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MLB Discussion Thread Part III: Jeter announces retirement after 2014

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Old
02-15-2014, 10:53 PM
  #676
Todd Harvey
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
You wouldn't speak of the two in the same breath when it comes to genuine slugging even though the stat that measures slugging says they're identical? This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here.
Singles are factored into slugging percentage. It's one reason Jeter's even near Ripkin in 'statistical' slugging percentage, which underlines my point about Judy Jeter; that, and he has more triples, though surprisingly to me only 20 more than Ripkin.

But be real; when most people think of 'sluggers', they think power, homers & RBIs. And there, Ripkin CRUSHES Jeter. Has him beat by 175 Hrs and 434 RBI. Plus he has 79 more doubles (though that number will obviously shrink this year);

So it's not even a serious conversation.

But ya know, the All Hail Jeter NoMatter crowd really can't take too much of this LOL

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02-15-2014, 11:12 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
Singles are factored into slugging percentage. It's one reason Jeter's even near Ripkin in 'statistical' slugging percentage, which underlines my point about Judy Jeter; that, and he has more triples, though surprisingly to me only 20 more than Ripkin.

But be real; when most people think of 'sluggers', they think power, homers & RBIs. And there, Ripkin CRUSHES Jeter. Has him beat by 175 Hrs and 434 RBI. Plus he has 79 more doubles (though that number will obviously shrink this year);

So it's not even a serious conversation.

But ya know, the All Hail Jeter NoMatter crowd really can't take too much of this LOL
Yea, because singles are a hell of a lot better than making an out. Jeter is the better offensive player, without a doubt. He's also a much better runner. The question is, was Ripken's defense that much better that it makes up for Jeter's edge on the offensive side.

Jeter had a quick release and was as sure-handed as anyone but if you look at some of the opinions of mlb fans you'd think he was a complete scrub in the field.

The Jeter crowd isn't nearly as apalling as the anti-Jeter crowd. Here you are trying to paint Jeter as if he was Elvis Andrus or Luis Castillo at the plate.

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02-15-2014, 11:16 PM
  #678
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And I also find it incredibly amusing that people get ******** over his farewell tour. When Jeter goes to play his last game in Citi Field, do you think he's actually the one that benefits from the higher ticket prices? This farewell tour stuff is a way for opposing teams to make more money but you'll blame it on his ego...

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02-15-2014, 11:18 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Yeah, its not like he was compensated and rewarded for what he did.

So in other words, we need 9 months of pomp and pageantry to fully express our gratitude to the guy?
Not just Yankee fans.

Jeter is everything you want in a star player...in any sport.

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02-15-2014, 11:19 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
The question is, was Ripken's defense that much better that it makes up for Jeter's edge on the offensive side.
I see you have a habit of leaving out the critical info that ruins your argument when posing your 'questions'.

You mean Ripken's defense and his ENORMOUS power advantage.

Jeter doesn't have 'an edge' over Cal Ripkin at all.

Jeter lost the durability contest last year as well.

Not that there ever was one.

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02-15-2014, 11:28 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
I see you have a habit of leaving out the critical info that ruins your argument when posing your 'questions'.

You mean Ripken's defense and his ENORMOUS power advantage.

Jeter doesn't have 'an edge' over Cal Ripkin at all.

Jeter lost the durability contest last year as well.

Not that there ever was one.
You mean his ENORMOUS power advantage that is completely negated by Jeter being the better hitter?

I'm not a fan of some of the Sabre stuff, specifically WAR and their questionable defensive zone ratings but wOBA is a good stat. It's basically OPS without the arbitrary, "we'll add this stat on top of that stat because, why not?" Jeter is the better offensive player, he was a better hitter, he got on base more, and he ran the bases better. When you look at a player's offensive production, you look at all the PAs. You don't just look at the ones that went out of the park.

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02-15-2014, 11:35 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
You mean his ENORMOUS power advantage that is completely negated by Jeter being the better hitter?
A REAL hitter's job is to drive in runs for his team. That's what big-time, feared hitters are paid to do.

Jeter was far more of the effeminate, table-setter variety.

Why not quit pretending otherwise? He was terrific at it, as stated.
And he was clutch; no one could deny that.
But there are hitters, then there are HITTERS.

Trying to equate Jeter with Ripkin as a slugger is silly.

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02-15-2014, 11:41 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
A REAL hitter's job is to drive in runs for his team. That's what big-time, feared hitters are paid to do.

Jeter was far more of the effeminate, table-setter variety.

Why not quit pretending otherwise? He was terrific at it, as stated.
And he was clutch; no one could deny that.
But there are hitters, then there are HITTERS.

Trying to equate Jeter with Ripkin as a slugger is silly.
A REAL hitters job is to hit and get on base, something that Jeter was better than Ripken at.

I know hating on Jeter is the cool thing to do, especially if you're a Mets fan, but Jeter actually was a really good baseball player. Calling him a "punch and judy" hitter is false and it shows your ignorance.

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02-15-2014, 11:56 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
A REAL hitters job is to hit and get on base, something that Jeter was better than Ripken at.
According to that BillyBall rationale, all leadoff hitters would be higher paid than cleanup hitters.
They're not, and for good reason. RBI men carry the ultimate value.
Jeter could have 4 100RBI seasons starting this year, and still fall short of Ripkin.

And I dont hate Derek Jeter. Don't even know him, though I did meet him once, and he was perfectly nice.
But I laugh at fans who so blindly follow these guys and fall in love with them, walk around with another guy's name on their back.
Christ, man up.

This retirement announcement was a vain-glorious, selfish thing, plainly goes against the low-key image he always tried to project.
I'm sure money is a factor. He also probably figures there wont be a post-season for the Yanks this year, so he'd better soak up his last chance at some glory.

But if you think his teammates will enjoy it, especially the 20th pre-game ceremony around on some 100-degree day in Texas when they're waiting to play a frickin' game, I think you're mistaken.

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02-16-2014, 12:08 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
According to that BillyBall rationale, all leadoff hitters would be higher paid than cleanup hitters.
They're not, and for good reason. RBI men carry the ultimate value.
Jeter could have 4 100RBI seasons starting this year, and still fall short of Ripkin.

And I dont hate Derek Jeter. Don't even know him, though I did meet him once, and he was perfectly nice.
But I laugh at fans who so blindly follow these guys and fall in love with them, walk around with another guy's name on their back.
Christ, man up.

This retirement announcement was a vain-glorious, selfish thing, plainly goes against the low-key image he always tried to project.
I'm sure money is a factor. He also probably figures there wont be a post-season for the Yanks this year, so he'd better soak up his last chance at some glory.

But if you think his teammates will enjoy it, especially the 20th pre-game ceremony around on some 100-degree day in Texas when they're waiting to play a frickin' game, I think you're mistaken.
Jeter is the better all around hitter, the better offensive player, it's a fact. I didn't come here to argue that he was the better hr hitter.

Let me clue you in, the whole announce your retirement stuff is a recent trend that the MLB concocted to generate more revenue. Jeter's salary is already set in stone. This whole thing is a way for opposing teams to make more money off of his name. Jeter doesn't own the Mets, he doesn't make more money because more people showed up to his last game at Citi. That's the irony, he's actually helping out other franchises from a business standpoint and all you do is piss on it.

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02-16-2014, 12:21 AM
  #686
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Sure, Jeter's the 'better' hitter - despite trailing Ripken in the biggest offensive categories (by a mile).
Senseless to continue, so whatever.

I agree, and think you are correct about the trend, and it all being a money play.

And I think both the owners & players like Jeter are wrong.
He shouldn't agree to it, and I'd bet most fans prefer not to witness it, and certainly don't want to pay more for it.
They have respect for the guy, or more likely a grudging respect, but to most I'd guess he was the enemy, plain & simple.
Because that's what he spent his career being; whether it was in the other league or not.

I hope the Mets give him a plaque commemorating his being 38th on the all-time doubles list LOL.

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02-16-2014, 12:27 AM
  #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
According to that BillyBall rationale, all leadoff hitters would be higher paid than cleanup hitters.
They're not, and for good reason. RBI men carry the ultimate value.
Jeter could have 4 100RBI seasons starting this year, and still fall short of Ripkin.

And I dont hate Derek Jeter. Don't even know him, though I did meet him once, and he was perfectly nice.
But I laugh at fans who so blindly follow these guys and fall in love with them, walk around with another guy's name on their back.
Christ, man up.

This retirement announcement was a vain-glorious, selfish thing, plainly goes against the low-key image he always tried to project.
I'm sure money is a factor. He also probably figures there wont be a post-season for the Yanks this year, so he'd better soak up his last chance at some glory.

But if you think his teammates will enjoy it, especially the 20th pre-game ceremony around on some 100-degree day in Texas when they're waiting to play a frickin' game, I think you're mistaken.
Awesome, I guess the Yankees shouldn't even play this season out since you already somehow know they won't make the playoffs.

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02-16-2014, 12:34 AM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
Sure, Jeter's the 'better' hitter - despite trailing Ripken in the biggest offensive categories (by a mile).
Senseless to continue, so whatever.


I agree, and think you are correct about the trend, and it all being a money play.

And I think both the owners & players like Jeter are wrong.
He shouldn't agree to it, and I'd bet most fans prefer not to witness it, and certainly don't want to pay more for it.
They have respect for the guy, or more likely a grudging respect, but to most I'd guess he was the enemy, plain & simple.
Because that's what he spent his career being; whether it was in the other league or not.

I hope the Mets give him a plaque commemorating his being 38th on the all-time doubles list LOL.
If you want to measure offense, you measure everything, singles, doubles, triples, hrs, and walks. When you measure all of those things, he's better than Ripken with regards to offense, plain and simple.

I question a lot of sabre stuff, I dislike a lot of it, and I especially dislike their pompous attitude. The fact of the matter is that measuring all aspects of offense isn't that groundbreaking or "advanced", it just makes sense.

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02-16-2014, 01:58 AM
  #689
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
I question a lot of sabre stuff, I dislike a lot of it, and I especially dislike their pompous attitude. The fact of the matter is that measuring all aspects of offense isn't that groundbreaking or "advanced", it just makes sense.

Any sort of reputable Sabre guy would see that Jeter is the better offensive player. His OBP is way higher and the two players have equal slugging percentages. A huge part of moneyball is getting on base, moving runners forward, etc. Jeter was way, way better at it. Home runs and XBH's are a big deal, that much is true, but to imply that it's the only thing that matters represents a misunderstanding of the philosophy by Todd Harvey more than anything else.

Cal Ripken was more likely to get an RBI but Jeter was more likely to get on base, advance runners, prolong offensive rallies, steal bases, and score himself. That's just putting things in baseball terms, which plenty of Sabre nerds forget to do. Ripken was a great player and had great numbers everywhere but you'd almost have to be a fool to pick him over Jeter at the plate. 10 HRs a year is not more important than a 40 point difference in on base and batting average.

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02-16-2014, 02:22 AM
  #690
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The thing about Jeter's defense is he still won 5 Gold Gloves.

Ok so the Gold Glove has always been an award, much like the Selke, where your offensive reputation helps you along.

But am I seriously supposed to believe that ALL FIVE of them just happened by accident?

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02-16-2014, 02:24 AM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Callahan Auto View Post
Any sort of reputable Sabre guy would see that Jeter is the better offensive player. His OBP is way higher and the two players have equal slugging percentages. A huge part of moneyball is getting on base, moving runners forward, etc. Jeter was way, way better at it. Home runs and XBH's are a big deal, that much is true, but to imply that it's the only thing that matters represents a misunderstanding of the philosophy by Todd Harvey more than anything else.

Cal Ripken was more likely to get an RBI but Jeter was more likely to get on base, advance runners, prolong offensive rallies, steal bases, and score himself. That's just putting things in baseball terms, which plenty of Sabre nerds forget to do. Ripken was a great player and had great numbers everywhere but you'd almost have to be a fool to pick him over Jeter at the plate. 10 HRs a year is not more important than a 40 point difference in on base and batting average.
My major problem with sabres lies with Beane and Moneyball. It portreys them as geniuses and makes scouts look like morons. Scouting was the single reason why they competed with the big money franchises. They had a bunch of good young players that weren't paid much simply because they were young. You can't even use advanced statistics with college prospects.

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02-16-2014, 02:30 AM
  #692
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And their defense metrics blow and don't make any sense.

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02-16-2014, 05:31 AM
  #693
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Im not an advanced stats guy, but Ripken destroys Jeter in WAR.

Only reason why i mention it is because I watched Ripken carry a miserable team for years. Outside of Eddie Murray in the early 80s, they were terrible until the mid-90s when Angelos broke the bank.

Jeter batted 2nd on a dynasty. Ripken batted 3/4 on a doormat. Ripken and Yount redefined the position.

Ripken won two MVPs out of the few years he played on a good team, but the truth is he could have been an MVP finalist at least a dozen times.

Tough debate, but i take Ripken because of the power.

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02-16-2014, 06:05 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
The thing about Jeter's defense is he still won 5 Gold Gloves.

Ok so the Gold Glove has always been an award, much like the Selke, where your offensive reputation helps you along.

But am I seriously supposed to believe that ALL FIVE of them just happened by accident?

He deserved 09 Gold Glove. He had no business winning in 05, 06 and 10 because he had a negative UZR/150. There were better candidates in 04.

Like 'stan the caddy' said, Jeter is sure-handed and has a quick release. Jeter's problem has always been getting to the ball. Always had a questionable range.

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02-16-2014, 06:11 AM
  #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Harvey View Post
A REAL hitter's job is to drive in runs for his team. That's what big-time, feared hitters are paid to do.

Jeter was far more of the effeminate, table-setter variety.

Why not quit pretending otherwise? He was terrific at it, as stated.
And he was clutch; no one could deny that.
But there are hitters, then there are HITTERS.

Trying to equate Jeter with Ripkin as a slugger is silly.
Excellent job in using RBIs to prove your point.

In 2011 Granderson has 119 RBIs. Jose Bautista had 103. Bautista was by far a superior player. Unfortunately for Bautista he was surrounded by hitters who couldn't hit water if they fell out of the boat.

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02-16-2014, 10:03 AM
  #696
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Originally Posted by Callahan Auto View Post
Ripken was a great player and had great numbers everywhere but you'd almost have to be a fool to pick him over Jeter at the plate. 10 HRs a year is not more important than a 40 point difference in on base and batting average.
I'd bet major league pitchers wouldn't choose Ripken over Jeter if it was a question of who they'd rather face in a big spot;
that might be the most telling point of all; and obviously, I dont think pitchers would enjoy facing either guy. But Ripkin could hurt you bad, in a hurry. He invoked a fear Jeter never did, and his numbers reflect that.

truth is, they were different player types; it's no more fair to compare Ripken's lack of table-setting abilities than it is Jeter's shortcomings in the power department.

But I do agree as I saw pointed out that Ripkin was remarkably alone in the O's lineup for so long yet still up enormous numbers, and so I think his production could have easily been better, maybe even dramatically better. Same time, I think the Yanks did maximize Jeter's abilities, as they should have.

But if it's me starting a team and I can have one guy at 20 years old, I take Ripken every time.

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02-16-2014, 10:37 AM
  #697
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A number of things:

Jeter's off the field stuff: I have to admit, as a single guy, I find it a bit annoying. And I have heard first-hand accounts from women in New York who have been with friends who he picked up (at least the couple I met said it was the friend he picked up ), and it some of it sounds as cheap and tawdry as you'd think. I personally was at the Playboy Club at the Palms in Las Vegas once and saw him at the bar with some other guy and the phenomenon was unreal - the glammed out Vegas beauties literally swarmed him. But you know what? He was never a hypocrite about it. And despite the constant media coverage, it mainly stayed under wraps. He enjoyed the single life to the max, never got married, never cheated and never played up his status as the most eligible bachelor in NY.

The gold gloves: Jeter was an excellent defensive SS for much of his career. Sure-handed, good range (which later slipped significantly) and always made the clutch play. Going back on a flare, into the stands on a pop-up, into the hole for a sizzling grounder - he was fantastic. Not as strong going to his left, but that's quibbling. Him being a "subpar" defensive player is a recent, revisionist creation. He had lost a step, won a gold glove late in his career and suddenly it became popular to apply that filter on all his previous defensive accomplishments. Silliness.

Jeter as a hitter: first of all, yes, he played on a stacked squad. But he was the cornerstone of that squad - he should receive equal, if not greater, credit for the team's offensive success. And "punch and judy" is a disingenuous label to minimize his overall contribution. He was not a cleanup monster, but he was an excellent all-around hitter, who contributed to the offense in every way possible - at the front end of the play scoring them, in the middle of the play keeping the rally alive and at the end of the play driving them in. He had above average speed, above average power (especially for his position), was phenomenal at making contact and, again, was incredibly clutch.

Jeter vs. Ripken. Both hall-of-famers. Ripken had more power; Jeter was significantly better at making contact and getting on base. Ripken played on losers - but, as I said above, why doesn't Jeter get some credit for contributing to his teams not being losers? I would say that in their prime, they were about the same defensively - Jeter had Ripken on range, but Ripken was unbelievably good at positioning himself based on the situation, which was what allowed him to play the position so well despite his limited range. He also had Jeter beat on the arm, but Jeter used his athleticism to compensate there. Rank 'em 2-3 or 3-2, behind Wagner - it's a legitimate debate and I don't think it's clear-cut for either one. Trying to say Ripken is obviously the better player smacks of sour grapes.


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02-16-2014, 12:36 PM
  #698
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Jeter is the better hitter, without question.

I'm too new a baseball fan to be able to talk much about Ripken, but if you're gonna disregard consistent high defensive marks on his FWar because you think defensive metrics are stupid, that's a little short sighted.

Consistent excellent performance by Ripken on defensive metrics means there's probably something there to the argument that he was a significantly better defender at SS than Jeter.

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02-16-2014, 01:34 PM
  #699
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The problem with defensive metrics is that it's impossible (at this point in time) to equate defensive production with offensive production... not that it stops stat people. The stats also assume that every player at a position receives the same payload as far as balls hit at them; that's a ridiculous assumption. I wouldn't doubt that Ripken was a better natural fielder but he was also a guy that didn't move that well as a shortstop and I'm extremely skeptical to accept defensive metric readings for players who played 10+ years ago. Jeter's prime was square in the middle of guys roiding like crazy so I think it's safe to assume that he was forced to field balls that were hit harder. Where things even out is hard to say.

I'd say Jeter was a slightly above average defensive shortstop in his prime and that Ripken was a good to great defender. I don't think the difference is enough to make up for the offense, no matter what WAR (which is quickly becoming the worst stat used by baseball casuals) says.

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02-16-2014, 02:17 PM
  #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callahan Auto View Post
The problem with defensive metrics is that it's impossible (at this point in time) to equate defensive production with offensive production... not that it stops stat people. The stats also assume that every player at a position receives the same payload as far as balls hit at them; that's a ridiculous assumption. I wouldn't doubt that Ripken was a better natural fielder but he was also a guy that didn't move that well as a shortstop and I'm extremely skeptical to accept defensive metric readings for players who played 10+ years ago. Jeter's prime was square in the middle of guys roiding like crazy so I think it's safe to assume that he was forced to field balls that were hit harder. Where things even out is hard to say.

I'd say Jeter was a slightly above average defensive shortstop in his prime and that Ripken was a good to great defender. I don't think the difference is enough to make up for the offense, no matter what WAR (which is quickly becoming the worst stat used by baseball casuals) says.
What's with this sudden repulsion of WAR?

The best players in the game consistently correlate to who has a good WAR. Just because it knocks some numbers off of Jeter for not being a great defender doesn't make it a bad stat.

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