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Look at past drafts, what pick do you question the most?

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Old
02-05-2014, 04:23 PM
  #51
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by Persona5 View Post
Poile simply gambled and lost. If we would have played in or won the Stanley Cup or re-signed Suter we wouldn't be talking about it. Poile took the man at his word and got boned along with all of the Predators fan base. This is why we boo Suter every time he touches the puck and people don't boo every time Poile is seen around the stadium.
It's not that simple. Heck, even to the public, Suter said he wanted to see roster improvements before singing a long-term contract. He said the previous off-season, he was waiting to see what Weber was doing with his contract/arbitration. If Poile or anyone thought Suter was a shoe-in to re-sign, they are kidding themselves. Even when Suter hit free agency, Poile was still being his naive self-- he said he thought Suter was "just going to take a peek" at options. This is one of the most naive GM statements I have ever heard.

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02-05-2014, 04:29 PM
  #52
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Should San Jose have traded Thornton and Marleau last summer when they didn't sign an extension? What about Perry and Getzlaf? Phaneuf, Lundqvist, Kessel?
Did those guys give indications that they weren't going to re-sign? Cause Suter did (see above).

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02-05-2014, 07:12 PM
  #53
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The funniest thing about all this is, Saint Paul is three and a half hours away from Middleton. So much for this "being close to the farm" stuff.

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02-05-2014, 08:05 PM
  #54
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You are comparing getting a couple of years of old Ronning to TBL getting St Louis for their his entire career? Conversation over.
Conversaions with you are over before they start, but no I wasn't comparing the ronning trade to the MSL trade but the Vokoun acquisition and the Sully acquisition together meant as much to us as MSL meant to tampa. Without those two our early history looks a lot more like Columbus did for ten years.

Tampa without MSL was still a really good team.

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02-05-2014, 08:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I wasn't comparing the ronning trade to the MSL trade but the Vokoun acquisition and the Sully acquisition together meant as much to us as MSL meant to tampa.
Vokoun/Sullivan meant as much as MSL acquisition?

2004 Stanley Cup Champions Tampa Lighting:

Martin St Lous: 24pts
Brad Richards (3rd rd pick): 26pts

Conversation over, again.

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02-05-2014, 09:03 PM
  #56
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I'm going to give my 2 cents on the Suter matter. This goes back to the year Hamhuis was a free agent the year before. In everyone's estimation we were going forward with the big 3 as the core of our team. At that point, we had to make a decision on Hamhuis and we decided that the playoff run was important to us, that he was an important piece at that time and if it meant losing him in the offseason so be it, we still have Weber and Suter to anchor us defensively and we couldn't afford Hamhuis at the price he was asking. Fair enough. I agree with that decision at the time.

Now we move forward and we're making a serious push for the playoffs, Suter is a main cog for us and we've added pieces to help us in the playoffs. Prognosticators thought we won the trade deadline, the re-acquisition of Radulov was a huge coupe. We flame out in the second round and Suter signs in Minny. We're all blind sided and ticked off beyond belief. What happened? How could this happen? It doesn't matter, it happened. It sucked, still does and here we are almost two years later trying to figure out what went wrong. Well, here's my take on it.

We mismanaged assets. At the time of not having Hamhuis or Suter signed long term seemed fine to me but in retrospect, I was wrong and here's why. Regardless of whether or not we were pushing for the playoffs, you still have to get something for a solid second pairing defenseman who has turned into a top pairing guy for Vancouver and an elite defender in Suter. You can lose one possibly but you can't lose both for nothing, even for playoff runs. We would've gotten something in return, possibly a top forward for Suter, possibly a lot of depth for him, possibly a top 6 even for Hamhuis.

Now here's where I think Poile really blew it. He wanted Weber and Suter as his anchors. If that's what he wanted, he should've inked them both to lifetime deals to stay here. When Suter didn't sign in that offseason and before free agency started, he should've been traded for the forward help we desperately needed and he could've then offered the money to Hamhuis that he received from Vancouver, even more if he wanted to keep him as opposed to letting him walk. To me, at worst we would've been sitting with Weber, Hamhuis, Klein and Josi as our top 4 plus whatever we would've acquired in a Suter trade. If he had wanted to go to Minny, we could've had one of their young forwards and we'd be in a lot better situation than we're in now.

Granted, hindsight is 20/20 but as some have said, you have to think outside the comfort zone or box on occasion and while it may not have been the best move at the time, we would've had other pieces coming back that would be valuable to us today as well as a pretty incredible D corp which we could've used to help bolster the forwards if we so chose to do. Instead, we've got two very good defenseman we developed with nothing to show for it but two second round playoff loses. It's easy to second guess but at the same time you have to maximize your assets short term and long term.

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02-05-2014, 11:49 PM
  #57
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Hamhuis was a money thing. Had we gotten out of the first round he would have signed here at 4.5, just like he did in Vancouver. Remember, we were still hurting then for dollars.

Suter--hindsight is 20/20. He mentioned roster improvements once that I remember, in an early season interview. I think this is being blown up a bit. Parise was going to Minn. and he had as much to do with the push for Suter as many want to lay at the feet of his wife. He led Poile on. Plain and simple. Told Poile he would give him a chance to match, which he didn't. It was business, albeit shady.

As for not moving him, again hindsight, we went all in for a cup. Traded 3-4 assets with good value for a chance at the cup. I can't ever remember a GM trading a guy in the top 5 at his position while chasing a cup.

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02-06-2014, 01:14 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Vokoun/Sullivan meant as much as MSL acquisition?

2004 Stanley Cup Champions Tampa Lighting:

Martin St Lous: 24pts
Brad Richards (3rd rd pick): 26pts

Conversation over, again.
I don't know why I am subjecting myself to your perpetually tangential remarks but Im going to give it one more shot.

Yes, Vokoun and Sully meant as much to the Preds as MSL did to Tampa, if not more. You don't win a Cup without being very good already… so without MSL, Tampa is still a very good team, and could possibly have still won the Cup(its not like they didn't have VL, Richards, Khabibulin, and a lot of other good players)

but if you go back and remove Vokoun and never trade for Sully, do you really think the Preds make the playoffs n 03-04? And if that doesn't happen, do you think we have a prayer of signing Kariya, Arnott, Dumont.. the players who made us one of the top teams in the West for the next few years?

No, it didn't make us a Cup team, but those moves had as great an impact on our trajectory as a team as MSL did on Tampa.

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02-06-2014, 01:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I don't know why I am subjecting myself to your perpetually tangential remarks but Im going to give it one more shot.

Yes, Vokoun and Sully meant as much to the Preds as MSL did to Tampa, if not more. You don't win a Cup without being very good already… so without MSL, Tampa is still a very good team, and could possibly have still won the Cup(its not like they didn't have VL, Richards, Khabibulin, and a lot of other good players)

but if you go back and remove Vokoun and never trade for Sully, do you really think the Preds make the playoffs n 03-04? And if that doesn't happen, do you think we have a prayer of signing Kariya, Arnott, Dumont.. the players who made us one of the top teams in the West for the next few years?

No, it didn't make us a Cup team, but those moves had as great an impact on our trajectory as a team as MSL did on Tampa.
OK, I get it.. so in our world of just making the playoffs, Sullivan means just as much as MSL.

If you pretend there's not world outside the 1st rd of the playoffs, than the Stanley Cup really doesn't exist. So while Martin St Louis may be playing in that world, that's a different world than we are in, therefore Sullivan = St Louis in our world.

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02-06-2014, 02:03 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Granted, hindsight is 20/20 but as some have said, you have to think outside the comfort zone or box
A GM should be judged in hindsight as it's their job to have foresight.

Plenty of people saw the writing on wall for both Hamhuis and Suter in the offseason prior them becoming UFA (I'm sure you can search back). Poile for whatever reason held on marbles and was hopefully. It was naive of him.

I do think we could have sold both Weber and Suter on signing identical long-term contracts, but they had major reservations on Poile's inability to bring in offensive talent (rightfully so). If Poile had the ability to find a guy or two like Martin St Louis as unsigned FA, or Brad Richards in the 3rd round, all the sudden they have talent to play with.

Suter and Weber called him out, said they wanted more talent here. Poile's response was another short-term, expensive, deadline splurge of Gill, Gaustad, AK. Too little too late. 13 years of not being able to obtain offensive talent isn't going to be fixed by one deadline splurge.

Again, the Predators biggest problem is Poile's inability to draft or trade for true offensive talent. Everything else is fine, but scoring goals happens to be a big part of hockey.

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02-06-2014, 02:28 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
OK, I get it.. so in our world of just making the playoffs, Sullivan means just as much as MSL.

If you pretend there's not world outside the 1st rd of the playoffs, than the Stanley Cup really doesn't exist. So while Martin St Louis may be playing in that world, that's a different world than we are in, therefore Sullivan = St Louis in our world.
I get it that you refuse to acknowledge that comparing the already mature franchise that was Tampa when the acquired MSL to the fledgling Predators when they acquired Vokoun and Sullivan is not an apples to apples comparison.

Plus Tampa signed MSL as a UFA... its not like their GM had to trade for him or anything... they just took a chance on a guy who Calgary gave up on and happened to find a diamond in the dung heap.

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02-06-2014, 02:36 AM
  #62
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I get it that you refuse to acknowledge that comparing the already mature franchise that was Tampa when the acquired MSL to the fledgling Predators when they acquired Vokoun and Sullivan is not an apples to apples comparison.

Plus Tampa signed MSL as a UFA... its not like their GM had to trade for him or anything... they just took a chance on a guy who Calgary gave up on and happened to find a diamond in the dung heap.
Too true. There was a pretty significant element of **** luck in that development. He was a 24 year old that had just put up 18 points in 56 games that last season in Calgary. Then, he probably doesn't even stick with the Lightning if they weren't one of the absolute worst teams in the league for his first two seasons there. His second season there he produced at a much better clip, but didn't truly take off until the year after. Not sure how anyone can use MSL as a case for anything except that players sometimes are extremely late bloomers. If the Preds signed a guy at his age, with the stats he had put up, people would be crapping on Poile left and right for it.

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02-06-2014, 02:43 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I get it that you refuse to acknowledge that comparing the already mature franchise that was Tampa when the acquired MSL to the fledgling Predators when they acquired Vokoun and Sullivan is not an apples to apples comparison.

Plus Tampa signed MSL as a UFA... its not like their GM had to trade for him or anything... they just took a chance on a guy who Calgary gave up on and happened to find a diamond in the dung heap.
So when are we going to mature as a franchise on your trajectory curve?

I love how MSL is luck, where as finding Rinne in 8th rd is something that should hold over Poile until he wants to retire. His time in Calgary was all on the 4th line, it was no secret he had offensive ability, people were just concerned about it size.

I actually have it on good authority that we are we interested in signing MSL at the time. Why it didn't get done, I can't answer that, but it does not surprise me. We'd be looking at a different franchise right now though, that's for sure.

Tampa is on fire again obtaining talent offensive talent outside of the 1st rd. Johnson, Killorn, Palat. They don't even need Stamkos to be #3 in the East.


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02-06-2014, 02:53 AM
  #64
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Too true. There was a pretty significant element of **** luck in that development. He was a 24 year old that had just put up 18 points in 56 games that last season in Calgary. Then, he probably doesn't even stick with the Lightning if they weren't one of the absolute worst teams in the league for his first two seasons there. His second season there he produced at a much better clip, but didn't truly take off until the year after. Not sure how anyone can use MSL as a case for anything except that players sometimes are extremely late bloomers. If the Preds signed a guy at his age, with the stats he had put up, people would be crapping on Poile left and right for it.
Actually at the time of MSL signing, hardly anyone had soured on Poile. Quickly you forget our many offensive experiments like Marian Cisar, Rob Vallecivic, yachmenev,Tenkrat, Kjellberg, Classen, Petrov, etc. Our biggest hit was Orzagh, who was good for what he was actually.

But yes, MSL would've done just fine competing with the above for jobs.

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02-06-2014, 03:09 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Actually at the time of MSL signing, hardly anyone had soured on Poile. Quickly you forget our many offensive experiments like Marian Cisar, Rob Vallecivic, yachmenev,Tenkrat, Kjellberg, Classen, Petrov, etc. Our biggest hit was Orzagh, who was good for what he was actually.

But yes, MSL would've done just fine competing with the above for jobs.
I was referring to at the present time.

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02-06-2014, 07:03 AM
  #66
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The problem with the whole MSL argument is there is no guarantee that if he had come here that he would of blossomed into the talent that he did in Tampa. Sure its entirely possible that he could have, but lets not act like we have ever had anyone near the caliber of scoring forwards that Tampa has had in his time there.

As far as Suter goes, its a matter of your personal view on the whole thing imo. Poile saw his chance to make a drive for a cup and he took it. I can remember on the Preds board arguing about it back then, and the same things were going around then. Do we trade him? Do we keep him and try and make a run? Poile gambled and lost, had we made it to the SCF or heck maybe even the Conference Finals then I think several things end up different. Maybe at that point forwards do want to be here, seeing a chance to grab a Cup, Suter and Weber both stay and who knows what happens.

Frankly, I think if the AK/Radulov thing is handled differently and we get by the Phoenix series this franchise is in a completely different place today. We did though, and because the GM gambled and lost we've got to deal with that.

I still shake my head at it, one freaking series probably ended up changing this franchises fortune far more than it should have.

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02-06-2014, 10:34 AM
  #67
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The problem with the whole MSL argument is there is no guarantee that if he had come here that he would of blossomed into the talent that he did in Tampa. Sure its entirely possible that he could have, but lets not act like we have ever had anyone near the caliber of scoring forwards that Tampa has had in his time there.

As far as Suter goes, its a matter of your personal view on the whole thing imo. Poile saw his chance to make a drive for a cup and he took it. I can remember on the Preds board arguing about it back then, and the same things were going around then. Do we trade him? Do we keep him and try and make a run? Poile gambled and lost, had we made it to the SCF or heck maybe even the Conference Finals then I think several things end up different. Maybe at that point forwards do want to be here, seeing a chance to grab a Cup, Suter and Weber both stay and who knows what happens.

Frankly, I think if the AK/Radulov thing is handled differently and we get by the Phoenix series this franchise is in a completely different place today. We did though, and because the GM gambled and lost we've got to deal with that.

I still shake my head at it, one freaking series probably ended up changing this franchises fortune far more than it should have.
As far as I'm concerned, one PLAYER did it. Mike freaking Smith. He caught lightning in a bottle for a two or three week period and was the biggest reason they won that series and it wasn't even close. And because I'm sure the "oh if we had more offense" remarks are looming after that comment, he's also the only reason Phoenix beat Chicago in 6 games the series before. I distinctly remember thinking that except for Game 2, we outplayed Phoenix in every game, Smith just stopped everything. Pretty much like he did against the Hawks in round 1.

I went back and looked at the SOG in that series and we lost Game 1 after outshooting them 42-24. We somehow lost Game 5 outshooting them 33-17. It was just a weird series, and Smith was largely unbeatable. Phoenix clearly was, but Smith wasn't.


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02-06-2014, 11:24 AM
  #68
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The problem with the whole MSL argument is there is no guarantee that if he had come here that he would of blossomed into the talent that he did in Tampa. Sure its entirely possible that he could have, but lets not act like we have ever had anyone near the caliber of scoring forwards that Tampa has had in his time there.
It's such a cop out, anyone suggests an offense talent here-- "there's no guarantee they would have blossomed here" "trotz system". Tired excuses.

All that talent you speak of-- like Brad Richards Conn Symthe winner-- available in our inaugural draft in the 3rd rd.

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02-06-2014, 11:38 AM
  #69
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It's such a cop out, anyone suggests an offense talent here-- "there's no guarantee they would have blossomed here" "trotz system". Tired excuses.

All that talent you speak of-- like Brad Richards Conn Symthe winner-- available in our inaugural draft in the 3rd rd.
Okay fine. Amuse us and guarantee us that Brad Richards would've been a star player if we had him. Or St. Louis if that's easier.

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02-06-2014, 01:30 PM
  #70
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Okay fine. Amuse us and guarantee us that Brad Richards would've been a star player if we had him. Or St. Louis if that's easier.
Anyone with true offensive talent has done fine here-- Radulov, Sullivan, Kariya, Arnott, Dumont, Ronning, Hartnell (though he's 2nd line material), Hornqvist (2nd line material)

There's no basis to suggest guys with high-end offensive talent and drive (Richards in his prime, MSL) would not do well here.

It's just a lame unfounded excuse you and others come up with when you can't explain why Poile is unable to obtain high-end offensive talent.

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02-06-2014, 01:53 PM
  #71
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Anyone with true offensive talent has done fine here-- Radulov, Sullivan, Kariya, Arnott, Dumont, Ronning, Hartnell (though he's 2nd line material), Hornqvist (2nd line material)
What's funny is that Trotz was defended by you for flaming out in the playoffs in 06 because he didn't have good enough players and that Trotz made them a lot better. But now it shows that Trotz doesn't hamper players offensively.

Poile has a bad track record with drafting offense, going back to Washington. He's done pretty bad at bringing in offense from free agency, but has gotten a few good ones in Sully, Ronning, Dumont, etc.

But Trotz isn't without blame either. He has shown to call out younger players who make mistakes while not calling out veterans who make the same mistakes. We have cases like Wilson, Smith and Radulov who I argue would have been better players in other systems. Those guys were called out and looked like they were afraid to make mistakes. Radulov got a good amount of time playing with Fiddler IRC.

It looks like people have a very binary view. Those who hate Poile blame him and will defend Trotz to no end. And those who hate Trotz will do vice-versa. It's somewhere in the middle. Poile does struggle to offensive talent, but don't like Trotz hasn't hampered some of our offense as well. It's easy to try to blame one guy but it is BOTH of their fault. The truth is that we have a VERY conservative GM and coach and it has held us back, whether that be regular season or in the playoffs (I'd argue especially in the playoffs).

And it looks like another thread on here has merged into the same argument. Soon it will be about trading/not trading Weber. No wonder no one posts here anymore.

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02-06-2014, 02:07 PM
  #72
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What's funny is that Trotz was defended by you for flaming out in the playoffs in 06 because he didn't have good enough players and that Trotz made them a lot better. But now it shows that Trotz doesn't hamper players offensively.
There are different degrees of offensive talent. While Sullivan and Dumont have some offensive ability and they had career years under Trotz, they do not have the high-end ability of say Martin St Louis or Henrick Zetterberg.

The only excuse you guys come up is some hypothetical, subjective, imaginary world where Smith is playing in some other system scoring 40g a season. Or dreams of Legwand scoring 100 points. You have to live in that imaginary world because there is no proof to what you are saying.

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02-06-2014, 02:24 PM
  #73
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There are different degrees of offensive talent. While Sullivan and Dumont have some offensive ability and they had career years under Trotz, they do not have the high-end ability of say Martin St Louis or Henrick Zetterberg.

The only excuse you guys come up is some hypothetical, subjective, imaginary world where Smith is playing in some other system scoring 40g a season. Or dreams of Legwand scoring 100 points. You have to live in that imaginary world because there is no proof to what you are saying.
Would you like to address the rest of that post you're responding to. The other 90% of it where he makes valid points that must be awfully hard to spin in your direction?

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02-06-2014, 02:30 PM
  #74
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Would you like to address the rest of that post you're responding to. The other 90% of it where he makes valid points that must be awfully hard to spin in your direction?
No, I don't really care if Radulov was playing with Vernon Fidlder. He put up 26 goals in a secondary capacity in his 1st yr. That's good. You guys are just trying to divert the conversation into hypothetical world again and steer clear of the main conversation and facts.

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02-06-2014, 02:32 PM
  #75
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It's such a cop out, anyone suggests an offense talent here-- "there's no guarantee they would have blossomed here" "trotz system". Tired excuses.

All that talent you speak of-- like Brad Richards Conn Symthe winner-- available in our inaugural draft in the 3rd rd.
Its not a cop out, you have zero proof that any player, under a different coach and a different system turns out to be the player he now is. MSL was nothing special in Calgary, but goes to Tampa and suddenly he's pretty good. If he stays in Calgary does he develop into that player? Maybe but looking at the track record it doesn't look like it would of happened.

We are golden at developing Goalies, Defensemen, and two way forwards apparently. Hard to say if we could actually develop a top line forward, we either never draft one or trade them off before they have a chance to.

I'm like others though, both the coach and GM take a hefty amount of blame in my mind. This is now the second team that Poile has had problem getting great forwards. At the same time, Trotz defense heavy system isn't exactly conducive to create or bring in top offensive forwards.

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