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To what extent would a healthy Bobby Orr have affected the '72 Summit Series?

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Old
02-06-2014, 10:39 PM
  #101
tony d
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I think he would have got them an extra win or 2.

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02-06-2014, 11:29 PM
  #102
Killion
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To number 10 and Killion.How real or valid was CBC movie about the 1972 series-was it very factual or were there many holes in movie.It seemed the character who played Phil Esposito did not take series seriously also there seemed to be some big egoes on team-any truth
That movie was horrible thom. Some hockey movies & dramatizations are great, but that one, no. Not at all.

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02-07-2014, 02:29 AM
  #103
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Firsov (and Vitaly Davydov, I was wrong about that in an earlier post) were both named to the Soviet roster for the Summit Series. Even after Game 3 of the Series Bobrov told the Canadian press both would play in Moscow. That strongly indicates they really tried to persuade him, given the embarrassment of not living up to their announcement. Seems like Firsov effectively refused.
That sounds believable. Apparently it was rather the 1972 WC then, where Firsov wanted to play but was never invited. I know that he had publicly voiced his displeasure with the change of coaches. There are some quotes in a Finnish sports book - he called Bobrov 'a zero' etc.

And I guess Tarasov and Chernyshev themselves wanted to take a break after the 1972 Olympics, so I don't know if they were fired per se; they were just never 'invited back', like they (and Firsov) thought they would be, heh. But there is also this story that Tarasov had refused to throw the game vs. Czechoslovakia at the 1972 Olympics (so that CSSR could get the Silver medal), and he was fired as a result.


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02-07-2014, 09:15 AM
  #104
IMLACHnME
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Double Whammy

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Oh ya, I remember Ron Harris alright. Tragically he was involved in the Bill Masterton incident. Only ever gave one interview on the subject & just a few brief words.... But yes, not a real big guy, 180lbs, low penalty minutes but absolutely feared for his devastating checking abilities. Like being hit by a Freight Train straight up like a Vadnais or Gadsby, and a Master of the Hip Check. I didnt really like him as I thought he was a bit dirty with those Submarine Hits like the one you mentioned on Esposito.

He was terrific with the Rangers, though usually used as a 5th Defenseman, sometimes playing on the Wing. Wasnt a designated fighter at all but but he sure did numbers on people when riled, Bob Hound Dog Kelly in particular. Dornhoffer. Often put out on the Wing against Schultz who had nothing good in mind for Rod Gilbert. Remember seeing him deck Yvon Cournoyer in a playoff game after the Roadrunner cheap shotted Ed Giacomin. No penalty on it as it happened so fast. Just drove him with a straight right, knocked him out, skates away like nothing happened. Oblivious.

Not sure he wouldve been ideal though IMLACH. But I see your point & agree. You check someone like a Kharlamov or whomever cleanly, no problem, but you dont go looking for him. If the opportunity arises, you check the guy, dont be sending him into the infirmary & next week, beat him & the Soviets or whomever fair & square. If it just so happens that someone does get felled like a Redwood ala Stevens on Lindros or whatever, well, thats hockey. Head down? Your a goner. The Soviets didnt play with their heads down & with the constant movement hard to hit, illusive, great skaters. We had the wheels & guns to beat them that way as well, and thats the kind of talent I wanted out there representing Canada. Best foot forward.
Poor Bill Masterton, he was on the receiving end of a double whammy of the worst kind. He was hit by Larry Cahan, the largest man then in the NHL, and Ron Harris, the human cannonball.

Oakland had a tough collection of d-men, thanks, I think, to the selections of Bert Olmstead: Cahan and Harris, already mentioned, and Bob Baun and Tracy Pratt. Even Kent Douglas was a defenseman never in contention for the Lady Byng.

You mentioned Carol Vadnais, a d-man who would have been "ideal" for Team Canada in 1972. He had some size, sandpaper, offensive prowess, and skating ability.

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02-07-2014, 12:23 PM
  #105
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^^^ Ya, Punch Imlach once said that "Olmstead Coaches himself". Actually acquired or "selected" by Billy Reay, then Coach in Toronto in the intra league draft from the Habs of course (left exposed as the Doctors figured his knees were shot). After Imlach was appointed full GM he fired Reay, appointed himself Coach/GM, and also appointed Bert Olmstead as Assistant Playing Coach. The younger guys, Brewer in particular couldnt stand him apparently, considered "Imlachs Spy" much as very much mistakenly the late 70's Leafs of Sittler & Turnbulls era considered Brewer the same when he came out of retirement. Olmstead was to run the practices however that only lasted 3 months, resigning saying he needed to concentrate on his own game but in reality having a time of it with his team mates. Again Olmstead was left exposed several seasons later, rather shocked about it, grabbed by the Rangers but refused to report, then his rights traded to Montreal, demanded they trade him, wouldnt report, retiring instead at 35. Five time Cup winner, in Toronto playing initially with Mahovlich & Nevin but used more as a utility/spare really. Montreal with Maurice Richard & Lach after Blakes retirement, then with Geoffrion & Beliveau.

Bob Baun had earned the wrath of Imlach through the 60's for offering advice to Rookies & others pursuant to Contract's, Bauns injuries as well frustrating Punch, so he was left exposed in the Expansion of 67/68 and yes, it was Olmstead who coaxed Boomer into even reporting who at that time was contemplating retiring instead. Olmstead only lasted a year in northern California, Baun demanding he be traded back to an 06 team, wish granted & winding up in Detroit. Exposed again in the Expansion of 70, grabbed by Imlach who immediately traded him to St.Louis, Baun refusing to report, so traded back to Toronto for Brit Selby. At that time as well, Bert Olmstead rumored to be the next Coach of the Leafs, replacing John McClellan.... who had developed ulcers in the Madhouse that was Maple Leaf Gardens. He lasted 4 seasons. Offered the Sabres Head Coaching position in 77 by Imlach but declined, though he did return with Imlach to Toronto when Ballard, having totally lost it by then hires Punch. Poor Johnny dropping dead of a heart attack while raking leaves at his home in Agincourt at 51 not long after.... Kent Douglas finally made it to the NHL at 26 after spending some time in Springfield playing for Shore, winning a Stanley Cup in Toronto in 63 in his Rookie Season & also won the Calder. And that was the pinnacle of his career. Thereafter falling into a more Policeman type role, some interesting battles with most notably John Ferguson....

... who's selection of Team Canadas' Assistant Coach after initially also being asked if he'd like to come out of retirement & play as well was rather...... "interesting"? I have a hard time wrapping my head around seeing Fergie in a Team Canada jersey out there. For sure it wouldve been entertaining if nothing else. I mean, the guy retires & when asked why, basically says rather hysterically "because I was afraid of what I might do to someone out there". What would the Russians have made of that piece of work? Still though, John Ferguson did have a pretty keen eye & excellent depth of hockey knowledge, players. Replaced Emile Francis in NY as GM, appointed Esposito Captain displacing Gilbert, that team going to the finals in 79. The connections in terms of player personnel between Boston & Team Canada on the Rangers roster through the latter 70's rather pronounced.


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Old
02-07-2014, 05:32 PM
  #106
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Golden Era in Oakland

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ Ya, Punch Imlach once said that "Olmstead Coaches himself". Actually acquired or "selected" by Billy Reay, then Coach in Toronto in the intra league draft from the Habs of course (left exposed as the Doctors figured his knees were shot). After Imlach was appointed full GM he fired Reay, appointed himself Coach/GM, and also appointed Bert Olmstead as Assistant Playing Coach. The younger guys, Brewer in particular couldnt stand him apparently, considered "Imlachs Spy" much as very much mistakenly the late 70's Leafs of Sittler & Turnbulls era considered Brewer the same when he came out of retirement. Olmstead was to run the practices however that only lasted 3 months, resigning saying he needed to concentrate on his own game but in reality having a time of it with his team mates. Again Olmstead was left exposed several seasons later, rather shocked about it, grabbed by the Rangers but refused to report, then his rights traded to Montreal, demanded they trade him, wouldnt report, retiring instead at 35. Five time Cup winner, in Toronto playing initially with Mahovlich & Nevin but used more as a utility/spare really. Montreal with Maurice Richard & Lach after Blakes retirement, then with Geoffrion & Beliveau.

Bob Baun had earned the wrath of Imlach through the 60's for offering advice to Rookies & others pursuant to Contract's, Bauns injuries as well frustrating Punch, so he was left exposed in the Expansion of 67/68 and yes, it was Olmstead who coaxed Boomer into even reporting who at that time was contemplating retiring instead. Olmstead only lasted a year in northern California, Baun demanding he be traded back to an 06 team, wish granted & winding up in Detroit. Exposed again in the Expansion of 70, grabbed by Imlach who immediately traded him to St.Louis, Baun refusing to report, so traded back to Toronto for Brit Selby. At that time as well, Bert Olmstead rumored to be the next Coach of the Leafs, replacing John McClellan.... who had developed ulcers in the Madhouse that was Maple Leaf Gardens. He lasted 4 seasons. Offered the Sabres Head Coaching position in 77 by Imlach but declined, though he did return with Imlach to Toronto when Ballard, having totally lost it by then hires Punch. Poor Johnny dropping dead of a heart attack while raking leaves at his home in Agincourt at 51 not long after.... Kent Douglas finally made it to the NHL at 26 after spending some time in Springfield playing for Shore, winning a Stanley Cup in Toronto in 63 in his Rookie Season & also won the Calder. And that was the pinnacle of his career. Thereafter falling into a more Policeman type role, some interesting battles with most notably John Ferguson....

... who's selection of Team Canadas' Assistant Coach after initially also being asked if he'd like to come out of retirement & play as well was rather...... "interesting"? I have a hard time wrapping my head around seeing Fergie in a Team Canada jersey out there. For sure it wouldve been entertaining if nothing else. I mean, the guy retires & when asked why, basically says rather hysterically "because I was afraid of what I might do to someone out there". What would the Russians have made of that piece of work? Still though, John Ferguson did have a pretty keen eye & excellent depth of hockey knowledge, players. Replaced Emile Francis in NY as GM, appointed Esposito Captain displacing Gilbert, that team going to the finals in 79. The connections in terms of player personnel between Boston & Team Canada on the Rangers roster through the latter 70's rather pronounced.
Has there ever been a man more despised than the one who does the job he is paid to do, as he is told to do it, without excuses or complaints? If you're seen to be gung ho and/or favored by the boss, the enmity is all the worse. I was in that situation once, early on, when I had the misfortune to be working with some real hammerheads. Since I didn't give the supervisor reason to bawl me out, he didn't do it, which turned off the hammerheads who were bawled out with good reason. Bert Olmstead would be the hockey equivalent of that, turning off his teammates because he didn't need to be told to work hard in practice.

Bert is, in my opinion, the man most responsible for the brief period that might be called the "Golden Era in Oakland." Apparently, he put together the team which was deemed to be the best in the West, before the 1967-68 season. Unfortunately, he was no more popular as coach in Oakland than he had been as Imlach's assistant. He "lost the room," and his job(s). However, his selections in the Expansion Draft, when traded, allowed the Seals to bolster their roster enough to be in the playoffs in 1968-69 and 1969-70. Kent Douglas brought the Seals Ted Hampson, Bert Marshall and John Brennaman. Ron Harris and Bob Baun, as you noted, brought Gary Jarrett, Doug Roberts, Howie Young and Chris Worthy. I strongly suspect that Baun was one of the veterans who led what was, essentially, a mutiny against Olmstead in Oakland.

I hadn't remembered Kent Douglas as quite as tough as, apparently, he was. Your comment led to do a little research, and discovered that he took on some tough hombres, John Ferguson a few times, as you said, and Reggie Fleming, also a few times. My hat, belatedly, is off to him.

There's a hockey book waiting to be written about the many players who wanted no part of playing in New York city, and why.

John Ferguson's handiwork with the Rangers is not remembered fondly by one particular former fan of the team, with Emile Francis in charge.

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Old
02-09-2014, 09:28 AM
  #107
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Talking about who should have possibly been on Team Canada 72's roster I am attaching a link to an excellent book I know of. It goes into detail about other choices that should have/could have been made. Very interesting.

Craig Wallace


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/147...pf_rd_i=507846

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02-09-2014, 10:43 AM
  #108
Killion
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... I am attaching a link to an excellent book I know of....
Well, if Larry LeBlanc of the Manitoulin Island Expositor thinks its just Peachy, thats good enough for me. What is that, a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, or seasonal? Like Spring/Summer & Fall/Winter issues?...

....but seriously, thanks for the link. Looks great!

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Old
02-11-2014, 06:43 PM
  #109
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Dave Keon

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the unofficial version being that he was left off on Harold Ballards orders because his Contract was up & that Harold, like Wirtz in Chicago with Hull, hoped to use inclusion on Team Canada as a bargaining chip if needed
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He was afraid that Keon would jump to the WHA in 72, whereas in Chicago, Wirtz didnt take the possibility that Hull would jump entirely seriously & was reportedly stunned & beyond ticked off when he did.
Inclusion on Team Canada came with the qualifier that the player must have signed a NHL contract for the 1972-73 season by August 13. Thus, Sinden & Co would actually have done Harold Ballard a favour had they named Dave Keon to their roster: it would have put pressure on him to either sign with the Leafs or lose his Team Canada spot like Hull, Sanderson, Tremblay, Cheevers. Makes the 'unoffical version' appear rather unlikely.

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02-13-2014, 09:24 AM
  #110
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He would have dominated the Russians

Were talking about the GOAT of all time here.

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02-13-2014, 10:40 AM
  #111
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He would have dominated the Russians

Were talking about the GOAT of all time here.
The Greatest Of All Time of all time?

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02-13-2014, 11:06 AM
  #112
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Yes haha. ooops.

but yah you get it.

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02-13-2014, 06:59 PM
  #113
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I've always wondered what the difference would be if we had Howe and Beliveau on the team. Both retired in 1971 and yet both were still great players. We know this because Howe entered the WHA in 1973-'74 and scored 100 points (it was the WHA but still impressive for a 45 year old. In 1974 the WHA played the Russians and Howe had 7 points in 7 games. Hard to imagine he wouldn't have done as well two years earlier in 1972.

Beliveau is a similar case. Finished 9th in points his last season in 1971. Had 22 points in the playoffs. This is from a 39 year old. Both were older and they may have been rattled a bit from a young fast Soviet team. After all, Frank Mahovlich was fast too and he had a harder time keeping up later on. But even as a checking type of role I think Beliveau would have excelled. Howe too.

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02-13-2014, 08:20 PM
  #114
LeBlondeDemon10
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I've always wondered what the difference would be if we had Howe and Beliveau on the team.
Do you or anyone know what Beliveau and Howe thought about Eagleson or what their relationship was like? I'm just wondering if there was some talk, but they declined because they didn't want to be part of the circus. Even though they would be representing their country.

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02-13-2014, 09:44 PM
  #115
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Do you or anyone know what Beliveau and Howe thought about Eagleson or what their relationship was like? I'm just wondering if there was some talk, but they declined because they didn't want to be part of the circus. Even though they would be representing their country.
I have no idea personally. They were both retired but surely wouldn't have looked out of place. I would assume that playing 20-25 years in the NHL they wanted a rest. But it would have been a lot like had Lemieux played for Canada in 1998. We'd have taken him in a heartbeat! Lemieux was better than either one of them in 1971 though of course. I don't know how they thought of Eagleson. They didn't have to deal with him for very long and Howe was loyal at one point to a fault to the Red Wings, so if he stayed consistent he may have not cared for Eagleson much. But in all the talk about 1972 I've never heard of anything indicating that that they were even asked. The strange thing though is that Harry Sinden wanted John Ferguson to play despite retiring in 1971. Ferguson coached instead of course. But if Ferguson was asked, it makes you wonder who else was.

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02-14-2014, 07:24 PM
  #116
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Karlsson doesn't look to bad on the larger ice surface in Sochi and Orr played a better two way game. Imagine him supplying those incredible end to end rushes and puck keep away games. We'll never know but I think Bobby Orr was robbed of the biggest stage of his career and would have brought his game to another level.

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02-14-2014, 08:16 PM
  #117
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I've always wondered what the difference would be if we had Howe and Beliveau on the team. Both retired in 1971 and yet both were still great players. We know this because Howe entered the WHA in 1973-'74 and scored 100 points (it was the WHA but still impressive for a 45 year old. In 1974 the WHA played the Russians and Howe had 7 points in 7 games. Hard to imagine he wouldn't have done as well two years earlier in 1972.

Beliveau is a similar case. Finished 9th in points his last season in 1971. Had 22 points in the playoffs. This is from a 39 year old. Both were older and they may have been rattled a bit from a young fast Soviet team. After all, Frank Mahovlich was fast too and he had a harder time keeping up later on. But even as a checking type of role I think Beliveau would have excelled. Howe too.
Howe, Beliveau, Hull and Orr would have been quite the addition to the roster. Certainly it would have been the greatest International team of all time in terms of talent on the roster, if not in execution due to the age of some of those individuals.

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