HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Raffi Torres on the block?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-10-2007, 05:32 PM
  #26
Oi'll say!
Go Flames
 
Oi'll say!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oil in 9
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Well, I guess I'm part of the unwashed masses. I'd be very interested to see your proof that Torres is a good passer.

There's plenty of indirect evidence as well as mounds of anecdotal evidence to suggest that he's not a good passer. The indirect evidence includes:
  • His complete and utter ineptitude on the PP. Both in terms of PP points per hour and in terms of PP goals for per hour.
  • His frighteningly high giveaways per hour TOI. I don't like the stat, but when you don't carry the puck (Torres doesn't), you don't have a disproportionate number of long passes (dmen suffer from this) and you still manage to rack these up, there might be something up. Heck, last year he had a higher rate than Hemsky all the while not handling the puck nearly as often.

I like Torres and I think he's developing as a player, but I really think you're barking up the wrong tree defending his passing skills. They just aren't there and I'm not so sure that's a necessity anyway because he's still a pretty damn effective ES player without them.
ACtually he had a lower turnover rate than Ales Hemsky judging by the stats on the nhl site. Hemsky had 1.5 times the number of turnovers and only 1.25 times the amount of icetime.

This year the gap is even more in favor of Torres, who has nearly the same icetime and only about 60% as many turnovers. And the type of turnovers is the actual worst part. Noone makes the brutal giveaways that Ales does (except maybe the local whipping boy whose name I won't drag into this) that set up easy counterattacks or just leave the zone on the pp.

Next time you watch a game, look for one or two hard, quick passes from Raffi that go for one timers from right between the hashmarks and look for one or two that spring a player in the neutral zone, or an effective dump-in or retrieval. He may make a turnover or two but he gives his linemates a lot of chances that you don't see very often at even strength. He just isn't typically on a line with any of the Oilers' offensive juggernauts.

Oi'll say! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 05:56 PM
  #27
RiversQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
ACtually he had a lower turnover rate than Ales Hemsky judging by the stats on the nhl site. Hemsky had 1.5 times the number of turnovers and only 1.25 times the amount of icetime.
Yeah Torres averaged about 0.8 fewer giveaways per 60min than Hemsky last year. Of course he doesn't carry the puck, which is why this is a bad stat. The point of the matter is that Torres still averaged between 1 and 2 giveaways per hour more than any Oiler not named Hemsky or Ulanov last year. He turns the puck over a tremendous amount for a player that doesn't have the puck on his stick very much and doesn't make long passes.

Note: The two main problems with the GV stat is that it doesn't account for the amount of time a player carries the puck or number of times he attempts passes, nor does it account for the degree of difficulty or length of the passes. It's fatally flawed in this respect, but if you're a player like Raffi, who does not handle the puck and does not attempt difficult passes, you're largely exempt from those excuses.

Quote:
This year the gap is even more in favor of Torres, who has nearly the same icetime and only about 60% as many turnovers. And the type of turnovers is the actual worst part. Noone makes the brutal giveaways that Ales does (except maybe the local whipping boy whose name I won't drag into this) that set up easy counterattacks or just leave the zone on the pp.
No, Torres' giveaways are equally as bad if not worse. He tends to blindly throw the puck up to the points and places the dmen in precarious positions. Especially when he's along the boards with time and space. In fact, the more time he has, the worse his passes seem to get. (BTW, Hemsky actually has a better 5V5 goals against per hour rate than Raffi does right now.)

Quote:
Next time you watch a game, look for one or two hard, quick passes from Raffi that go for one timers from right between the hashmarks and look for one or two that spring a player in the neutral zone, or an effective dump-in or retrieval. He may make a turnover or two but he gives his linemates a lot of chances that you don't see very often at even strength. He just isn't typically on a line with any of the Oilers' offensive juggernauts.
Next time you watch an Oilers' PP look what happens when Torres gets the puck near the half boards or in the corner with time and space - it's never effective let alone pretty.

BTW, you also ducked the PP question. Why has Torres been so bad on the PP historically? He's got 500+ minutes of PP time in his NHL career and he's never had remotely decent numbers. I think it's because he's not able to handle the puck effectively enough to be a contributor there.

He's not a passer, but he doesn't have to be one IMO.

RiversQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 07:04 PM
  #28
Oi'll say!
Go Flames
 
Oi'll say!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oil in 9
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Yeah Torres averaged about 0.8 fewer giveaways per 60min than Hemsky last year. Of course he doesn't carry the puck, which is why this is a bad stat. The point of the matter is that Torres still averaged between 1 and 2 giveaways per hour more than any Oiler not named Hemsky or Ulanov last year. He turns the puck over a tremendous amount for a player that doesn't have the puck on his stick very much and doesn't make long passes.

Note: The two main problems with the GV stat is that it doesn't account for the amount of time a player carries the puck or number of times he attempts passes, nor does it account for the degree of difficulty or length of the passes. It's fatally flawed in this respect, but if you're a player like Raffi, who does not handle the puck and does not attempt difficult passes, you're largely exempt from those excuses.


No, Torres' giveaways are equally as bad if not worse. He tends to blindly throw the puck up to the points and places the dmen in precarious positions. Especially when he's along the boards with time and space. In fact, the more time he has, the worse his passes seem to get. (BTW, Hemsky actually has a better 5V5 goals against per hour rate than Raffi does right now.)



Next time you watch an Oilers' PP look what happens when Torres gets the puck near the half boards or in the corner with time and space - it's never effective let alone pretty.

BTW, you also ducked the PP question. Why has Torres been so bad on the PP historically? He's got 500+ minutes of PP time in his NHL career and he's never had remotely decent numbers. I think it's because he's not able to handle the puck effectively enough to be a contributor there.

He's not a passer, but he doesn't have to be one IMO.
I'm not going to argue whose passes are worse, we clearly don't see eye to eye on that topic and that's that. If you're saying that Al doesn't make more than his share of blatant, horrible giveaways then you've just got your head in the sand.

Historically Torres isn't so much "worse" than Ales on the pp aside from the Pronger season and this season he hasn't played there enough to comment on. He's also a lw'er not named Smytty so for as long as he's an Oiler he's 2nd line pp or worse which is always going to be a harsh detriment to anyone's success rate there.

He actually scores goals at a far higher rate than Al does on the pp (the second incidence of your very few stats from the first post being 100% wrong).

Oi'll say! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 07:32 PM
  #29
speeds
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: St.Albert
Posts: 6,823
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
I'm not going to argue whose passes are worse, we clearly don't see eye to eye on that topic and that's that. If you're saying that Al doesn't make more than his share of blatant, horrible giveaways then you've just got your head in the sand.

Historically Torres isn't so much "worse" than Ales on the pp aside from the Pronger season and this season he hasn't played there enough to comment on. He's also a lw'er not named Smytty so for as long as he's an Oiler he's 2nd line pp or worse which is always going to be a harsh detriment to anyone's success rate there.

He actually scores goals at a far higher rate than Al does on the pp (the second incidence of your very few stats from the first post being 100% wrong).
Not this year, as Torres has 0 goals on the PP this year in 89:10 of PP time. His PP production this year is indeed so pitiful that he has ZERO points on the entire season!

speeds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 09:20 PM
  #30
RiversQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
I'm not going to argue whose passes are worse, we clearly don't see eye to eye on that topic and that's that. If you're saying that Al doesn't make more than his share of blatant, horrible giveaways then you've just got your head in the sand.
Well, ditto I guess.

Quote:
Historically Torres isn't so much "worse" than Ales on the pp aside from the Pronger season and this season he hasn't played there enough to comment on. He's also a lw'er not named Smytty so for as long as he's an Oiler he's 2nd line pp or worse which is always going to be a harsh detriment to anyone's success rate there.
Nah, the gap in past performance for the two players is monumental. Just to add, the position means absolutely jack. Even if the Oilers had three LWers out there on the PP, they'd still throw Torres over the boards if he was worth spit out there. Forward lines and positions only matter at even strength.

Here's some data for you...

PP Points per hour of PP TOI (PPP/hr):
Code:
	2003/2004	2005/2006	2006/2007
Torres	         2.8	         2.9	0.0
Hemsky	         3.4	         6.2	5.7
As you can see, Hemsky has an expected significant production advantage over Torres on the power play.

PP Goals For per hour of PP TOI (PPGF/hr):
Code:
	2003/2004	2005/2006	2006/2007
Torres	            -	         4.3	1.4
Hemsky	            -	         8.5	8.3
Again, the Oilers score far more often when Hemsky is out there than when Torres is on the PP. Last year, Hemsky led all Oilers in this stat and he continues to lead all Oilers this year. Just to give you an idea - the leaguewide PPGF/hr average last year was 6.5 PPGF/hr. Torres comes in far below average and Hemsky is well above average in this regard.

Quote:
He actually scores goals at a far higher rate than Al does on the pp (the second incidence of your very few stats from the first post being 100% wrong).
100% wrong? The Oilers score far more frequently when Hemsky is on the PP unit than when Torres is out there. That is what truly matters with respect to PP performance. Head in the sand? It's funny that you said that because you're clearly suffering from that condition if you can't realize that Hemsky makes this PP tick. Even Pronger knew that.

RiversQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:04 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.