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Look at past drafts, what pick do you question the most?

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Old
02-06-2014, 06:35 PM
  #101
Viqsi
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
No, I don't really care if Radulov was playing with Vernon Fidlder. He put up 26 goals in a secondary capacity in his 1st yr. That's good. You guys are just trying to divert the conversation into hypothetical world again and steer clear of the main conversation and facts.
Ah. So you're the only one who's allowed to speculate wildly about possibilities and what-if scenarios in these little debates? Or are others so permitted?

What would I have to do to be allowed to discuss hypothetical scenarios? Is there some sort of approval process beyond "agree with you", or is there a form I have to fill out, or what?

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02-06-2014, 06:42 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
You should've used a bloated horse as this has gone on way too long.
Feels longer when your stats don't hold water.

As for the dead horses, the usuals always say that right after they put in the 2 cents on the matter. Like "I'm going to say what I have say about the matter, anything after is beating a dead horse". As for Visiqui, I see you are trying to pick fights in just about every thread. Hope someone bites if that's what you want to do tonight.

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02-06-2014, 06:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Ah. So you're the only one who's allowed to speculate wildly about possibilities and what-if scenarios in these little debates? Or are others so permitted?

What would I have to do to be allowed to discuss hypothetical scenarios? Is there some sort of approval process beyond "agree with you", or is there a form I have to fill out, or what?
It's a fact that we could have drafted Brad Richards or Henrick Zetterberg. He's a fact that we could've signed St Louis.

All the speculatioin... there's a chance Crosby wouldn't score 15g here, legwand could be a superstar in another sysytem... sheer speculation & dreamland.

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02-06-2014, 08:41 PM
  #104
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Upshall was seen as a better pick when it was made. What wasn't anticipated was his injuries.

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02-06-2014, 08:50 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Feels longer when your stats don't hold water.

As for the dead horses, the usuals always say that right after they put in the 2 cents on the matter. Like "I'm going to say what I have say about the matter, anything after is beating a dead horse". As for Visiqui, I see you are trying to pick fights in just about every thread. Hope someone bites if that's what you want to do tonight.




My objective generally isn't "picking fights" so much as calling folks out on double standards. But you believe what you like.

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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
It's a fact that we could have drafted Brad Richards or Henrick Zetterberg. He's a fact that we could've signed St Louis.
Oh for ****'s sake.

1) Those sorts of miraculous discoveries are INCREDIBLY RARE. Judging job performance based on failure to produce a once-in-an-average-career event is absurd.
2) Despite that rarity, Nashville HAS GOTTEN SUCH PLAYERS UNDER SUCH RARE CIRCUMSTANCES. It's just that they happen to not be forwards.

You seem to be holding Poile to an impossibly high standard. Yes, I concur he should be doing better with the forwards situation. But to call for his replacement because he hasn't gotten a miracle savior in the 6th round is completely absurd.

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02-06-2014, 09:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
1) Those sorts of miraculous discoveries are INCREDIBLY RARE. Judging job performance based on failure to produce a once-in-an-average-career event is absurd.
2) Despite that rarity, Nashville HAS GOTTEN SUCH PLAYERS UNDER SUCH RARE CIRCUMSTANCES. It's just that they happen to not be forwards.

You seem to be holding Poile to an impossibly high standard. Yes, I concur he should be doing better with the forwards situation. But to call for his replacement because he hasn't gotten a miracle savior in the 6th round is completely absurd.
I only gave a couple examples-- there are more. It's not 'miraculous' to find offensive talent outside of the top 5 picks in a daft.

Great GMs find way to obtain offensive talent, the rest are David Poile. And, we should be holding him to a high standard.

However get well soon, Poile.

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02-06-2014, 09:18 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I only gave a couple examples-- there are more. It's not 'miraculous' to find offensive talent outside of the top 5 picks in a daft.
You gave the truly miraculous examples. If it's sufficient to have decent-quality forwards, then I can name a few other names - Martin Erat, Patric Hornqvist, and Craig Smith.

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02-06-2014, 09:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
You gave the truly miraculous examples. If it's sufficient to have decent-quality forwards, then I can name a few other names - Martin Erat, Patric Hornqvist, and Craig Smith.
If that's good enough for you than you are cheering for the right team.

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02-06-2014, 09:24 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
If that's good enough for you than you are cheering for the right team.


So according to your rules, it's not "offensive talent" unless you get a point-per-game guy?

News flash: those are not nearly as commonly available as folks seem to assume.

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02-06-2014, 09:39 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post


So according to your rules, it's not "offensive talent" unless you get a point-per-game guy?

News flash: those are not nearly as commonly available as folks seem to assume.
No one said it was easy. And, you are making up things again.

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02-07-2014, 05:53 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
No one said it was easy. And, you are making up things again.
You sure seem to assume it is, given the number of times you've insisted Poile should be fired for not doing it despite the fact that (off the top of my head) maybe five or six GMs in the entire league have pulled off what you're demanding.

I feel like I'm talking to another frustrated Jackets fan, only one with even less justification for his position. There it was "well, we haven't made the playoffs again yet and have no superstars, therefore FIRE SOMEBODY." Here it's almost the same, except it's "we haven't made it past the second round yet and have only two superstars, none of which are forwards, therefore FIRE SOMEBODY." It's just gross.

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02-07-2014, 09:26 AM
  #112
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If I hear about Martin St Louis throughout the course of this argument one more time I'm gonna lose my ****. At the time Tampa Bay signed him, his history was less impressive than Niclas Bergfors for crying out loud. They got so insanely lucky that it's not even funny.

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02-07-2014, 10:06 AM
  #113
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If I hear about Martin St Louis throughout the course of this argument one more time I'm gonna lose my ****. At the time Tampa Bay signed him, his history was less impressive than Niclas Bergfors for crying out loud. They got so insanely lucky that it's not even funny.
So very this. And lest we forget, it's not as though Poile hasn't tried to do similar with many, many young forwards. Indeed, it's one of the things he's most frequently criticized for doing "instead of" turning water to wine or something.

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02-07-2014, 10:08 AM
  #114
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You sure seem to assume it is, given the number of times you've insisted Poile should be fired for not doing it despite the fact that (off the top of my head) maybe five or six GMs in the entire league have pulled off what you're demanding.

I feel like I'm talking to another frustrated Jackets fan, only one with even less justification for his position. There it was "well, we haven't made the playoffs again yet and have no superstars, therefore FIRE SOMEBODY." Here it's almost the same, except it's "we haven't made it past the second round yet and have only two superstars, none of which are forwards, therefore FIRE SOMEBODY." It's just gross.
The general dissatisfaction with me isn't the fact that we haven't done this one thing personel-wise. Every franchise can point at a Doh! move like Brian Finley, etc.

It's that we're essentially the 2nd most irrelevant franchise in the NHL since our existence. Thank heavens for your Blue Jackets.

15 years - no appreciable success whatsoever. We eeked into the playoffs a couple of times. Yes, we've had some challenges. So has just about everyone else.

Also, you say we've got 2 superstars. And I agree. We might have the best defenseman and best goalie on the planet, and we can't even make the playoffs because the team is so poorly constructed that those two superstars are going to waste.

No one ever wants to make a change just for the sake of change - but at what point does banging your head against the wall over and over again just not make any more sense.

Does anyone have any confidence that, after 15 years - The Poile/Trotz plan is the one to bring a cup back to Nashville?

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02-07-2014, 10:22 AM
  #115
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The general dissatisfaction with me isn't the fact that we haven't done this one thing personel-wise. Every franchise can point at a Doh! move like Brian Finley, etc.

It's that we're essentially the 2nd most irrelevant franchise in the NHL since our existence. Thank heavens for your Blue Jackets.
Minnesota's relevance is derived entirely from their ability to poach a player Nashville developed. The Thrashers franchise is relevant because it was backstabbed and taken away.

I really think you're overstating things here maybe just a teensy tiny bit.

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02-07-2014, 10:23 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
The general dissatisfaction with me isn't the fact that we haven't done this one thing personel-wise. Every franchise can point at a Doh! move like Brian Finley, etc.

It's that we're essentially the 2nd most irrelevant franchise in the NHL since our existence. Thank heavens for your Blue Jackets.

15 years - no appreciable success whatsoever. We eeked into the playoffs a couple of times. Yes, we've had some challenges. So has just about everyone else.

Also, you say we've got 2 superstars. And I agree. We might have the best defenseman and best goalie on the planet, and we can't even make the playoffs because the team is so poorly constructed that those two superstars are going to waste.

No one ever wants to make a change just for the sake of change - but at what point does banging your head against the wall over and over again just not make any more sense.

Does anyone have any confidence that, after 15 years - The Poile/Trotz plan is the one to bring a cup back to Nashville?
Come on, don't forget Florida and Atlanta/Winnipeg. Give us some credit. We're probably the 4th most irrelevant............

Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa and Minnesota have also spent a lot of time cranking up the suck knob since we've been around too.

Speaking of irrelevant, I was really hoping we'd get moved to the Eastern Conference. I honestly believe if we'd spent our whole existence out there we'd have made the Finals at least once if not multiple times. Carolina and Tampa Bay have won Cups and they are far more inconsistent throughout the last 10 years than we've been. I think our reputation as a franchise would be a lot different if we had been an eastern team. Just a theory.

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02-07-2014, 11:50 AM
  #117
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If I hear about Martin St Louis throughout the course of this argument one more time I'm gonna lose my ****. At the time Tampa Bay signed him, his history was less impressive than Niclas Bergfors for crying out loud. They got so insanely lucky that it's not even funny.
Martin St Louis did not come from right field. He absolutely torn up college hockey. The state of Vermont was clamoring he was the best player to ever play in in Vermont--yes that includes John LeClair.

He was playing 4th lines minutes in Calgary and never really got a shot. It was no secret the guy had skills.

We were interested in him. Apparently Tampa outbid us with their 700K contract. Meanwhile, we were perfectly willing to do expirements with Cisar, Tenkrat, Yachmenev-- and an endless list of overage Europeans that Poile that thought needed a shot in the NHL.

It was far from "pure luck" and actually TBL had a lot more to go off of than some 17yr old prospect in Denmark.

It's not about failure to get MSL-- I've provided a whole list of names of top-line offensive talent that was obtained outside of the first round. You guys are choosing to hone in on this. Ironic, since we were in the running to get MSL, but as per usual, Poile fell short.


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02-07-2014, 11:55 AM
  #118
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You sure seem to assume it is, given the number of times you've insisted Poile should be fired for not doing it despite the fact that (off the top of my head) maybe five or six GMs in the entire league have pulled off what you're demanding.

I feel like I'm talking to another frustrated Jackets fan, only one with even less justification for his position. There it was "well, we haven't made the playoffs again yet and have no superstars, therefore FIRE SOMEBODY." Here it's almost the same, except it's "we haven't made it past the second round yet and have only two superstars, none of which are forwards, therefore FIRE SOMEBODY." It's just gross.
No what's gross is that we were on the cusp of being elite and now were fighting to get out of lottery pick territory.

But you are right.. Jackets are used to lottery picks. As mentioned, we are fighting with them and other for the most irrelevant franchise in the NHL right now. But we can't really make fun of Jackets anymore, since they have been better or equal to us the last 2 years.

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02-07-2014, 11:56 AM
  #119
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Jon Blum over David Perron and PK Subban.

But as mentioned, it's the body of work as whole. PLENTY of teams have found ways to get offensive talent outside the top 5 picks. Over the last 15 years, we are certainly one of, if not the worst team at obtaining offense.

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02-07-2014, 12:09 PM
  #120
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As another example of a team aggressively going to get offense.. article on how Sharks obtained Logan Couture:
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2010/1...logan-couture/

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02-07-2014, 12:25 PM
  #121
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Martin St Louis did not come from right field. He absolutely torn up college hockey. The state of Vermont was clamoring he was the best player to ever play in in Vermont--yes that includes John LeClair.

He was playing 4th lines minutes in Calgary and never really got a shot. It was no secret the guy had skills.
And how many times have we heard similar stories about similar players doing similarly amazing things in lower levels and never doing a damned thing at the NHL level? Hell, there's examples of that on AHL and ECHL rosters across the continent. If that's all it took to pinpoint top offensive talent, every team in the NHL would be drowning in it.

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We were interested in him. Apparently Tampa outbid us with their 700K contract. Meanwhile, we were perfectly willing to do expirements with Cisar, Tenkrat, Yachmenev-- and an endless list of overage Europeans that Poile that thought needed a shot in the NHL.

It was far from "pure luck" and actually TBL had a lot more to go off of than some 17yr old prospect in Denmark.

It's not about failure to get MSL-- I've provided a whole list of names of top-line offensive talent that was obtained outside of the first round. You guys are choosing to hone in on this. Ironic, since we were in the running to get MSL, but as per usual, Poile fell short.
And in 2003 we had the chance up here in Columbus to secure our defensive future for years, but twice in a row, instead of taking the star defenseman picked two picks later, we picked a forward.We got Nikolay Zherdev and Dan Fritsche. Y'all had to make do with Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. OH HOW HORRIBLE. What an UNBEARABLE HARDSHIP.

Any disgruntled fan can come up with these sorts of two-bit excuses for any team. Like there was that one time we were in for Chris Pronger but didn't get him because MacLean refused to trade Alexandre Picard. Or when he overrode the scouts by insisting that Anze Kopitar or Dion Phaneuf would be great draft picks. Or that one time when we could have had Brad Richards centering Nash if only we'd had the "foresight" to trade away Pascal Leclaire at a time when we had no other starting goaltending other than a one-year-away-from-Calder-Trophy Steve Mason. Or how our fine prospect Cody Goloubef looks like he'll be a decent blueliner someday, but was also the last pick just before Roman ****ing Josi. Or Stefan Legein anything. Et cetera, et cetera.

Want examples from more successful teams? Ask the Penguins about Shero's frequent inability to get wingers for Crosby. Or ask any Blackhawks fan about their perpetual lack of a second-line center. There's other examples.

This is just a tunnel vision variant of hindsight - if the magical pieces had fallen just so, All Would Have Been Great, and for failure to precisely predict this Magnificent Future so-and-so agenda (usually a FIRE SOMEBODY agenda) has to be followed. It was bull**** among Jackets fans and it is even more bull**** here.

Predicted Response to the "hardship" comment: some diversionary tangental crap about Ryan Suter's departure.

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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Jon Blum over David Perron and PK Subban.

But as mentioned, it's the body of work as whole. PLENTY of teams have found ways to get offensive talent outside the top 5 picks. Over the last 15 years, we are certainly one of, if not the worst team at obtaining offense.
Here's another team that has managed to get offensive talent outside of the top 5 picks:

THE NASHVILLE PREDATORS.

Sure, none of it has been elite-level, but that's also true of the bulk of the "plenty" of teams you cite.

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02-07-2014, 12:32 PM
  #122
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And in 2003 we had the chance up here in Columbus to secure our defensive future for years, but twice in a row, instead of taking the star defenseman picked two picks later, we picked a forward.We got Nikolay Zherdev and Dan Fritsche. Y'all had to make do with Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. OH HOW HORRIBLE. What an UNBEARABLE HARDSHIP.
If you are judging us vs Columbus (which always seems to happen) we don't look bad.

In Nashville, most have higher expectations than that. I judge us compared to the Sharks and Kings of the NHL. They were on the cusp of being elite, and have made the right moves to keep them there.

Our goal should be to legitimately compete for the Stanley Cup, not be better than Columbus.

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02-07-2014, 12:36 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
If you are judging us vs Columbus (which always seems to happen) we don't look bad.

In Nashville, most have higher expectations than that. I judge us compared to the Sharks and Kings of the NHL. They were on the cusp of being elite, and have made the right moves to keep them there.

Our goal should be to legitimately compete for the Stanley Cup, not be better than Columbus.
I bring up the Jackets frequently because of the constant perception being spewed about that Nashville represents some kind of hopeless loser franchise. Higher expectations do not entitle you to higher hyperbole.

If you'd like comparisons to other teams, I mentioned Boston and Pittsburgh already; feel free to take a look.

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02-07-2014, 01:20 PM
  #124
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You should've used a bloated horse as this has gone on way too long.
I have to look through my old pics. I have one of a camel that bloated until it burst open. Those are very aromatic events.

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02-07-2014, 01:46 PM
  #125
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I bring up the Jackets frequently because of the constant perception being spewed about that Nashville represents some kind of hopeless loser franchise. Higher expectations do not entitle you to higher hyperbole.
Yes, Boston's another good example of finding offensive talent. Lucic, Krjeci, Bergon-- all 2nd rd picks. In fact, in their top 10 of scoring they have exactly one 1st rd pick (FA signiing Igiinila).

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