prime, DRW02 would have destroyed each and every opposition they faced (including Oilers and Canadians). At face value they were still awesome, but not exactly the greatest team ever.


Last edited by Sentinel: 02-04-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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02-04-2014, 11:53 AM
  #30
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I'm not so sure that the margin by which a team won a President's Trophy is all that crucial when you're looking at single years in isolation. The top teams tend to yo-yo from year to year, there's any number of reasons why the gap between 1st place and the others may be larger or smaller. Colorado was without Forsberg for 2001-02 for example, if he plays perhaps they win another 5 or 6 games and suddenly the gap is small.

Points-wise, the 02 Red Wings were in the same ballpark as all the other 1st place overall teams from that time period. Did the league suddenly become much more balanced and harder to dominate for one single year in 2001-02? Maybe mathematically, but conventional wisdom says otherwise.

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02-04-2014, 08:59 PM
  #31
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Like others have said, those players were past their primes. Other than Lidstrom, none of them were in their peak form in 2002.

I will say that it was the best team I ever personally saw. Furthermore, we'll probably never see such a roster again.

Also, don't forget another Hall of Famer on the team. Scotty Bowman.

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02-04-2014, 09:08 PM
  #32
Sprague Cleghorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommygunn View Post
Serge Savard, too...
Sorry, an accidental omission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMR View Post
Like others have said, those players were past their primes. Other than Lidstrom, none of them were in their peak form in 2002.

I will say that it was the best team I ever personally saw. Furthermore, we'll probably never see such a roster again.

Also, don't forget another Hall of Famer on the team. Scotty Bowman.
Yes, and don't forget HOFers Mike Ilitch, Jim Devellano and Mark Howe.

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02-05-2014, 02:46 AM
  #33
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The 97 Wings would've swept that team. The 1997 Red Wings are criminally underrated. If not for a game 1 breakdown against Colorado, after scoring first, the team would've gone 14-0 (the St. Louis series was tied before Fedorov moved back to forward and then the Wings were almost unstoppable).

Prime Fedorov, prime Shanahan, prime Lidstrom, prime Konstantinov along with an almost prime Yzerman (defensive prime) is absolute sick.


The 2002 Wings are the most overrated team in NHL history.

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02-05-2014, 02:49 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 90s Hockey fan View Post
The 97 Wings would've swept that team. The 1997 Red Wings are criminally underrated. If not for a game 1 breakdown against Colorado, after scoring first, the team would've gone 14-0 (the St. Louis series was tied before Fedorov moved back to forward and then the Wings were almost unstoppable).
And the three other loses...

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02-05-2014, 04:35 AM
  #35
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Isn't it really a moot point if all the players are not in their prime? Even if they were, like the Edmonton Oilers of the 80's, they still found ways to lose games and playoff series. The Oilers were capable of winning possibly 7 cups in a row if not for being upset in 86, the Gretzky trade in 88 and the ascension of one of the great underrated teams of all-time the 89 Flames.

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02-05-2014, 11:44 AM
  #36
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So we're going to ignore the whole 26 teams with a better points percentage thing to rag on New Jersey some more - as if that establishes 2002 Detroit being in rare company?
Anyone who followed the Wings that season knows Bowman started resting players in the last month or so of the season. Lidstrom, for instance, sat out 4 games, and the team went 0-3-2-2 to end the season (overall record of 51-17-10-4). They built up a huge lead in the standings but it was still an odd thing to do and, in hindsight, probably a mistake by Bowman because the team got off track and didn't regain their form until game 3 against Vancouver. It could have went horribly wrong but they turned things around and the rest is history.

http://www.detroithockey.net/history/schedule/2002.php

You know all this though of course since you're a big fan.

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02-05-2014, 11:50 AM
  #37
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02 Wings were easily the best team ever. They dominated at a time when the NHL was much more competitive overall than it was back in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc.

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02-05-2014, 12:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Anyone who followed the Wings that season knows Bowman started resting players in the last month or so of the season. Lidstrom, for instance, sat out 4 games, and the team went 0-3-2-2 to end the season (overall record of 51-17-10-4). They built up a huge lead in the standings but it was still an odd thing to do and, in hindsight, probably a mistake by Bowman because the team got off track and didn't regain their form until game 3 against Vancouver. It could have went horribly wrong but they turned things around and the rest is history.

http://www.detroithockey.net/history/schedule/2002.php

You know all this though of course since you're a big fan.
Actually, Nicklas Lidstrom had a groin injury. Which may have been code for spraying WD-40 on his robotic parts because Nicklas Lidstrom is an android.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSN
2002/04/10; Missed 3 games (groin).
2002/04/03; Groin, day-to-day.
2002/04/01; Missed 1 game (groin).
2002/03/30; Groin, day-to-day.

I guess I get to keep my Al the Octopus and Kozlov jersey, eh? It's a shame that my love for all-things-hockey and rational thinking gets in the way of pumping up the hometown. Best team ever! Woot. Woot.

Obviously not my favorite team (Ducks, Avalanche, Rangers, Oilers, Canadiens, Vipers, Knights - who knows who it is today...), and that primarily has to do with some widespread insecurity within the fanbase (so much so that we often see it even on HOH). After the 1990s run erased the Dead Wings era, too many of the fans think they have the best of all-time of everything: The best captain, the best two-way forward, the best defenseman, the best peaks, the best team; and they'll rush into any debate to make sure everyone knows it. It's off-putting, and it's probably Mitch Albom's fault. It's not everyone; HOH has several wonderful Red Wings fans, and some of them are among my favorite posters. But there are enough of the bad apples. And they like reminding me I'm not one of them.

This thread didn't need to happen. I blame the Detroit Free Press.

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02-05-2014, 01:29 PM
  #39
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02 Wings were easily the best team ever. They dominated at a time when the NHL was much more competitive overall than it was back in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc.
You are right that the early 00 era has more parity than the 70s, and maybe 80's (60's definitely not until post-1967). But your reasoning of 02 Wings=Best because of parity is not very logical. If I were to transport the 02 Wings back to the 70's and they dominated as much as they did in 02, would that make them less dominant simply because of the era they played in? It seems you're faulting the era they played in. The 77 Canadiens simply took the advantage like a great team is supposed to do and dominated appropriately.

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02-05-2014, 01:31 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
New Jersey in 2000 wasn't even the #1 seed and only had the 4th best record in the league with two other teams just one point behind them, how would anyone even compare a 103 point #2 seed to a team that wins the President's Trophy by 15 points?

Also, calling 2002 "poor competition" is a pretty funny take on it, one could just as easily say it was a more balanced league among playoff contending teams. 13 teams finished between 90 and 100 points in 2002, only 5 teams did in 2000. Meanwhile 99/00 featured a true bottomfeeder in Atlanta which won only 14 games.
Why are you judging a team that greatly improved at the trade deadline by their overall regular season record? They basically traded spare parts for Alexander Mogilny and Vladimir Malakhov. The same Devils without Malakhov won the East in the 2000-01 regular season.

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02-05-2014, 01:41 PM
  #41
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Why are you judging a team that greatly improved at the trade deadline by their overall regular season record? They basically traded spare parts for Alexander Mogilny and Vladimir Malakhov. The same Devils without Malakhov won the East in the 2000-01 regular season.
I'll never forget what they did to Dallas in Game 1 of the Finals. I don't know that they scored as many as that for the rest of the series, but what a statement. Two years of the best combination of offensive and defensive and physical strength in a team in a long time. I mean, what were New Jersey's weaknesses? The untapped potential of Scott Niedermayer and Martin Brodeur?

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02-05-2014, 01:57 PM
  #42
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Not the greatest team ever assembled, but in the top five without question.

Definitely the greatest Red Wing team ever assembled.

They had:

- Prime Lidstrom, which speaks for itself
- One of Chris Chelios' most successful seasons in terms of defensive performance
- Strong seasons from many third/fourth liners
- Yzerman's legendary year
- Six players with 14 or more playoff points

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02-05-2014, 02:03 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by 90s Hockey fan View Post
The 97 Wings would've swept that team. The 1997 Red Wings are criminally underrated. If not for a game 1 breakdown against Colorado, after scoring first, the team would've gone 14-0 (the St. Louis series was tied before Fedorov moved back to forward and then the Wings were almost unstoppable).

Prime Fedorov, prime Shanahan, prime Lidstrom, prime Konstantinov along with an almost prime Yzerman (defensive prime) is absolute sick.


The 2002 Wings are the most overrated team in NHL history.
One convenient omission. Hasek >>> Vernon

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02-05-2014, 02:11 PM
  #44
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Actually, Nicklas Lidstrom had a groin injury. Which may have been code for spraying WD-40 on his robotic parts because Nicklas Lidstrom is an android.
I remember people saying that Bowman was just resting Lidstrom, and others, at the time. Groin injuries also tend to occur in training camp or early on, not when everyone's already deep into the season. They probably had to make up some excuse because other teams were fighting for playoff spots and it wouldn't be fair if Lidstrom or other top players were just sitting out.

I'm not paying for archived newspaper articles but I did find these:

Quote:
Brendan Shanahan and Nick Lidstrom sat out tonight's game to rest minor injuries. Scotty Bowman plans to rest Lidstrom by leaving him home during next week's West Coast road trip
http://www.detroithockey.net/pressbo...-thrashing.php

After this game Lidstrom played April 1st against the Leafs, then sat out 3 more games due to this "groin injury" TSN cites.

Quote:
Steve Yzerman traveled out west with the team, but will probably not play. Nicklas Lidstrom and Pavel Datsyuk were both left home to rest and recover from minor bumps and bruises.
http://www.detroithockey.net/pressbo...t-the-pond.php

Quote:
Luc Robitaille and Chris Chelios were both healthy scratches for this game. Steve Yzerman is expected to return to the lineup Wednesday night against Chicago.
http://www.detroithockey.net/pressbo...chomp-down.php

Anyways, my point was that Bowman tried to rest players and coast through the end of the season and it affected their record. If you followed the team you already know this because it was fairly well documented at the time.

btw, if you really appreciated Lidstrom's play you wouldn't make light of how robotic and consistent he was, while doing it at an elite level, for so many years. Even non-Wings fans should be able to appreciate that and usually do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I guess I get to keep my Al the Octopus and Kozlov jersey, eh? It's a shame that my love for all-things-hockey and rational thinking gets in the way of pumping up the hometown. Best team ever! Woot. Woot.

Obviously not my favorite team (Ducks, Avalanche, Rangers, Oilers, Canadiens, Vipers, Knights - who knows who it is today...), and that primarily has to do with some widespread insecurity within the fanbase (so much so that we often see it even on HOH). After the 1990s run erased the Dead Wings era, too many of the fans think they have the best of all-time of everything: The best captain, the best two-way forward, the best defenseman, the best peaks, the best team; and they'll rush into any debate to make sure everyone knows it. It's off-putting, and it's probably Mitch Albom's fault. It's not everyone; HOH has several wonderful Red Wings fans, and some of them are among my favorite posters. But there are enough of the bad apples. And they like reminding me I'm not one of them.

This thread didn't need to happen. I blame the Detroit Free Press.
You were (are?) a big Avs fan and it seems to burn you up inside whenever someone says positive things about the Wings or their players. Honestly, who did you cheer for during the Avs/Wings rivalry? A rivalry like that makes it extremely difficult to cheer for both sides and you seem to consitently back Avs players while bashing Wings. It's not hard to see that the Red Wings are FAR from your favourite team so stop pretending whenever it's convenient. It's gets a little tiresome.

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02-05-2014, 02:18 PM
  #45
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One convenient omission. Hasek >>> Vernon
Career? Obviously.
Respective regular season? Obviously.
Respective playoff run? I don't know about that one.

Vernon looked to be the obvious weak point on the Detroit Red Wings, but good lord, did he ever deliver in those playoffs. Hasek had a good playoff himself, but Vernon had an extremely good run - and an incredible one when you consider the teams he was facing. One bad blowout game against Colorado cost him a .934 (he fell to .927), but he was already up 3-1 in the series at the time, so the push-back from Joe Sakic and Claude Lemieux really only affected Vernon's hockey card stats and not the inevitability of the series.

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02-05-2014, 02:21 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Mav3rick07 View Post



5117104

Also went on to win the Stanley Cup.


B.Shanahan S.Yzerman B.Hull
L.Robitaille S.Fedorov T.Holmstrom
I.Larionov P.Datsyuk K.Draper
B.Deveraux S.Avery K.Maltby

N.Lidstrom M.Dandenault
C.Chelios S.Duchesne
F.Olausson J.Fischer

D.Hasek
M.Legace
8th best. The Hockey News recently published a magazine ranking the 20 best teams ever. The '02 Wings came in 8th.

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02-05-2014, 02:22 PM
  #47
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I remember people saying that Bowman was just resting Lidstrom, and others, at the time. Groin injuries also tend to occur in training camp or early on, not when everyone's already deep into the season. They probably had to make up some excuse because other teams were fighting for playoff spots and it wouldn't be fair if Lidstrom or other top players were just sitting out.
Okay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
btw, if you really appreciated Lidstrom's play you wouldn't make light of how robotic and consistent he was, while doing it at an elite level, for so many years. Even non-Wings fans should be able to appreciate that and usually do.
Okay.

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02-05-2014, 02:28 PM
  #48
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8th best. The Hockey News recently published a magazine ranking the 20 best teams ever. The '02 Wings came in 8th.
I can't say I was a fan of that list (1992 Pittsburgh in the top-10?), but that is a fun magazine. Great articles on all 25 teams, as well as additional articles on the best season from every franchise, best international lineups (kinda), and the best college and OHL/QMJHL/WHL teams.

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02-05-2014, 02:44 PM
  #49
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Okay.

Okay.
Great rebuttal.

Posters here will figure you out if they haven't already.

Cheers.

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02-05-2014, 02:46 PM
  #50
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Not the greatest team ever assembled, but in the top five without question.

Definitely the greatest Red Wing team ever assembled.

They had:

- Prime Lidstrom, which speaks for itself
- One of Chris Chelios' most successful seasons in terms of defensive performance
- Strong seasons from many third/fourth liners
- Yzerman's legendary year
- Six players with 14 or more playoff points
Definitely not the greatest Red Wings team ever assembled. You know that they won 4 Cups in way back when, right?

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