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Round 2, Vote 13 (HOH Top Centers)

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02-08-2014, 02:59 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Here's a slightly modified copy of what I posted about Duke Keats in the preliminary thread - I highly doubt he'll end up in my top 4 this round, but I do think he deserves to be in our top 60 somewhere:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

Western Canada Hockey League / Western Hockey League (1921-1926)
From 1922-1924 the WCHL, PCHA, and NHL all competed for the Stanley Cup, with the NHL winning all 3. After the PCHA folded, their best players and teams were absorbed by the WCHL. In 1925 and 1926, the NHL and WCHL (called WHL in 1926) played for the Stanley Cup. The WCHL won the Cup in 1925, the last time a non-NHL team won the Cup. After 1926, the WHL folded and their best players joined the NHL. In 1926-27, 3 of the top 4 NHL scorers, 6 of the top 10 scorers, and the top 4 in Hart voting had all spent the previous year in the WHL.
There are quite a few centers best known for playing in the PCHA or NHA who deserve consideration, but there is one guy best known for his play in the WCHL/WHL who deserves to be in our top 60, in my personal opinion.

That man is Duke Keats, known as the "Bad Man" of the Prairie leagues for his nastiness on the ice.


  • Keats was a WCHL/WHL All-Star every season from 1922-1926. (In 1926, it seems like he was probably the All-Star spare with Fredrickson getting the 1st Team C spot).
  • He was inducted into the HHOF in 1958, before several of his contemporaries who starred in the NHL (like Cy Denneny).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Patrick
Duke is the possessor of more hockey grey matter than any man who ever played the game. He is the most unselfish superstar in hockey. I have watched him innumerable times. In one game, I especially checked up on his play. He gave his wingmen thirty chances to score by perfectly placed passes. He's the brainiest pivot that ever pulled on a skate, because he can organize plays and make passes every time he starts
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader, Jan 13, 1923
The Duke is an ideal type of athlete, of husky build, quick on his skates, and possessing a good abundance of grey matter. He has one fault and that is temperament
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader, Feb. 23, 1923
Keats has earned his reputation as the best centre ice man in the four prairie league clubs. He also holds the doubtful honors as the league's bad man. In physique he is a small but thoroughly aggressive and has figured in many a wild fracas on the ice.
In addition to being a "bad man" and a solid backchecker (the newspaper that selected the WCHL All-Star teams picked Keats over Dick Irvin in 1923 because of his backchecking), Keats appears to have been a top 10 scorer in the world for a decade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me from ATD2012
Keats' first professional season was 1915-16 at the age of 21.

1916 NHA
1. Didier Pitre 39
2. Joe Malone 35
3. Newsy Lalonde 34
4. Duke Keats 29
5. Cy Denneny 28
6. Gord Roberts 25
7. Frank Nighbor 24

1917 NHA
Keats was 5th in points per game, but only played 2/3 of the season before leaving for military service during World War 1. He finished 12th in scoring at the end of the year.

Keats was a top 5 scorer in the NHA in his first two seasons

Keats missed 1918 and 1919 (aged 23-24) to fight in World War I.

1920 Big 4
1. Duke Keats 32
2. Keats' RW 22
3. Keats' LW 18
4. Herb Gardiner 17
5. XXX 14

1921 Big 4
1. Duke Keats 29
2. Keats' LW 25
3. Keats' former RW 21
4. Harry Oliver 20
5. XXX 20

I think it's pretty clear the Big 4 was a fairly weak league, but Keats dominated it like you would expect

1922 WCHL
1. Duke Keats 56
2. George Hay (24 yo) 34
3. Joe Simpson (29 yo) 34
4. Keat's LW (different guy) 33
5. Keats' former RW 31
6. Dick Irvin (30 yo) 27
7. Keats' RW 21
7. XXX 21
No typo, Keats was really that far ahead of everyone. Not as good as the NHA or PCHA, but George Hay, Joe Simpson, and Dick Irvin were all in their prime.

1923 WCHL
1. Keat's RW 43 in 29 games (1.48 PPG)
2. Duke Keats 37 in 25 games (1.48 PPG)
3. George Hay (25 yo) 36 in 30 games (1.20 PPG)
4. Newsy Lalonde (35 yo) 35
5. Harry Oliver 32
6. Joe Simpson 29
7. Keats' LW 28
8. Bill Cook (28 yo) 25

1922-23 was Bill Cook's first professional season (at the age of 28).

1924 WCHL
1. Bill Cook 40
2. Harry Oliver 34
3. Duke Keats 31
3. George Hay 31
5. Keats' former RW 26
6. XXX 25
7. Bernie Morris (34 yo) 23

The PCHA folded after the season and its talent was absorbed into the WCHL. The 1925 and 1926 WCHL was probably stronger than the NHL at that point.

1925 WCHL
1. Mickey MacKay 33
1. Harry Oliver 33
3. Duke Keats (29 yo) 32
4. Bill Cook (29 yo) 32
5. Frank Fredrickson (29 yo) 30
6. Frank Boucher (24 yo) 28
7. Keats' LW 23
8. Joe Simpson 23
9. George Hay 22 (in 20 of 28 games)

1926 WHL
1. Bill Cook 44
2. Dick Irvin 36
3. Corb Denneny (32 yo) 34
4. Keats' RW 33
5. George Hay 31
6. Duke Keats 29
7. Harry Oliver 25
8. Frank Fredrickson 24
9. Frank Boucher 22
10. Keat's former RW 22

The WHL folded after the season. 1926-27 is the first year of the consolidated NHL

1927 Consolidated NHL
1. Bill Cook*-NYR 37
2. Dick Irvin*-CBH 36

3. Howie Morenz*-MTL 32
4. Frank Fredrickson*-TOT 31
5. Babe Dye*-CBH 30
6. Frank Boucher*-NYR 28
Ace Bailey*-TOR 28
8. Billy Burch*-NYA 27
9. Harry Oliver *-BOS 24
Duke Keats*-TOT 24


1928 Consolidated NHL
1. Howie Morenz*-MTL 51
2. Aurele Joliat*-MTL 39
3. Frank Boucher*-NYR 35
George Hay*-DTC 35

5. Nels Stewart*-MTM 34
6. Keats' former teammate 30
7. Bun Cook*-NYR 28

8. XXX 26
9. Frank Finnigan-OTS 25
10. Bill Cook*-NYR 24
Duke Keats*-TOT 24


Keats was 31 in 1925-26 and clearly on the downswing of his career as you can see from his decline the previous season in the WHL.

I bolded the top 10 NHL scorers in the first two seasons after consolidation who played with Keats in the WCHL/WHL. It is more than half of them.
[
Full ATD-style profile with more quotes: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=216


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Old
02-08-2014, 03:22 PM
  #102
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Perhaps the best way is to compare their international accolades? This is what I have:

Nedomansky
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring in the 1972 Olympics (behind Valeri Kharlamov of the stacked USSR)
  • World Championship Directorate Best Forward (1974)
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)
Larionov
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring at the 1988 Olympics (behind linemate Krutov)
  • World Championship All-Star Forward (1983, 1986)
Petrov
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

____________

Here is their domestic All-Star recognition:

Nedomansky: CSSR league All Star RW (1969). CSSR All Star C (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974).

1969 was the first year the CSSR had All-Star teams, and Nedomansky was already 25 by then. He defected to North America after the 1974 season. So that's 5/6 years an All-Star with only Jaroslav Holik beating him for the center spot once. Clearly Nedomansky was the best center in Czechoslovakia before he defected.

Petrov: USSR league 1st Team All Star C (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979).

Maltsev had the 1st Team Spot in 1970, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1978, 1980, and 1981. Kharlamov had it in 1976 when apparently they didn't care about positions.

Larionov: USSR league All Star C (1983, 1986, 1987, 1988).

Similar to Petrov on paper, but much worse competition - he lost out to Nikolai Drozdetsky in 1984 and Anatoli Semenov in 1985. On the other hand, Larionov had just come off 3 straight All-Star nods when the Iron Curtain began to fall.
After looking at this, Larionov is pretty clearly the least decorated in international play, right?

Larionov was easily the best of the 3 defensively. Petrov was said to be a pure one-way player prior to the Summit Series, then improved afterwards, but how much? There was a joke that the Czechs created the left-wing lock because Nedomansky was bad defensively even while leading the domestic league and national team in goals. When Nedomansky came to North America at the age of 30, there was a lament that nobody had bothered to teach him defense when he still had his speed.

Yet, Larionov is easily the worse of the three offensively. Nedomansky and Petrov both led their domestic league in scoring multiple times, and Nedomansky at least had some outrageously productive tournaments in the early 70s. Larionov generally finished well behind his linemates in scoring both domestically and internationally.

Perhaps, it is easier to credit offense than defense, but Larionov was less decorated in international tournaments.


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02-08-2014, 03:40 PM
  #103
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Only fair to also post the International awards records of the available NHLers:

Mats Sundin

1991 Canada Cup All-Star
1996 World Cup All-Star
2002 Olympics All-Star (the Olympics All-Stars started in 1992, too late for most of the available players unfortunately)

1992 World Championships Directorate best forward
2003 World Championships Directorate best forward and best player
World Championships All-Star (1992, 1998, 2003)

Remember, the World Championships lost a lot of their luster when the Iron Curtain fell in the early 90s, so I wouldn't put nearly as much stock into Sundin's World Championships record as I would Nedomansky's, Larionov's or Petrov's. Sundin's record in best-on-best tournaments is quite impressive, however.

Darryl Sittler

1976 Canada Cup All-Star

Just one tournament, but a nice feather in his cap.

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02-08-2014, 05:13 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Mats Sundin

1992 World Championships Directorate best forward
Not that it matter a lot but that should be 1991 best forward. When he had 7 goals and 12 points in 10 games and dangled Fetisov on a beauty end to end rush for the tournament winner in the last game the Soviet Union ice hockey team ever played. 1992 best forward was Jarkko Varvio.

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02-08-2014, 05:19 PM
  #105
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Not that it matter a lot but that should be 1991 best forward. When he had 7 goals and 12 points in 10 games and dangled Fetisov on a beauty end to end rush for the tournament winner in the last game the Soviet Union ice hockey team ever played. 1992 best forward was Jarkko Varvio.
Unless you have an alternate source for the WC awards, I am going to assume that what we have on hfboards is correct. And what we have is that Kamensky was named best forward in 1991 and Sundin was in 1992. Varvio was a WC All-Star in 1992, but was not named best forward.

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02-08-2014, 05:32 PM
  #106
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Yeah, but playing in the tail-end of the 80ies AND having his best season in 92-93 (which should TOTALLY be counted for a Art Ross, by the way) will tend to do that for a goalscoring center.

I'm just trying to be somewhat fair to every player. I've been somewhat critical of "spike" players so far and not doing the same for Lafontaine would be intellectually dishonest. Part of me want to put him in the Top-3 (at the very least) of this round right away. The other says "meh, maybe Top-60, not sure".

If anything, HO's wrap up of Primeau, Lemaire, Zetterberg and Lafontaine is extremely interesting -- possibly the most well-articulated post of the whole project, even if I do agree with some determinations in it. Now, I don't think Primeau has a case over Lafontaine. Lemaire has a bit of the Larionov syndrome (certainly won't lead his team in scoring while playing with Lafleur...).

Even so Pat is 10th in goals in his time in the NHL against his peers, even with all that time missed and his shortened seasons (including his rookie one were he played in the Olympics).

In his peak, 88-93 (so a pretty good 6 year consecutive sample) he was 5th in goals.

I'd venture to say that almost every player in the top 5 in goals (and points) for a 6 year period, any time in the NHL is worthy of serious top 60 consideration, even at the ultra competitive center position.

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02-08-2014, 05:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Unless you have an alternate source for the WC awards, I am going to assume that what we have on hfboards is correct. And what we have is that Kamensky was named best forward in 1991 and Sundin was in 1992. Varvio was a WC All-Star in 1992, but was not named best forward.
OK, that's possible. Sometimes you get lost in the woods. Sundin's 1991 was more memorable than his 1992 one though, but that's only my vague opinion.

Quote:
Remember, the World Championships lost a lot of their luster when the Iron Curtain fell in the early 90s, so I wouldn't put nearly as much stock into Sundin's World Championships record as I would Nedomansky's, Larionov's or Petrov's.
But the 1991 Soviet roster was pretty good. It had players like Fetisov, Kasatonov, Konstantinov, Malakhov, Bure, Bykov, Kamensky, Makarov, Zhamnov and Kozlov on it. That's decent competition.

The Canadian team had some good players too like Vernon, Blake, Sakic, Linden, Fleury and Larmer.

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02-08-2014, 06:17 PM
  #108
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I'd add to this -- WWI didn't quite had the effect of WWII.

But if there's one player who probably lost something due to WWI, it's Duke Keats. Started pretty well on its first season in the NHL --- 5th in goals scored, behind 2 (or is it 3?) players that are already in (and another one not eligible), and remember the guy was more of playmaker --- but then had to fly overseas, only to come back in the Big-4.

Duke Keats is a Top-60 center of all time. It's probably one round too early to vote him in as a Top-4, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's a slightly modified copy of what I posted about Duke Keats in the preliminary thread - I highly doubt he'll end up in my top 4 this round, but I do think he deserves to be in our top 60 somewhere:



There are quite a few centers best known for playing in the PCHA or NHA who deserve consideration, but there is one guy best known for his play in the WCHL/WHL who deserves to be in our top 60, in my personal opinion.

That man is Duke Keats, known as the "Bad Man" of the Prairie leagues for his nastiness on the ice.


  • Keats was a WCHL/WHL All-Star every season from 1922-1926. (In 1926, it seems like he was probably the All-Star spare with Fredrickson getting the 1st Team C spot).
  • He was inducted into the HHOF in 1958, before several of his contemporaries who starred in the NHL (like Cy Denneny).






In addition to being a "bad man" and a solid backchecker (the newspaper that selected the WCHL All-Star teams picked Keats over Dick Irvin in 1923 because of his backchecking), Keats appears to have been a top 10 scorer in the world for a decade.



Full ATD-style profile with more quotes: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=216

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02-08-2014, 06:23 PM
  #109
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Even so Pat is 10th in goals in his time in the NHL against his peers, even with all that time missed and his shortened seasons (including his rookie one were he played in the Olympics).

In his peak, 88-93 (so a pretty good 6 year consecutive sample) he was 5th in goals.

I'd venture to say that almost every player in the top 5 in goals (and points) for a 6 year period, any time in the NHL is worthy of serious top 60 consideration, even at the ultra competitive center position.
I don't think anybody is NOT giving Lafontaine consideration at this point....

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02-08-2014, 07:31 PM
  #110
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I'd add to this -- WWI didn't quite had the effect of WWII.

But if there's one player who probably lost something due to WWI, it's Duke Keats.
Frank Frederickson lost a lot to WWI. The war took him away from hockey until he was 24 years old. He spent one season after the war as an amateur where he roflstomped everybody on the way to the Allan Cup, and then signed with the PCHA and was immediately a 1st team all-star and led the league in scoring as a rookie despite missing the first three games of a 24 game schedule (which would be like missing 10 games of an 82 game schedule) because he signed right as the season was beginning and it took him a while to travel to Victoria.

He managed to have a nice seven season peak, as it was, until well into his 30's, but he could have been considerably more decorated had he been able to start playing pro hockey in his early 20's. Bill Cook is more-or-less in the same boat, though he's obviously not directly relevant to this project.

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02-08-2014, 10:12 PM
  #111
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Frank Frederickson lost a lot to WWI. The war took him away from hockey until he was 24 years old. He spent one season after the war as an amateur where he roflstomped everybody on the way to the Allan Cup (...)
Fredrikson wasn't in one of the two big leagues before going to war. Keats proved he could more than hold his own.

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02-09-2014, 04:00 AM
  #112
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Fredrikson wasn't in one of the two big leagues before going to war. Keats proved he could more than hold his own.
Keats lost two seasons to the military, Frederickson three.

Frederickson didn't really have the chance to play big time hockey early in his life. He grew up in Winnipeg, far away from the center of the hockey world, in an Icelandic community that still faced ethnic discrimination at that time. He joined the all-Icelandic team, the Winnipeg Falcons, presumably because that was his best chance to play hockey.

Keats' one good season in the NHA adds something to his legacy, but Frederickson was already a star-level hockey player in his own right by the time he got back from the war. Frank was so dominant in the last year he played for the Falcons (en route to the Allan Cup and the first Olympic gold medal in ice hockey) that his signing with the Coast league was newsworthy, and his debut in Victoria highly anticipated.

Both men lost prime seasons to the war.

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02-09-2014, 08:21 AM
  #113
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Keats lost two seasons to the military, Frederickson three.

Frederickson didn't really have the chance to play big time hockey early in his life. He grew up in Winnipeg, far away from the center of the hockey world, in an Icelandic community that still faced ethnic discrimination at that time. He joined the all-Icelandic team, the Winnipeg Falcons, presumably because that was his best chance to play hockey.

Keats' one good season in the NHA adds something to his legacy, but Frederickson was already a star-level hockey player in his own right by the time he got back from the war. Frank was so dominant in the last year he played for the Falcons (en route to the Allan Cup and the first Olympic gold medal in ice hockey) that his signing with the Coast league was newsworthy, and his debut in Victoria highly anticipated.

Both men lost prime seasons to the war.
One man lost 2 prime years (and actually, it 's 2.4 years or something like that)after proving he could more than hold his own in one of the two best leagues at the time.

The other lost 3 prime years after .... not proving he could hold his own in one of the two best leagues.

That's... really just that simple. No need to be anything else in the debate.

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02-09-2014, 10:56 AM
  #114
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Just wondering people's thought on Sundin as it looks like there is a strong push to represent some early guys pre NHL.

We don't know how they all would have fared in an all Canadian league fully integrated for their entire careers.

We do know how Sundin fared, on lousy teams with not much support and how he did in international tournaments as well.

He is in my top 4 this round as is Zetts and probably Igor and Petrov although 3 and 4 are still open.

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02-09-2014, 11:52 AM
  #115
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That's... really just that simple. No need to be anything else in the debate.
Actually, yes there is. Frederickson's case is a lot like Stastny's. We have strong reason to believe that at least in the season he played as an amateur before signing with the PCHL, that he was already a star-calibre player. This all happened as late as it did in his life (at the age of 24) because of the three years he spent in the military.

We can debate Keats vs. Frederickson directly next round if you like. There is little doubt which was the better player.

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02-09-2014, 12:01 PM
  #116
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Actually, yes there is. Frederickson's case is a lot like Stastny's. We have strong reason to believe that at least in the season he played as an amateur before signing with the PCHL, that he was already a star-calibre player. This all happened as late as it did in his life (at the age of 24) because of the three years he spent in the military.

We can debate Keats vs. Frederickson directly next round if you like. There is little doubt which was the better player.
I think you're right about your ultimate conclusion -- this said, my point was mostly about the war, and who lost more because of it.

And of course, Fredrikson played in a better league directly after the war, which has a direct influence on how those two specific players must be rated.

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02-09-2014, 12:07 PM
  #117
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Just wondering people's thought on Sundin as it looks like there is a strong push to represent some early guys pre NHL.

We don't know how they all would have fared in an all Canadian league fully integrated for their entire careers.

We do know how Sundin fared, on lousy teams with not much support and how he did in international tournaments as well.

He is in my top 4 this round as is Zetts and probably Igor and Petrov although 3 and 4 are still open.
If anything, every representation regarding Keats came with the caveat that it was possibly one round too early to rank him Top-4, and Sturm just basically said that the Fredrikson/Keats comparisons would be more appropriate for next round.

I fail to see how that equates to a push.

As for Sundin, I'm not sure he's top-3 in the NHL 80ies onwards group, which makes him a non Top-4 candidate for this round (in my eyes at least).

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02-09-2014, 12:11 PM
  #118
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Consensus call

Hard to figure a clear consensus in this round...

But can we collectively agree to two "European" in the Top-4 ? By European, i mean "played their best years in Europe", not "Henrik Zetterberg and al." ?

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02-09-2014, 12:12 PM
  #119
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If anything, every representation regarding Keats came with the caveat that it was possibly one round too early to rank him Top-4, and Sturm just basically said that the Fredrikson/Keats comparisons would be more appropriate for next round.

I fail to see how that equates to a push.

As for Sundin, I'm not sure he's top-3 in the NHL 80ies onwards group, which makes him a non Top-4 candidate for this round (in my eyes at least).
Agreed on Sundin, not Top-4 here. But definitely Top-8.

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02-09-2014, 02:47 PM
  #120
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Hard to figure a clear consensus in this round...

But can we collectively agree to two "European" in the Top-4 ? By European, i mean "played their best years in Europe", not "Henrik Zetterberg and al." ?
I might have all 3 of the "best years in Europe" players in my top 4 this round, though it's possible some combination of Savard/Sittler might knock Larionov out.

As for Sundin... he'll probably be in my top 8. I honestly think that his NHL career isn't all that much better than Pierre Turgeon's, if it is better at all, but an All-Star in 3 best on best tournaments? yeah, he should be in the top 60 (or I guess top 56 if he's going to be in my top 8 this round).

I'd love to have all of Keats/Fredrickson/MacKay in my top 8, not sure if there's room. Keats and Fredrickson each have a season where they were probably the best scorer in the world, which is something big at this point.

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02-09-2014, 03:02 PM
  #121
Hardyvan123
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the case for Mats sundin.

Like I have posted earlier he was consistently very good to excellent over a 15 year period, despite that his peak VsX is still very good for this round.

He is 39th all time among centers in the vsX score and one can make the argument that he could have been higher if he ever had any decent line mates of a PP QB on his team for any length of time.

His scoring finishes are as follows and over a 15 year consecutive stretch

92 finished 41st overall with only 28 Canadians ahead of him so he would have been 29th in a Canadian to Canadian comp over time (for a common standard). Pretty decent for a guy in his 2nd year in the NHL and just 20 years of age.

93 11th overall, 7th on Canadian list
94 28-20
95 23-15
96 28-16
97 7- 4
98 14- 7
99 11-5
00 17-8
01 38-15
02 4-3
03 25-11
04 12-6

lockoput year is missing so we have to give him some credit here as well

06 31-15
07 36-19
08 20-12

Does anyone have that period of consistency for as long here this round?

Mats wasn't great in the playoffs but he wasn't horrible either and his international play really stacks up well this round, and overall as well.

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02-09-2014, 04:07 PM
  #122
MXD
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
the case for Mats sundin.

Like I have posted earlier he was consistently very good to excellent over a 15 year period, despite that his peak VsX is still very good for this round.

He is 39th all time among centers in the vsX score and one can make the argument that he could have been higher if he ever had any decent line mates of a PP QB on his team for any length of time.

His scoring finishes are as follows and over a 15 year consecutive stretch

92 finished 41st overall with only 28 Canadians ahead of him so he would have been 29th in a Canadian to Canadian comp over time (for a common standard). Pretty decent for a guy in his 2nd year in the NHL and just 20 years of age.

93 11th overall, 7th on Canadian list
94 28-20
95 23-15
96 28-16
97 7- 4
98 14- 7
99 11-5
00 17-8
01 38-15
02 4-3
03 25-11
04 12-6

lockoput year is missing so we have to give him some credit here as well

06 31-15
07 36-19
08 20-12

Does anyone have that period of consistency for as long here this round?

Mats wasn't great in the playoffs but he wasn't horrible either and his international play really stacks up well this round, and overall as well.
PP QB?

He played with one of Duchesne, Murphy, Schneider, Kaberle/McCabe for most of his career! That's pretty much above-average D-support for that era.

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02-09-2014, 05:19 PM
  #123
Canadiens1958
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Voted

Vote 13 sent.

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02-09-2014, 07:24 PM
  #124
Hardyvan123
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Hard to figure a clear consensus in this round...

But can we collectively agree to two "European" in the Top-4 ? By European, i mean "played their best years in Europe", not "Henrik Zetterberg and al." ?
Zetts is probably the best guy from Eurpoe in this round, he showed elite play in a fully integrated league, no guessing going on with him as with Petrov or Igor.

sundin is in the mix as well, probably ahead of the two guys who played most or all of their time in Europe.

As for my saying their was a push for the pre NHL guys, it's been stated quite often and quiet strongly how these guys NEED to make the top 60 and we are getting really close to the end.

The quality of play (division of Canadian talent in 2 or 3 leagues for much of their careers) and resumes of those guys surely don't match up to what Sundin did, does it?

IMO either they get in on their merits or they don't.

Big Ned is too 1 dimensional, probably the Czech Phil Esposito of the 70's, for me to get into the top 4.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 02-09-2014 at 07:35 PM.
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02-09-2014, 07:37 PM
  #125
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Zetts is probably the best guy from Eurpoe in this round, he showed elite play in a fully integrated league, no guessing going on with him as with Petrov or Igor.

sundin is in the mix as well, probably ahead of the two guys who played most or all of their time in Europe.

As for my saying their was a push for the pre NHL guys, it's been stated quite often and quiet strongly how these guys NEED to make the top 60 and we are getting really close to the end.

The quality of play (division of Canadian talent in 2 or 3 leagues for much of their careers) and resumes of those guys surely don't match up to what Sundin did, does it?

IMO either they get in on their merits or they don't.
Look at it this way - we have 4 players from the 1910-1926 period in our top 23 (Nighbor, Taylor, Lalonde, Malone), and so far, we have zero after #23. Seems we are due, ESPECIALLY since that was a generation that was very heavy on "centers" compared to wings, largely since we are counting rovers as centers.

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