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Sharks Talk II (Trades, Roster Talk, Etc.)

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Old
02-18-2014, 08:24 AM
  #101
hohosaregood
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I don't care for Mueller at all.
I'm acutely aware of your preference in defensemen.

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02-18-2014, 08:39 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Devils Army View Post
As a hockey fan rather than a Devils fan Andy Greene would be the guy your looking for, he might just be to expensive, what about Pavelski cause you guys said you don't want to ruin your long term so no to Hertl then what about dealing Pavelski?
Andy Green is a better version of what we need, but I would rather take our chances with Stuart/Irwin/Hannan as our last two d-men then deal one of our forwards for Green. I'd consider Nieto or Wingels, but assume that'd be a non-starter for the Devils.

I think Pavelski and Hertl are worth way more than Greene.

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02-18-2014, 10:20 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
While it makes sense, it kinda sucks that everybody seems so low on Mueller around here though.
Most haven't watched him play or wanted the Sharks to draft someone else. If he gets traded and blossoms somewhere else, it will be DW's fault.

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Old
02-18-2014, 10:47 AM
  #104
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Most haven't watched him play or wanted the Sharks to draft someone else. If he gets traded and blossoms somewhere else, it will be DW's fault.
I think I'm more annoyed that he isn't projected to start for a while. Won't he be with Everett for another year or so?

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02-18-2014, 11:03 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ScottyDont View Post
I think I'm more annoyed that he isn't projected to start for a while. Won't he be with Everett for another year or so?
I guess we'd like to have a prospect who is able to jump in really soon and we're lucky that Hertl did just that and it's amazing so many prospects from 2012 have been able to jump in immediately but there is little chance anybody in that group of defensemen drafted immediately after Mueller is gonna make the jump next year. Jux might say Theodore, I don't know prospects all that well though.

I don't really know what to say about the drafting strategy but I feel like we're actually the strongest in terms of forward depth because I think that our highest quality prospects are forwards right now. Even if we have a lot of defensemen, we just don't have any sure bets and I think Mueller would qualify as almost a sure thing. Even if he doesn't become a gamebreaker, I think it'd be a definite positive if he becomes a Vlasic or Braun level player though. That would be at least a steady presence on all three pairings, regardless of who their partner would be.

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02-18-2014, 11:17 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I don't know what to tell you. Look at cap geeks projected space. There is NONE. We will be over when Torres and Couture come back without moves. YOU DO NOT BANK CAP SPACE while using LTIR created space. The 3M is while they are on LTIR that can be used NOW on other players. Not in the future.
Yes, the projected cap space is 0. And yes, you don't bank cap space when players are on IR. But there is more LTIR being used per CapGeek than is left on Couture and Torres' remaining cap hits for the year. So there some sort of impact that has to carry forward if the CapGeek numbers are correct. So in Capgeek is correct as far as remaining cap space, then the Sharks have some sort of cap space available if you take remaining LTIR into account.


Last edited by Vaasa: 02-18-2014 at 11:31 AM.
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Old
02-18-2014, 12:09 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Yes, the projected cap space is 0. And yes, you don't bank cap space when players are on IR. But there is more LTIR being used per CapGeek than is left on Couture and Torres' remaining cap hits for the year. So there some sort of impact that has to carry forward if the CapGeek numbers are correct. So in Capgeek is correct as far as remaining cap space, then the Sharks have some sort of cap space available if you take remaining LTIR into account.
Yes, they will have Hertl's CAP space, but we will still be over the CAP+LTIR when Couture and Torres come back without making any moves. I don't think we've gone without using any LTIR this year, but if we have it would be very very little.

Guess will find out fairly soon.

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02-18-2014, 01:47 PM
  #108
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Yes, they will have Hertl's CAP space, but we will still be over the CAP+LTIR when Couture and Torres come back without making any moves. I don't think we've gone without using any LTIR this year, but if we have it would be very very little.

Guess will find out fairly soon.
Anybody know exactly how much we'd be over (once Couture and Torres are off LTIR)? (Sorry if it's been posted. Haven't kept up with this thread lately.)

Could we send Kennedy (and/or Burish or Brown) down to Worcester and recall them before the playoffs? With this new CBA, I know a portion of a one-way player's cap hit remains "on the books" - I think a 1/3rd.

Kennedy with his $2.25 cap hit seems like the best choice to me, then Burish, then Brown

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02-18-2014, 01:48 PM
  #109
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Best option not predicated on getting someone to waive their NMC is to trade Kennedy (Also assuming Burish has no value and can't be traded). Would allow us to keep Nieto up as well.

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Old
02-18-2014, 01:49 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Anybody know exactly how much we'd be over (once Couture and Torres are off LTIR)? (Sorry if it's been posted. Haven't kept up with this thread lately.)

Could we send Kennedy (and/or Burish or Brown) down to Worcester and recall them before the playoffs? With this new CBA, I know a portion of a one-way player's cap hit remains "on the books" - I think a 1/3rd.

Kennedy with his $2.25 cap hit seems like the best choice to me, then Burish, then Brown
According to Capgeek we will be over by $977,500 without any moves.

We would be $-52,500 under if Kennedy were demoted.


CAP SPACE (23-man roster): -$977,500

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster

FORWARDS
Matt Nieto ($0.759m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
Tyler Kennedy ($2.350m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
James Sheppard ($0.830m) /
Andrew Desjardins ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Scott Hannan ($1.000m)
Matt Irwin ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.625m)
LTIR
Tomas Hertl ($0.925m)

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-02-17)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $590,833
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): -$977,500

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Old
02-18-2014, 01:49 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
Best option not predicated on getting someone to waive their NMC is to trade Kennedy. Would allow us to keep Nieto up as well.
Agree. Two issues I see... Would DW give up on a player he signed a year ago? Is there a market for Kennedy?

Our first choice - to free up space - should be to trade any of Havlat, Kennedy or Burish. (I want to keep Stuart because we need dmen for the playoffs.) I just don't think there's much of a market for any of those forwards.

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02-18-2014, 01:53 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Would DW give up on a player he signed a year ago?
Galiardi had a pretty quick turnaround.

Quote:
Is there a market for Kennedy?
Yeah, he's not bad, he just doesn't fit in our system and we have enough top-9 players with the emergence of Nieto, Hertl and Wingels.

I'm hoping that Wilson only picked up Kennedy because of the uncertainty with Hertl and Nieto.

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02-18-2014, 01:56 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
Best option not predicated on getting someone to waive their NMC is to trade Kennedy (Also assuming Burish has no value and can't be traded). Would allow us to keep Nieto up as well.
I've been suggesting this as an option too. Nieto seems to fill the the role Kennedy was brought in to play better than he does, same type of position they tried TJ in last year. Would be interesting to see if they trade Kennedy for a better fit, but it would take DW admitting a mistake.

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Old
02-18-2014, 01:58 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
I've been suggesting this as an option too. Nieto seems to fill the the role Kennedy was brought in to play better than he does, same type of position they tried TJ in last year. Would be interesting to see if they trade Kennedy for a better fit, but it would take DW admitting a mistake.

How so? Covering your bases is not a mistake. Nieto performing well enough to take his spot is not a mistake. I don't see it.

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Old
02-18-2014, 02:01 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Devils Army View Post
As a hockey fan rather than a Devils fan Andy Greene would be the guy your looking for, he might just be to expensive, what about Pavelski cause you guys said you don't want to ruin your long term so no to Hertl then what about dealing Pavelski?
With all due respect, we're not trading anything close to Hertl or Pavelski for Andy Greene.

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Old
02-18-2014, 02:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
How so? Covering your bases is not a mistake. Nieto performing well enough to take his spot is not a mistake. I don't see it.
Agreed with this. Aside from Havlat being injured (which everyone at least kind of expected), the depth of our forwards has been far better than anticipated.

Wingels is a solid tweener, Nieto and Hertl came in and proved to be top 9 forwards. Pretty amazing the transformation that occurred, for this reason, I too am okay with trading Kennedy.

Definitely the type of player Edmonton needs, but Winnipeg and Calgary would also be interested, as they're bottom 6 needs some help, and they have cap space.

I honestly don't think burish would a bad pick up for Edmonton either.

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Old
02-18-2014, 02:06 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
According to Capgeek we will be over by $977,500 without any moves.

We would be $-52,500 under if Kennedy were demoted.


CAP SPACE (23-man roster): -$977,500

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster

FORWARDS
Matt Nieto ($0.759m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
Tyler Kennedy ($2.350m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
James Sheppard ($0.830m) /
Andrew Desjardins ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Scott Hannan ($1.000m)
Matt Irwin ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.625m)
LTIR
Tomas Hertl ($0.925m)

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-02-17)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $590,833
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): -$977,500
That's assuming full cap hit for the year though, and does not include the reduced cap tracking that having some of those guys on LTIR had. Yes, they don't bank cap space, but they bank some LTIR space if I remember correctly (due to adjustments in average team cap hit). So I don't think that using the CapGeek roster as you have above is an accurate indication of what the actual cap situation is.

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02-18-2014, 02:14 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
Would be interesting to see if they trade Kennedy for a better fit, but it would take DW admitting a mistake.
It wasn't a mistake. He probably had no idea that Hertl would revolutionize that line the way he did.

Galiardi to Kennedy was an evolution. Galiardi was a mid-to-low volume shooting lefty. The line did well possession wise, but had trouble scoring. Wilson probably hoped that having such a high volume shooting righty in Kennedy would with that.

Hertl comes in and revolutionizes the line by adding the garbage goals. Pavelski (when playing with Thornton) is also a garbage goal scorer, which is why that line was so productive with both Hertl and Pavelski, and not terribly productive with the host of other forwards.

My dream would be to find a way to get Vanek on that line, because that would probably be the most dangerous line in the NHL.

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02-18-2014, 02:16 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Anybody know exactly how much we'd be over (once Couture and Torres are off LTIR)? (Sorry if it's been posted. Haven't kept up with this thread lately.)

Could we send Kennedy (and/or Burish or Brown) down to Worcester and recall them before the playoffs? With this new CBA, I know a portion of a one-way player's cap hit remains "on the books" - I think a 1/3rd.

Kennedy with his $2.25 cap hit seems like the best choice to me, then Burish, then Brown
We'd be over by 1.5 million before any moves made with just the activation of the two. At that point, we'd have 15 forwards, 7 d-men, and two goalies. They would likely waive and assign Bracken Kearns and probably send Matt Nieto down but even with that, they're still over by about 200k. To answer your question, it is possible to waive the higher-priced depth forwards and bring them up later. The rules for it are that you basically only save 925k this year, I think. Whether a guy like Kennedy would make it through waivers is another topic. Burish probably would and that would likely be the best option but chances are they will trade or waive James Sheppard. I don't think he'd make it through waivers though. Someone with a need for depth and is following the possession metrics will take a chance on him.

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02-18-2014, 02:19 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
It wasn't a mistake. He probably had no idea that Hertl would revolutionize that line the way he did.

Galiardi to Kennedy was an evolution. Galiardi was a mid-to-low volume shooting lefty. The line did well possession wise, but had trouble scoring. Wilson probably hoped that having such a high volume shooting righty in Kennedy would with that.

Hertl comes in and revolutionizes the line by adding the garbage goals. Pavelski (when playing with Thornton) is also a garbage goal scorer, which is why that line was so productive with both Hertl and Pavelski, and not terribly productive with the host of other forwards.

My dream would be to find a way to get Vanek on that line, because that would probably be the most dangerous line in the NHL.
I was fine with the Kennedy move back when it was made, I understand the justification. Mistake is the wrong word, I've just been disappointed with his play.

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02-18-2014, 02:20 PM
  #121
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How so? Covering your bases is not a mistake. Nieto performing well enough to take his spot is not a mistake. I don't see it.
I got bored so I read through a bit of this thread and you are dead on here.

Kennedy was brought in to shore up forward depth and while he had a stretch of below average games he's still a legit top 9 forward. While Nieto has been good in stretches as well he hasn't proven anything and he doesn't make Kennedy dispensable.

I'm pretty sure that DW / McLellan envisioned a Torres-Pavelski-Kennedy line when he was traded for and I wouldn't be surprised to see that trio tried together at some point once the season gets back under way.

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02-18-2014, 02:31 PM
  #122
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I got bored so I read through a bit of this thread and you are dead on here.

Kennedy was brought in to shore up forward depth and while he had a stretch of below average games he's still a legit top 9 forward. While Nieto has been good in stretches as well he hasn't proven anything and he doesn't make Kennedy dispensable.

I'm pretty sure that DW / McLellan envisioned a Torres-Pavelski-Kennedy line when he was traded for and I wouldn't be surprised to see that trio tried together at some point once the season gets back under way.
I wish they would waive Burish, but I think it will be Sheppard or Kennedy.

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02-18-2014, 02:33 PM
  #123
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Shepard seems likely based on the two scenarios:

1. Coaches recognize his growth, and realize he deserves playing time elsewhere. On a healthy roster, he does not really belong. So, they waive him so he can get a chance elsewhere.

2. The rumored laziness issues with Shep are on-the-money. Coaching staff is getting tired of it; this is why they don't play him. So he will be the first guy they choose to jettison.

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02-18-2014, 03:19 PM
  #124
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Shepard seems likely based on the two scenarios:

1. Coaches recognize his growth, and realize he deserves playing time elsewhere. On a healthy roster, he does not really belong. So, they waive him so he can get a chance elsewhere.

2. The rumored laziness issues with Shep are on-the-money. Coaching staff is getting tired of it; this is why they don't play him. So he will be the first guy they choose to jettison.
The only potential issue with Sheppard is i am not sure his salary is high enough to address the issue.

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02-18-2014, 03:40 PM
  #125
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If they waive Sheppard to keep Brown, Burish, Stuart, I'll be pretty pissed.

I get that he probably has motivation issues (which is why I think we see such a wild swing between his quality of play from game to game), but he's a good player who is ideal for our 4th line.

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