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Old
02-15-2014, 08:17 AM
  #26
Deja Lu
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
Nonis, is that you?

Name me one player below Raymond on the depth chart who is capable of scoring 20 goals/45 points.
Right now or in the future? If now, no one. If in the future, Leivo, Abbott and Brown all have potential.

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02-15-2014, 08:24 AM
  #27
therealkoho
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I think for the 1st time in my life I can now use this expression

"I thought I'd seen it all .........but now there's this"

jeepers creepers op get off the glue

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Old
02-15-2014, 08:44 AM
  #28
Drew311
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Originally Posted by GoodOl22 View Post
Right now or in the future? If now, no one.If in the future, Leivo, Abbott and Brown all have potential.
That's what I mean. We have zero depth right now to replace the kind of offense Raymond can bring on the 2nd/3rd line. If anyone thinks Leivo or D'Amigo will step in after the trade deadline and put a bunch of points up they are delusional.

The Leafs will make the playoffs and may have a decent chance at making a run (depending on their opponents in the first couple of rounds). Getting a 2nd round pick in 2015 is in no way on Nonis' priority list to improve this team before the deadline. Competitive teams want to ice their best team, as playoff experience benefits the team much more than a pick that might produce an NHL player in 5 years.

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Old
02-15-2014, 01:48 PM
  #29
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no thanks you keep Frattin

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Old
02-16-2014, 01:28 AM
  #30
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I understand the reluctance to give up Raymond. Let's keep it simple, I'd trade Frattin for a 3rd/4th.

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Old
02-16-2014, 09:52 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Kadri & Lupul have been inconsistent together.

None of those guys can replace the offence that we need from Raymond. Yes, he's inconsistent like the 2nd line, but the hope (and results so far) have been that Raymond produces when the 2nd line isn't, so the net result ends up being consistency in numbers.

But, even if he was replacable internally, that's something you only begin to consider in the offseason when having contract discussions... not when gearing up for a playoff run.
But if you have better players to take to the playoffs, then you think about trading him. We have a lot of shooters as it is, who are a lot better in other aspects of their game (JVR, Kessel, Kadri and Lupul), and then many secondary scorers who are able to also put it in the net: Bozak, Bolland when he is going to be back playing, Clarkson if he starts to get it together again, even guys like D'Amigo and McClement can be counted for around 10 goals a season despite being defensive forwards. That doesn't even include the huge crop of offensive defensemen we have in Rielly, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Franson, Ranger, Brennan, etc. We need his spot for another defensive forward who can somewhat produce like D'Amigo, because that's where we are lacking, not offense. We are giving up like 35 shots a game, no matter how many Raymond's you have on the team, you aren't going to have success in the playoffs with that.

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Old
02-16-2014, 09:58 AM
  #32
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by SeaOfBlue View Post
But if you have better players to take to the playoffs, then you think about trading him. We have a lot of shooters as it is, who are a lot better in other aspects of their game (JVR, Kessel, Kadri and Lupul), and then many secondary scorers who are able to also put it in the net: Bozak, Bolland when he is going to be back playing, Clarkson if he starts to get it together again, even guys like D'Amigo and McClement can be counted for around 10 goals a season despite being defensive forwards. That doesn't even include the huge crop of offensive defensemen we have in Rielly, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Franson, Ranger, Brennan, etc. We need his spot for another defensive forward who can somewhat produce like D'Amigo, because that's where we are lacking, not offense. We are giving up like 35 shots a game, no matter how many Raymond's you have on the team, you aren't going to have success in the playoffs with that.
We don't have better players -- that's why Raymond plays as much as he does.

Having guys like Raymond and one of Kulemin/Clarkson on the 3rd line could be the difference for us in the playoffs. A top line like ours is prone to getting shut down to a certain degree against teams like Boston. If that second line isn't firing on all cylinders (and then some), we need a couple of players on the 3rd line who can put the puck in the net.

I'm not sure where this myth comes from regarding Jerry d'Amigo. He has 1 NHL goal, and at this point, just a body that can be put in the lineup and not look horendously out of place like Carter Ashton.

A line comprised on Raymond-Bolland-Clarkson/Kulemin should be much more successful than the same one with d'Amigo in Raymond's place, simply because they actually provide a speedy scoring threat. A scrub like Jerry d'Amigo isn't going to solve our defensive woes. A total overhaul of how our team plays (along with high end shutdown defenceman to play on our 2nd pair) might.... but until one of those 2 things happen, we need to be able to outscore our problems.

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Old
02-16-2014, 10:02 AM
  #33
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Raymond is good depth. He struggles in a top 6 role but when the Leafs are fully healthy, he will be on the third line with Bolland and Clarkson, where they can exploit other teams weaker defensive pairings. That is the depth of the Leafs come playoff time. You have JVR and Kessel on the first line, Lupul and Kadri on the second line, and Raymond, Bolland and Clarkson on the third line. Other than the Bruins, most other teams in the East do not have that type of scoring depth.

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Old
02-16-2014, 10:49 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
We don't have better players -- that's why Raymond plays as much as he does.

Having guys like Raymond and one of Kulemin/Clarkson on the 3rd line could be the difference for us in the playoffs. A top line like ours is prone to getting shut down to a certain degree against teams like Boston. If that second line isn't firing on all cylinders (and then some), we need a couple of players on the 3rd line who can put the puck in the net.

I'm not sure where this myth comes from regarding Jerry d'Amigo. He has 1 NHL goal, and at this point, just a body that can be put in the lineup and not look horendously out of place like Carter Ashton.

A line comprised on Raymond-Bolland-Clarkson/Kulemin should be much more successful than the same one with d'Amigo in Raymond's place, simply because they actually provide a speedy scoring threat. A scrub like Jerry d'Amigo isn't going to solve our defensive woes. A total overhaul of how our team plays (along with high end shutdown defenceman to play on our 2nd pair) might.... but until one of those 2 things happen, we need to be able to outscore our problems.
The way I look at it, we survived last year without Raymond and a struggling Kulemin, and that was without Bernier and having Grabovski and MacArthur on the bottom lines instead of Clarkson and Bolland. This team can probably beat that Boston team when we choked. We seriously don't need a guy like Raymond who has absolutely no clue of what to do in the defensive zone. If Kessel, Bozak and JVR get shut down, we have Kadri-Lupul-Clarkson. If they suck, our third line won't do anything in order to win a game. Raymond isn't even a very good sniper in my opinion. He's just getting fed the puck a lot on his line, so he gets shots and chances to get points. Give that to Abbott, except he can pass, play in the dirty areas, has speed and can make a lot out of few shots. The only thing Raymond has on him is his size and is a little bit faster.

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Old
02-16-2014, 10:52 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bluejaysfan View Post
Raymond is good depth. He struggles in a top 6 role but when the Leafs are fully healthy, he will be on the third line with Bolland and Clarkson, where they can exploit other teams weaker defensive pairings. That is the depth of the Leafs come playoff time. You have JVR and Kessel on the first line, Lupul and Kadri on the second line, and Raymond, Bolland and Clarkson on the third line. Other than the Bruins, most other teams in the East do not have that type of scoring depth.
Though the Bruins also have a lot of defensive depth with those players too. We don't. Very few players on the Bruins are like Raymond, because he's one-dimensional, whereas all of their scorers can play defense, or win faceoffs, or hit or something. Raymond can't do any of that. Kulemin isn't like that either. Clarkson is our closest forward to what they have in terms of multi-dimensional play.

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Old
02-16-2014, 12:00 PM
  #36
KingCanadain1976
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Originally Posted by Darlotto99 View Post
no thanks you keep Frattin
its posts like this that make me lol The op is a leaf fan and this person is a leaf fan Yet they are talking like the op is a kings fan. I wish hf leaf fans would talk to each other on there own board before posts like this make it to the main boards.

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Old
02-16-2014, 12:56 PM
  #37
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by SeaOfBlue View Post
The way I look at it, we survived last year without Raymond and a struggling Kulemin, and that was without Bernier and having Grabovski and MacArthur on the bottom lines instead of Clarkson and Bolland. This team can probably beat that Boston team when we choked. We seriously don't need a guy like Raymond who has absolutely no clue of what to do in the defensive zone. If Kessel, Bozak and JVR get shut down, we have Kadri-Lupul-Clarkson. If they suck, our third line won't do anything in order to win a game. Raymond isn't even a very good sniper in my opinion. He's just getting fed the puck a lot on his line, so he gets shots and chances to get points. Give that to Abbott, except he can pass, play in the dirty areas, has speed and can make a lot out of few shots. The only thing Raymond has on him is his size and is a little bit faster.
We didn't survive last year...

Where are you getting the myth that Raymond doesn't know what to do in the defensive zone?

If Spencer Abbott was a competent NHL player of comparable ability to Raymond, he'd be playing with our team and proving as such. Fact is -- he isn't. We've had Carter Ashton in our lineup most nights.

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Old
02-16-2014, 01:18 PM
  #38
SeaOfBlue
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
We didn't survive last year...

Where are you getting the myth that Raymond doesn't know what to do in the defensive zone?

If Spencer Abbott was a competent NHL player of comparable ability to Raymond, he'd be playing with our team and proving as such. Fact is -- he isn't. We've had Carter Ashton in our lineup most nights.
Because Abbott isn't suited to be a 4th line winger like Ashton can be. And the fact that Raymond is a -1 despite having 35 points and is on the PP proves it. I would say look at the games, but that wouldn't provide me very much proof right now since I don't have game highlights that will show him in the defensive end, unless they're scoring a goal against.

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Old
02-16-2014, 01:19 PM
  #39
SeaOfBlue
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
We didn't survive last year...
That was because we choked. We had Boston right where we wanted them and we fell apart. Do you know why? We couldn't play defense well enough.

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