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Look at past drafts, what pick do you question the most?

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Old
02-06-2014, 01:36 PM
  #76
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
Its not a cop out, you have zero proof that any player, under a different coach and a different system turns out to be the player he now is.
How exactly are you going to get proof that MSL would have blossomed here-- You are asking for an impossible scenario. You said you want me to GUARANTEE that he would've succeeded here. What next... you want me to GUARANTEE the next power ball numbers for you too? Get out of fantasy land.

What I can do is show the facts of all the players with some offensive ability who did well here.

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02-06-2014, 01:38 PM
  #77
glenngineer
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We've had one player in 15 years that was in the top 30 players in the league with their point per game average. One.

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02-06-2014, 01:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
How exactly are you going to get proof that MSL would have blossomed here-- You are asking for an impossible scenario. You said you want me to GUARANTEE that he would've succeeded here. What next... you want me to GUARANTEE the next power ball numbers for you too? Get out of fantasy land.

What I can do is show the facts of all the players with some offensive ability who did well here.
And they are? What is well?

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02-06-2014, 01:49 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
And they are? What is well?
See post 70. One definition of well is having career years under Trotz.

In Radulov's case, 26g in his first season playing in a secondary roll is swell.

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02-06-2014, 01:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
How exactly are you going to get proof that MSL would have blossomed here-- You are asking for an impossible scenario. You said you want me to GUARANTEE that he would've succeeded here. What next... you want me to GUARANTEE the next power ball numbers for you too? Get out of fantasy land.

What I can do is show the facts of all the players with some offensive ability who did well here.

Thats exactly my point though, there is no way to know at all that any name you list does well here compared to where they were. I mean look at the past, the names you list are generally guys with one maybe two seasons where they do good to even break 25 goals, yeah thats setting the world on fire.

Frankly do I personally believe that someone like Ovechkin, Crosby or Stamkos comes in and only scores 15g a season? Its possible, unlikely but possible. Do I think any of those players come in and get close to 50 playing for Trotz? I don't think there is anyway in hell they do. Heck I would even argue that Ovechkin would of ended up buried on the 4th line because of his personality and we would be talking about yet another player who didn't fully develop.

Crosby was treated with kid gloves, Pittsburgh did every thing under the sun to insure the guy developed into the super star he is. Do I think he gets that kind of treatment here. No way in hell, I don't think Trotz or Poile is doing anyone that way.

I don't think Trotz nor Poile are horrible at their jobs, but at the same time based on the track record we have seen for 15 years, there is absolutely zero reason to believe that either of them, especially the combination of them will ever have a forward with a name like Stamkos, Crosby or Ovechkin.

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02-06-2014, 01:56 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
We've had one player in 15 years that was in the top 30 players in the league with their point per game average. One.
That's not true. Walker, Kariya, Arnott, Sullivan, Dumont where all in the top 30 at some point.

And those guys (sans Kariya) are not elite talent. Expecting anything more is a pipe dream.

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02-06-2014, 01:59 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
Frankly do I personally believe that someone like Ovechkin, Crosby or Stamkos comes in and only scores 15g a season? Its possible, unlikely but possible. .
If you think Crosby or Smatkoks comes here and it's a possibility they won't score 15 goals, we can not do business together. That's delusional.

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02-06-2014, 02:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
That's not true. Walker, Kariya, Arnott, Sullivan, Dumont where all in the top 30 at some point.

And those guys (sans Kariya) are not elite talent. Expecting anything more is a pipe dream.
Actually they weren't. I did the research. One player in the top 30 with their ppg average.

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02-06-2014, 02:03 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Actually they weren't. I did the research. One player in the top 30 with their ppg average.
So you're including guys who might have played 1 game with 1 point?

Top 30 scoring in a year-- all those guys have been in it at some point.

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02-06-2014, 02:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
If you think Crosby or Smatkoks comes here and it's a possibility they won't score 15 goals, we can not do business together. That's delusional.
I said it was unlikely, however with the way Trotz likes to bury guys at times, you damn right I think its possible.

Granted the guy hasn't lite the world on fire, but he's had Stalberg buried on the 3rd and 4th lines for most of the season and this is a guy we are paying a pretty serious contract to to come in and score goals.

You think he would have any qualms about doing the same with anyone else, especially a guy that is drafted?

Would I love to see someone come down the pipe and have me eat my words? Heck yeah I would. 15 years in though, how confident are you thats going to happen?

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02-06-2014, 02:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
I said it was unlikely, however with the way Trotz likes to bury guys at times, you damn right I think its possible.

Granted the guy hasn't lite the world on fire, but he's had Stalberg buried on the 3rd and 4th lines for most of the season and this is a guy we are paying a pretty serious contract to to come in and score goals.

You think he would have any qualms about doing the same with anyone else, especially a guy that is drafted?

Would I love to see someone come down the pipe and have me eat my words? Heck yeah I would. 15 years in though, how confident are you thats going to happen?
You ate your own words by saying there's a possibility Crosby wouldn't score 15 goals here.

If Poile's doing the drafting/trading, I'm not optimistic that we'll have a high-end scorer(s) here. That's the problem.

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02-06-2014, 02:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
So you're including guys who might have played 1 game with 1 point?

Top 30 scoring in a year-- all those guys have been in it at some point.
Read what I wrote. Not top 30 in scoring. Top 30 in points per game average. It takes in to account any injuries or time missed so you see the true production of a player throughout the games they've played in and no I didn't count guys who had one point in one game. Most were 50 games and above.

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02-06-2014, 02:20 PM
  #88
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Read what I wrote. Not top 30 in scoring. Top 30 in points per game average. It takes in to account any injuries or time missed so you see the true production of a player throughout the games they've played in and no I didn't count guys who had one point in one game. Most were 50 games and above.
So top 30 ppg average using some vague subjective formula that we don't know about? "Most" were 50 games and above??

Keep it clean and simple-- top 30 over the course of the year. Anything else is massaging stats to your advantage.

Honestly, a guy like Dumont probably doesn't belong in the top 30 of scoring. But he was at one point with Trotz.

Kariya was not in the top 30 in the years before and after Trotz. But he was with Trotz.

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02-06-2014, 02:34 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
So top 30 ppg average using some vague subjective formula that we don't know about? "Most" were 50 games and above??

Keep it clean and simple-- top 30 over the course of the year. Anything else is massaging stats to your advantage.

Honestly, a guy like Dumont probably doesn't belong in the top 30 of scoring. But he was at one point with Trotz.

Kariya was not in the top 30 in the years before and after Trotz. But he was with Trotz.
How is this some random formula? Point per game average. Very simple. How many points per game did that player average over the course of the season. Pretty simple if you ask me and gives the true value of a player as opposed to just sheer points during the season which could be inflated due to more games played by a player.

It's like saying Kane and his 80 points in 80 games is more valuable than Crosby's 60 points in 45 games. It's simply not true and the ppg is a better measuring stick than overall points IMO.

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02-06-2014, 02:45 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
The only excuse you guys come up is some hypothetical, subjective, imaginary world where Smith is playing in some other system scoring 40g a season. Or dreams of Legwand scoring 100 points. You have to live in that imaginary world because there is no proof to what you are saying.
I never said that. I don't know where you got your numbers from. The fact is our organization struggles offensively. Some believes it's only the GM. Others the coach. I think it's both but frankly I don't care. I'm tired of it holding us back and want it to get better.

As for the actual thread question. We have a lot of disappointments. But not being able to land a top line scorer in any of drafts, despite the round is the worst mistake. The team has had some great picks yes, but here we are still struggling to draft top line offensive talent. And given our inability to land those players in trade or signing, it makes our draft failings in that department worse.

Upshall over Lupul is pretty much our drafting philosophy in one pick. Not that Lupul became a top player but it shows we went with a harder worker more character guy instead of offense. We took that one pretty safe. And we actually got a pick for not picking Lupul.

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02-06-2014, 02:51 PM
  #91
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You've said you are supposedly taking out some people, like say those that 1 scored one 1 game. You've said "most" on your list have played more than 50 games. You are using some criteria only you know about.

The only strightfoward way is top 30 in the scoring over the course of a year. And Hell yes, Kane playing 80 games vs Crosby's 45 was certainly more valuable.

If you want to massage your stats to push our guys out of the top 30, whatever. They are damn close enough and are cleanly in the top 30 in scoring over the course of the year.

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02-06-2014, 02:53 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
As for the actual thread question. We have a lot of disappointments. But not being able to land a top line scorer in any of drafts, despite the round is the worst mistake. The team has had some great picks yes, but here we are still struggling to draft top line offensive talent. And given our inability to land those players in trade or signing, it makes our draft failings in that department worse.

Upshall over Lupul is pretty much our drafting philosophy in one pick. Not that Lupul became a top player but it shows we went with a harder worker more character guy instead of offense. We took that one pretty safe. And we actually got a pick for not picking Lupul.
I agree with that completely and was my original point.

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02-06-2014, 03:04 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
You've said you are supposedly taking out some people, like say those that 1 scored one 1 game. You've said "most" on your list have played more than 50 games. You are using some criteria only you know about.

The only strightfoward way is top 30 in the scoring over the course of a year. And Hell yes, Kane playing 80 games vs Crosby's 45 was certainly more valuable.

If you want to massage your stats to push our guys out of the top 30, whatever. They are damn close enough and are cleanly in the top 30 in scoring over the course of the year.
The guys on my list didn't play one game and played the majority of the year. Is that better?

Go scan the records over the last 15 years of the entire NHL like I did. I used ppg and a majority of the season played. If that doesn't work for you to freaking bad. Our offensive talent has been below average for 15 years anyway you slice it. Was it Poile? Was it Trotz? Was it both? Who cares at this point as we have never drafted and developed an elite talent at forward. We can spin stats til we're blue in the face and it won't change the fact we haven't drafted and developed a forward to the elite level. Not Rads. Not Hartnell. Not Legwand. Not Erat. No one.

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02-06-2014, 03:12 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
The guys on my list didn't play one game and played the majority of the year. Is that better?

Go scan the records over the last 15 years of the entire NHL like I did. I used ppg and a majority of the season played. If that doesn't work for you to freaking bad. Our offensive talent has been below average for 15 years anyway you slice it. Was it Poile? Was it Trotz? Was it both? Who cares at this point as we have never drafted and developed an elite talent at forward. We can spin stats til we're blue in the face and it won't change the fact we haven't drafted and developed a forward to the elite level. Not Rads. Not Hartnell. Not Legwand. Not Erat. No one.
Sorry I just can't understand some self-created list with vague criteria that no one is seeing except for you. The clean way to do it is top 30 in scoring. But you are right, it doesn't matter, we don't even have those guys anymore. The original point was they did very well under Trotz, some with career years, and they all were in top 30 in scoring over a year.

You are also right we can't draft offense. Radulov was the only true 1st line talent we've drafted, but people were passing on him due to character issues.

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02-06-2014, 03:26 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Sorry I just can't understand some self-created list with vague criteria that no one is seeing except for you. The clean way to do it is top 30 in scoring. But you are right, it doesn't matter, we don't even have those guys anymore. The original point was they did very well under Trotz, some with career years, and they all were in top 30 in scoring over a year.

You are also right we can't draft offense. Radulov was the only true 1st line talent we've drafted, but people were passing on him due to character issues.
Points per game is not a difficult stat to grasp. It's like goals against average, except way more simple.

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02-06-2014, 03:56 PM
  #96
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Points per game is not a difficult stat to grasp. It's like goals against average, except way more simple.
****; He's already said he's selectively taking people out and leaving others in based on a criteria he's vaguely explained. "Most have played over 50 games". It's not the list you go sort at NHL.com which has players playing 1game with 1p who are ahead of Kariya in ppp.

I really don't care. Dumont, Sullivan, Arnott, Walker, Kariya were in top 30 of scoring at some point. If you want to push them out using some other vaguely explained algorithm, whatever pleases you. They did "well with Trotz" anyway you slice it. As usual, people are diverting the conversation into some irrelevant tangent.

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02-06-2014, 05:19 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
****; He's already said he's selectively taking people out and leaving others in based on a criteria he's vaguely explained. "Most have played over 50 games". It's not the list you go sort at NHL.com which has players playing 1game with 1p who are ahead of Kariya in ppp.

I really don't care. Dumont, Sullivan, Arnott, Walker, Kariya were in top 30 of scoring at some point. If you want to push them out using some other vaguely explained algorithm, whatever pleases you. They did "well with Trotz" anyway you slice it. As usual, people are diverting the conversation into some irrelevant tangent.
And then I told you it was players who played a majority of the games. I like how you forget to read posts and pick what you want out of them. Ppg with players playing the majority of the games that season. Guys who played 1 game were not included. That is not vague. That is precise.

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02-06-2014, 05:35 PM
  #98
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And then I told you it was players who played a majority of the games. I like how you forget to read posts and pick what you want out of them. Ppg with players playing the majority of the games that season. Guys who played 1 game were not included. That is not vague. That is precise.
So you are saying anyone who has played >41 games? Even though that's unfair to people who produced over a whole season we'll play your game and you're still off. Sullivan, Karyia, and Walker were in the highest 30 PPG, while only using players who have played in >41 games in a season. Selective Stat Massaging and it's still off. If you want to push guys like Arnott to 32nd, whatever, your agenda.

Keep it clean-- Kariya, Sullivan, Arnott, Walker, Dumont all where in top 30 scoring at some point in their Predator career.

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02-06-2014, 06:01 PM
  #99
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Our first round goalie picks were both 100% busts. Upshall and Blum as well.

Suter, Hartnell turned out as darn good picks.

Very few selections are sure fire picks. For all of the complaining here about Legwand ... look at the next six forwards selected and compare numbers.

Now back to the beating of this poor fellow ....



Last edited by 101st_fan: 02-06-2014 at 06:07 PM.
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02-06-2014, 06:33 PM
  #100
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Our first round goalie picks were both 100% busts. Upshall and Blum as well.

Suter, Hartnell turned out as darn good picks.

Very few selections are sure fire picks. For all of the complaining here about Legwand ... look at the next six forwards selected and compare numbers.

Now back to the beating of this poor fellow ....

You should've used a bloated horse as this has gone on way too long.

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