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Hart Trophy worthy season without winning one.

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Old
02-08-2014, 11:43 PM
  #26
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodOl22 View Post
Jagr in 05-06.
Lemieux in 88-89.
Turco for both the Hart and Vezina in 02-03.
Interesting. I just always felt Turco was a "good" goalie who never really had to steal a game or be dominant behind a pretty good Dallas team. Never thought of him as an MVP type.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
By the definition of the award - he should have.
You know sometime there are years where you say that the Hart winner seemed to have gone to the best player. Other times when it seems like it went to the most valuable player to his team who wasn't the best in the league (ie. 1992 Messier). However in 1993 it was one out of many years where you have to say it went both ways. Mario had 56 points in his final 20 games. He led the Penguins to 17 straight wins, still an NHL record. There was no way it was going to anyone else but him.

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Old
02-09-2014, 04:21 AM
  #27
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You know, I get that there is a save % case for Turco to win the Vezina in 2003, but no goalie is ever going to be a serious Hart candidate only playing 55 games
Miikka Kiprusoff would have been 3rd place on a 5-3-1 ballot in 2003-04 at only 38 games. As it stands, he finished 4th despite having a teammate in 2nd place.

Dominik Hasek and John Vanbiesbrouck were Hart nominees at 58 and 57 GP respectively in a season in which the league leader played 74 GP.


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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Interesting. I just always felt Turco was a "good" goalie who never really had to steal a game or be dominant behind a pretty good Dallas team. Never thought of him as an MVP type.
Turco: 31-10-10, 1.72 GAA, .932 SPCT
Tugnutt: 15-10-5, 2.47 GAA, .896 SPCT

Dallas was 33-12-12 when Turco injured his ankle. They went 7-8-3 while he was out, and then picked up 13 of a possible 14 points when he returned to finish the season (with Turco posting a .939 in this stretch) and retake the #1 Seed in the Western Conference.

He was pretty valuable, and it's a bit telling of the mindset of the voters that he lost the Vezina by such a big margin to a high-GP, Hart-nominated goaltender with a .914 SPCT (league average: .909 - insert argument about shot recording; insert counterargument about fewer Devils' penalties and the fact that Turco saw more shorthanded rubber than Brodeur despite the difference in GP).

Hell, in addition to Brodeur's 24 to 3 Vezina lead over Turco, Brodeur had three times the number of 1st place Hart votes as Markus Naslund, the Pearson winner. They were a little eager to pay Brodeur back for excellent work in the Hasek years - and they did it at the expense of others. But the voters' decision does not change the value that Marty Turco provided his team. Transplanting that year into one that does not carry such an obvious storyline will undoubtedly reward the goaltender with the .932 with the rightful attention.

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Old
02-09-2014, 04:31 AM
  #28
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I think Naslund should have won Hart over Frosberg in 2003... A good winger, a Decent Center and nothing after that.

WHile I think Forsberg deserved the Pearson over Naslund.

Go figure.

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02-09-2014, 04:54 AM
  #29
kmad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
I think Naslund should have won Hart over Frosberg in 2003... A good winger, a Decent Center and nothing after that.

WHile I think Forsberg deserved the Pearson over Naslund.

Go figure.
I've heard the Pearson is voted on about a month before the season ends. Which makes sense, because the Avs overtook the Canucks for the division late in the stretch drive, and Forsberg and Hejduk didn't pass him in points/goals until the final week.

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02-09-2014, 08:58 AM
  #30
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Daniel Sedin probably should have won it in 2011. Perry wasn't an outrage by any means but I think if he scored only 1 goal less, or changed one goal for an assist or two, he probably wouldn't have won it. 50 looks pretty good to the eye.

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02-09-2014, 03:55 PM
  #31
Hammer Time
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Ray Bourque 1990
(he was one vote away from winning it in the real world)

Jonathan Quick 2012
(Kings were 29th in scoring in the regular season, still made the playoffs. In hindsight, knowing how that Kings playoff run went it makes even more sense, but obviously the voters didn't know that when they were voting.)

Sidney Crosby 2010
(finished just 3 points behind H. Sedin for the Art Ross. But Crosby had weaker linemates, and he went 8/10 in the shootout, which was probably worth another four or five points in the standings for the Penguins, while Henrik is useless in shootouts.)

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02-09-2014, 04:18 PM
  #32
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Malkin was insane in 2012. No one was beating him.

If anyone was robbed in 2010 it was OV. He missed a few games which caused him to lose both the Richard and Ross so the voters didn't choose him. Luckily the players were smart enough not to just look at who won one of those trophies

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02-09-2014, 04:20 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer Time View Post
Sidney Crosby 2010
(finished just 3 points behind H. Sedin for the Art Ross. But Crosby had weaker linemates, and he went 8/10 in the shootout, which was probably worth another four or five points in the standings for the Penguins, while Henrik is useless in shootouts.)
Ovechkin was clearly the best player in 09-10 regardless.

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Old
02-09-2014, 06:48 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer Time View Post
Jonathan Quick 2012
(Kings were 29th in scoring in the regular season, still made the playoffs. In hindsight, knowing how that Kings playoff run went it makes even more sense, but obviously the voters didn't know that when they were voting.)
He was my pick that year, but I think the voters wrote him off when San Jose took the home-and-home series from Los Angeles in the final two games of the season. It cost the Kings the division and dropped his save percentage from one point above Lundqvist's to one point below.

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Old
02-09-2014, 10:38 PM
  #35
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Turco: 31-10-10, 1.72 GAA, .932 SPCT
Tugnutt: 15-10-5, 2.47 GAA, .896 SPCT

Dallas was 33-12-12 when Turco injured his ankle. They went 7-8-3 while he was out, and then picked up 13 of a possible 14 points when he returned to finish the season (with Turco posting a .939 in this stretch) and retake the #1 Seed in the Western Conference.

He was pretty valuable, and it's a bit telling of the mindset of the voters that he lost the Vezina by such a big margin to a high-GP, Hart-nominated goaltender with a .914 SPCT (league average: .909 - insert argument about shot recording; insert counterargument about fewer Devils' penalties and the fact that Turco saw more shorthanded rubber than Brodeur despite the difference in GP).

Hell, in addition to Brodeur's 24 to 3 Vezina lead over Turco, Brodeur had three times the number of 1st place Hart votes as Markus Naslund, the Pearson winner. They were a little eager to pay Brodeur back for excellent work in the Hasek years - and they did it at the expense of others. But the voters' decision does not change the value that Marty Turco provided his team. Transplanting that year into one that does not carry such an obvious storyline will undoubtedly reward the goaltender with the .932 with the rightful attention.
Alright but be as it may, taking myself back to that season, it he was never the big story and never a guy who was going to threaten the Hart. I'm not sure if being a lot better than Ron Tugnutt is all that impressive either. I don't know, Brodeur was the man for me that year for the Vezina.

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Old
02-10-2014, 12:01 AM
  #36
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright but be as it may, taking myself back to that season, it he was never the big story and never a guy who was going to threaten the Hart. I'm not sure if being a lot better than Ron Tugnutt is all that impressive either. I don't know, Brodeur was the man for me that year for the Vezina.
He was a lot better than everybody, but if you're going to say he was "behind a pretty good Dallas team," don't be surprised when I compare him to his backup. And being a lot better than Corey Schwab isn't all that impressive either, but we don't see the same kind of separation in New Jersey's numbers in 2002-03.

Brodeur: 41-23-9, 2.02 GAA, .914 SPCT
Schwab: 5-3-1, 1.47 GAA, .933 SPCT (average opponent: 81 points)

Doesn't look like Turco was the only one behind a pretty good team. He just wasn't hockey's Susan Lucci, so his season didn't get the ink that it deserved. Hell, a lot of his interviews on the topic involved questions like, How do you feel about Brodeur not having any Vezina Trophies?

And if you think Brodeur's always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride status wasn't the reason that Brodeur was the big story in 2003 instead of Turco, consider Brodeur's 2000-01 season with the .906 (same on the road, so there's no arena effect) and the top-five Hart nomination and 7/30 1st place Vezina votes that came with it. People wanted him to win something of an individual nature before he bowed out, and there was no guarantee that he'd have some major resurgence years like he did in 2007 and 2008 (his first times in the top-10 in SPCT since 1998).

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Old
02-10-2014, 12:13 AM
  #37
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He was a lot better than everybody, but if you're going to say he was "behind a pretty good Dallas team," don't be surprised when I compare him to his backup. And being a lot better than Corey Schwab isn't all that impressive either, but we don't see the same kind of separation in New Jersey's numbers in 2002-03.

Brodeur: 41-23-9, 2.02 GAA, .914 SPCT
Schwab: 5-3-1, 1.47 GAA, .933 SPCT (average opponent: 81 points)

Doesn't look like Turco was the only one behind a pretty good team. He just wasn't hockey's Susan Lucci, so his season didn't get the ink that it deserved. Hell, a lot of his interviews on the topic involved questions like, How do you feel about Brodeur not having any Vezina Trophies?

And if you think Brodeur's always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride status wasn't the reason that Brodeur was the big story in 2003 instead of Turco, consider Brodeur's 2000-01 season with the .906 (same on the road, so there's no arena effect) and the top-five Hart nomination and 7/30 1st place Vezina votes that came with it. People wanted him to win something of an individual nature before he bowed out, and there was no guarantee that he'd have some major resurgence years like he did in 2007 and 2008 (his first times in the top-10 in SPCT since 1998).
Well for starters a goalie has to have more than 55 games under his belt if he's going to win the Hart generally. I thought Tim Thomas had a shot in 2011, but he only played 51 games. And he had a better year than Turco in 2003. Secondly, I just think with Roy on his way to retirement and Hasek no longer a threat to win a Vezina that this was now Brodeur's league and he sort of proved it for a while don't you think? He won three more Vezinas after 2003. If you had to pick the best goalie in the world around this time would it have been Turco or Brodeur?

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02-10-2014, 12:13 AM
  #38
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^^^ Susan Lucci? Always a Bridesmaid? Honestly quoipourquoi. Stahp. Wat dat?

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02-10-2014, 12:21 AM
  #39
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Iginla in 01-02 and 07-08

07-08 Iginla dragged that Flames team, kicking and screaming to the playoffs. Scored 50 goals with Daymond Langkow, Alex Tanguay and Kristian Huselius as his support up front. They were no Nik Backstrom.

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02-10-2014, 12:25 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Well for starters a goalie has to have more than 55 games under his belt if he's going to win the Hart generally.
You know, I've actually made a post about this in this very thread...


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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I thought Tim Thomas had a shot in 2011, but he only played 51 games.
57.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I just think with Roy on his way to retirement and Hasek no longer a threat to win a Vezina that this was now Brodeur's league and he sort of proved it for a while don't you think? He won three more Vezinas after 2003. If you had to pick the best goalie in the world around this time would it have been Turco or Brodeur?
Is this relevant when determining the 2003 Vezina and Hart Trophies, or does everything involving Brodeur need to be evaluated over a cumulation of multiple seasons?

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02-10-2014, 12:26 AM
  #41
quoipourquoi
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^^^ Susan Lucci? Always a Bridesmaid? Honestly quoipourquoi. Stahp. Wat dat?
Ha! Erica Kane has only been married, like, eleven times!

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Old
02-10-2014, 12:46 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
Iginla in 01-02 and 07-08

07-08 Iginla dragged that Flames team, kicking and screaming to the playoffs. Scored 50 goals with Daymond Langkow, Alex Tanguay and Kristian Huselius as his support up front. They were no Nik Backstrom.
Nik Backstrom was nothing special in 2007-08 and not much better than those 4 players.

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Old
02-10-2014, 03:33 PM
  #43
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
57.
Alright sorry, 57. That's still a little low considering a player plays the better part of 80 games and how often has a player won the Hart with 57 games in an 80-82 game NHL season? Mario in 1993, that's about it. It's hard to do this. Just like Thomas in 2011 Turco also had a year that was pretty weak with Hart trophy candidates. Neither won it though. When Hasek won the Hart he had 67 and 72 game seasons as well as taking an otherwise draft lotteryesque team to the postseason. It's hard for a goalie to win is all I am saying. And I wouldn't say Turco was better than Brodeur that year either.


Quote:
Is this relevant when determining the 2003 Vezina and Hart Trophies, or does everything involving Brodeur need to be evaluated over a cumulation of multiple seasons?
It was just in response to you saying that the media et al wanted him to finally win something individual on his own. I just don't think this is true, I think his 2003 season was warranted and over the next few years he was the best goalie in the game so I am just showing you that 2003 wasn't an abberation it was an actual great season on its own.

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Old
02-10-2014, 07:31 PM
  #44
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Parent in 74 and 75, Robinson in 77, Potvin in 78 and 79, Bossy in 82, Yzerman in 89.

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02-10-2014, 09:48 PM
  #45
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kovalev playing for montreal in 2007-2008

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02-11-2014, 08:26 PM
  #46
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Many have said Jagr in 2005-06 but I think he was even more deserving in 1999-00 and lost the Hart by 1 point despite winning the Pearson and Art Ross trophy while missing 19 games.

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02-11-2014, 08:27 PM
  #47
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kovalev playing for montreal in 2007-2008
That season Ovechkin fully deserved the Hart trophy. It was one of the best seasons post 2005-lockout and it happens to be Ovechkin's best season in the NHL.

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02-11-2014, 08:31 PM
  #48
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Ovechkin was clearly the best player in 09-10 regardless.
I disagree with this. Backstrom put up 100 points that season and the Capitals were an offensive powerhouse that season. Ovechkin did have a very strong and rather blazing 50 games stretch but the correct player won the Hart. Sedin carried the team in Vancouver in the much more defensive minded Conference.

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02-11-2014, 08:44 PM
  #49
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Lafleur led habs by 52 pts-he had more assists than shutt had pts-1979

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02-12-2014, 11:03 PM
  #50
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Doug Gilmour '93

Lead the Leafs with 132 points, +32


Borchevsky was 2nd on the team with 78 points
Glenn Anderson 3rd with 65 points


And a case could be made that Hasek deserved a few more Hart trophies during his time with the Sabres

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