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Retire Brad Park's #?

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Old
02-09-2014, 12:52 PM
  #51
nevesis
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Lundqvist needs to win a cup to have his number retired.

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02-09-2014, 01:00 PM
  #52
IMLACHnME
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Honor the player

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangers Fail View Post
If we're talking Rangers who deserve to have their numbers retired, first on line for me would be Bill Cook and Frank Boucher.
The number 7 is retired, in honor of Rod Gilbert. Had it been retired in honor of the Rangers' greatest player, none of the others - Phil Watson, Don Raleigh, Red Sullivan or Gilbert - would have had an opportunity to wear it.

That's why I would prefer it if numbers were not retired, but the deserving players would be honored by having a large jersey-shaped banner, with the name and number, hanging from the rafters. But that would also mean that any player, in this case a Ranger, who wanted to wear a number 1, 7 or 9 or whatever would have to establish himself as a star before being allowed to wear the number. Unlike Evander Kane in Winnipeg.

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02-09-2014, 01:04 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Greschner over Park?

Anyone who ever saw both of them play with that opinion just doesn't get it.

If games played count, Hadfield is more deserving than Graves, too, not to mention I thought he was the more effective player.
We aren't discussing the better talents. We are discussing what the players did for the New York Rangers organization over the span of their entire career. Brad Park was great, and he also wasn't a memeber of the organization long enough to warrant his nunber being shared with Leetch in the rafters. Ratelle would be closer, he spent parts of 16 seasons as a Rangers player. Park spent parts of 8. Ron Greschner spent parts of 16 seasons as a Ranger.

"If games played count". Its not even a question, they do.

And before any of those players get discussed, players who lead this organization to one or more Stanley Cups, then managed the club, need to be discussed.

Bill Cook lead the Rangers to two Stanley Cups as a player and captain. Frank Boucher helped lead them to those same two Cups as a player and then managed and coached them to a third Stanley Cup.

Ivan Johnson was the backbone of the defense for two Cups, in a time when defensemen played nearly entire games. Iron men.

Ott Heller won two Cups and captained them to one of them.

Bryan Hextall Sr. was Andy Bathgate before Andy Bathgate. And has a ring to back it up.

Lynn Patrick helped lead them to the 1940 Cup. If he hadn't had to fight a war he may have had a longer career.

These are the trailblazers for the Rangers. Without these guys there may not be a Rangers club to discuss right now.

Conn Smyth, Lester Patrick, and Tex Rickard need recognition for forming the club. Emile Francis served as coach for a decade. And Herb Brooks needs to be recognized country-wide for his contributions.

Lester Patrick changed the face of hockey. It was his creativity that helped evolve the game to what it is.

All these guys deserve to be in the rafters infinitely more than Brad Park. Who was a great hockey player, and wasn't a Ranger quite long enough to cement any legacy.

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02-09-2014, 01:06 PM
  #54
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As for the original question:

1. No cup for Park.
2. Not with the Rangers long enough.

No jersey retirement. Kills me to apply this to Jean Ratelle, but he also should not have his # retired.

Henrik? The cup rule applies. However, if he plays 18 years in NY, owns all of the club records and such, it should be considered. #7 and #1 did not win cups either.

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02-09-2014, 01:06 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMLACHnME View Post
The number 7 is retired, in honor of Rod Gilbert. Had it been retired in honor of the Rangers' greatest player, none of the others - Phil Watson, Don Raleigh, Red Sullivan or Gilbert - would have had an opportunity to wear it.

That's why I would prefer it if numbers were not retired, but the deserving players would be honored by having a large jersey-shaped banner, with the name and number, hanging from the rafters. But that would also mean that any player, in this case a Ranger, who wanted to wear a number 1, 7 or 9 or whatever would have to establish himself as a star before being allowed to wear the number. Unlike Evander Kane in Winnipeg.
This i agree with And wish more clubs did this. It would be a way to publicly honor the players who came before without restricting players that come after.

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02-09-2014, 01:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Lundqvist needs to win a cup to have his number retired.
I agree. His resume right now is already very impressive, the Cup would make him a lock at his number being retired.

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02-09-2014, 01:30 PM
  #57
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I disagree that a player absolutely needs to win a Cup to have their number retired.

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02-09-2014, 01:35 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Lundqvist needs to win a cup to have his number retired.
I totally disagree. That being said I think he will win a cup and have his jersey retired!

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02-09-2014, 01:49 PM
  #59
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Park has to be one of the top 3 most complete players to wear the uniform. He did it all at a high level, 2nd only to a guy some say was the best to play the game. But he did it in a handful of years. I guess it comes down to what matters most, the term or the impact he made.

Henrik's #30 will be there, book it.

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02-09-2014, 01:50 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel View Post
This i agree with And wish more clubs did this. It would be a way to publicly honor the players who came before without restricting players that come after.
I actually like this. Keep the number in play but honour the talent that used it. Fans still see the deserving name in the rafters...so get JR 19 up there!

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02-09-2014, 01:53 PM
  #61
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I kind of like the idea of "honoring" but not retiring too. Maybe give the team discretion on whether a player may wear it. Makes it more special.

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02-09-2014, 02:14 PM
  #62
IMLACHnME
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Something to look forward to in 2014-15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratelleitlikeitis View Post
I actually like this. Keep the number in play but honour the talent that used it. Fans still see the deserving name in the rafters...so get JR 19 up there!
Imagine if, before the puck dropped to begin the 2014-15 Rangers season at MSG, large jersey-shaped banners were raised to the rafters in honor of the long-neglected Blueshirts: from Frank Boucher and Bill Cook, through to Bill Gadsby and Dean Prentice, and on to Jean Ratelle and Brad Park.

That would be a great day, like those dedicated to the Rangers who have gotten their due.

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02-09-2014, 02:19 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Lundqvist needs to win a cup to have his number retired.
Sorry but thats BS for a bunch of reasons.

Specifically that goaltenders cant win cups by themselves. But more importantly, if Lundqvist's next 7 seasons are even half as good as his first 8, his # will be retired.

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02-09-2014, 02:21 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
As for the original question:

1. No cup for Park.
2. Not with the Rangers long enough.

No jersey retirement. Kills me to apply this to Jean Ratelle, but he also should not have his # retired.

Henrik? The cup rule applies. However, if he plays 18 years in NY, owns all of the club records and such, it should be considered. #7 and #1 did not win cups either.
The "cup rule" when evaluating a single player's credentials is one of the dumbest rules to apply

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02-09-2014, 02:24 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
By the way, we don't win a Cup without Kovalev. He outscored Graves in those playoffs.
Totally agree and have said so many times. Messier's "guarantee" game was more about Kovalev than Messier if you watch it in retrospect.

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02-09-2014, 02:35 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Accomplished enough!!!!!!!!!????????????

The second best defenseman in the league over that span behind the best player to ever lace them up, and a hall-of famer, and his best years were as a Ranger, the very same years that propelled him into the Hall.
Again - only 7 1/4 years as a Ranger. Not long enough, IMHO. Not really disputing that he was second best in the league for quite a few of those years, but there aren't enough years as a Ranger for my liking coupled with the fact that he played elsewhere, for a single team, longer.

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If you think Messier is considered more of a Ranger than an Oiler anywhere outside of NY you are sadly mistaken, so your argument holds no water.
The "argument" that you're making is not one that I've made. Messier was here for 10 and there for 12 and won Cups in both places. He was brought in to end the drought and he did. He deserves it in both places and Park deserves it in neither.



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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
How many All-Star games did Graves play in as Ranger? How many times was he a top five player at his position? Now compare that to Park while he was a Ranger.
It's not really about stats now is it? Banners hang in the rafters because of what guys bring to the team and the franchise over the course of their career.

Was Terry O'Reilly a "top five player" at his position? How about Bernie Ferderko? Keith Magnuson? Etc... It's not always about stats and accolades it's also about heart, soul, and blood for the team. And Graves did have 17 points in the '93-'94 playoffs.

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02-09-2014, 02:37 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The "cup rule" when evaluating a single player's credentials is one of the dumbest rules to apply
Yup. Many, MANY players have their numbers retired without winning a Cup for their franchise. The St. Louis Blues have NEVER won a cup and have retired numbers. Canucks too. Etc...

Saying Henrik shouldn't go to the rafters when he'll lead the franchise in every significant goalie stat is asinine.

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02-09-2014, 07:10 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Lundqvist needs to win a cup to have his number retired.
I think if Hank retired today, he'd have his number retired tomorrow.

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02-09-2014, 07:55 PM
  #69
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If we didn't trade him, sure. Let's do Doug Weight while we're at it. There's about 20 # s that should be retired before Brad Park is mentioned.

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02-09-2014, 07:57 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Lundqvist needs to win a cup to have his number retired.
Go take down Gilbert and Giacomin first before we have ths discussion.

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02-09-2014, 08:09 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMLACHnME View Post
The number 7 is retired, in honor of Rod Gilbert. Had it been retired in honor of the Rangers' greatest player, none of the others - Phil Watson, Don Raleigh, Red Sullivan or Gilbert - would have had an opportunity to wear it.

That's why I would prefer it if numbers were not retired, but the deserving players would be honored by having a large jersey-shaped banner, with the name and number, hanging from the rafters. But that would also mean that any player, in this case a Ranger, who wanted to wear a number 1, 7 or 9 or whatever would have to establish himself as a star before being allowed to wear the number. Unlike Evander Kane in Winnipeg.
Agree completely. Aussie Rules football does this really well IMO. Once you become established in the senior team you get given a jumper # based on the quality/attributes that you sure with past players and so the club's history continues on the field. I used to love sitting with my dad at the footy and him talking about all the players he could remember from his youth who wore the same numbers.

Another nice touch is that in the locker room, each locker has the name and playing years of every player who has ever worn that number for the club.

Both nice touches that I'd love to see the Rangers/NHL adopt

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02-09-2014, 09:23 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I'm not endorsing what went on before the "nostalgia show". More than 2 Rangers' numbers should've been retired and, at this point, retiring them is pointless because of how long it's been overdue.

That doesn't mean that Messier, Richter, and Graves shouldn't be in the rafters. That team overcame 50+ years of futility and soul crushing losses.

But, whether or not Graves' # should be retired or not is a circular argument and, quite simply, a matter of opinion. Really no right or wrong there and I do understand the counter points to him not being there.
People complaining about the '94 nostalgia, the team that broke a 54-year Cup drought..then turn around and want #s of players who have been dead for ~40 years or retired for ~30 years, who most people have only seen in videos or read about, and if they actually did retire the numbers of 99% of fans today would say "Who? Oh..why is that happening now?"

If that's not nostalgia..

Honor them by creating a team Hall of Fame like some are saying and do a mass induction of guys like Cook/Boucher/Ratelle/Park/etc. Retiring them now feels like a case of too little, too late.

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02-10-2014, 08:46 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by ReubenNYC View Post
Sentimentality aside, and all due respect to his qualities as a person, Graves has no business having his number retired. Like someone else suggested, name a trophy for him if you want. But the #9 banner should be Bathgate's alone.

The only number that I think needs to get up there right now is Jean Ratelle's #19. Hall of Famer. 6th most games as a Ranger, 2nd in goals, 3rd in assists and points. Ahead of Bathgate, Messier and Graves (all of whom have retired numbers) on all four counts. Personally, I think it's disgraceful that he's not up there.

After #19, we can close the books for a while. Maybe Henrik someday, if he earns every penny on this new contract. But nobody else.
I can't disagree.

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02-10-2014, 03:17 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel View Post
We aren't discussing the better talents. We are discussing what the players did for the New York Rangers organization over the span of their entire career. Brad Park was great, and he also wasn't a memeber of the organization long enough to warrant his nunber being shared with Leetch in the rafters. Ratelle would be closer, he spent parts of 16 seasons as a Rangers player. Park spent parts of 8. Ron Greschner spent parts of 16 seasons as a Ranger.

"If games played count". Its not even a question, they do.

And before any of those players get discussed, players who lead this organization to one or more Stanley Cups, then managed the club, need to be discussed.

Bill Cook lead the Rangers to two Stanley Cups as a player and captain. Frank Boucher helped lead them to those same two Cups as a player and then managed and coached them to a third Stanley Cup.

Ivan Johnson was the backbone of the defense for two Cups, in a time when defensemen played nearly entire games. Iron men.

Ott Heller won two Cups and captained them to one of them.

Bryan Hextall Sr. was Andy Bathgate before Andy Bathgate. And has a ring to back it up.

Lynn Patrick helped lead them to the 1940 Cup. If he hadn't had to fight a war he may have had a longer career.

These are the trailblazers for the Rangers. Without these guys there may not be a Rangers club to discuss right now.

Conn Smyth, Lester Patrick, and Tex Rickard need recognition for forming the club. Emile Francis served as coach for a decade. And Herb Brooks needs to be recognized country-wide for his contributions.

Lester Patrick changed the face of hockey. It was his creativity that helped evolve the game to what it is.

All these guys deserve to be in the rafters infinitely more than Brad Park. Who was a great hockey player, and wasn't a Ranger quite long enough to cement any legacy.
Under your criteria, Messer does not belong.

Under no criteria does Graves belong ahead of Park, unless you count being a great guy.

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02-10-2014, 03:24 PM
  #75
chosen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Again - only 7 1/4 years as a Ranger. Not long enough, IMHO. Not really disputing that he was second best in the league for quite a few of those years, but there aren't enough years as a Ranger for my liking coupled with the fact that he played elsewhere, for a single team, longer.



The "argument" that you're making is not one that I've made. Messier was here for 10 and there for 12 and won Cups in both places. He was brought in to end the drought and he did. He deserves it in both places and Park deserves it in neither.





It's not really about stats now is it? Banners hang in the rafters because of what guys bring to the team and the franchise over the course of their career.

Was Terry O'Reilly a "top five player" at his position? How about Bernie Ferderko? Keith Magnuson? Etc... It's not always about stats and accolades it's also about heart, soul, and blood for the team. And Graves did have 17 points in the '93-'94 playoffs.
The Cup argument is beyond stupid. Should Hasek be retired in Buffalo? Bourque in Boston?

Graves was perhaps the 4th or 5th most important Ranger on a Cup team. If they lose game 7 to Vancouver, does that sway you away from Graves? That would mean a puck hitting a post instead of going in could determine who is worthy. And it was that close. If Park played 7 in N.Y. and only 3 In Boston, would that be a factor to you? If Orr got hurt in the finals against the Rangers and the Rangers won, would Park then deserve it. Some of you create rules out of thin air and then defend your stance as if it were somehow based in fact.

If 7 years is not enough and 10 is, where is your factual cutoff line?


Last edited by chosen: 02-10-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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