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Old
02-12-2007, 02:08 PM
  #26
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The rats are abandonning the ship as it begins to sink.....

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02-12-2007, 02:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by moshedw View Post
Consistently is the key for a first line center, it happens every year that koivu goes into these massive slumps of 20+ games, and it effects the entire teams as a whole.
Playing Consistently is the key, I will give you that. But until Mtl can give Koivu the 1st line players to play with, you will never see the true talents he really has. The type of top line C that you are talking about there are about 13 teams that have one.


Here's an example:
ATL:Kozlov/Rucchin/Holik (No first line C there)
BOS:Bergeron/Savard:Both good C, but what are they doing for Boston?
BUF:Briere/Drury:I'll give you these two
CAL:Langkow/Lombardi Who's the #1 C here?
CAR:Staal/Brind'Amour: I'll give you this one too
CHI:Smolinski : Nope no 1st line center here
COL:Sakic : I'll give you this one too
CLB:Fedorov/Brule: Fedorov used to be a 1st, but not anymore, Brule, not yet
DAL:Modano/Lindros: Former 1st line C, but not anymore
DETatsyuk/Zhetterberg: I'll give you this one too
EDM:Horcoff/Stoll:Close, but no #1 C here
FLA:Jokinen: I'd rather have Koivu, but I'll give you this one
LAK:Cammalleri/Armstrong:No 1st line C here
MINemitra/White:Maybe Demitra, but he's just as injury prone as Koivu
NSH:Arnott/Legwand:Arnott maybe, but I'm not sure about him
NJD:Gomez: I'll give you Gomez
NYI:Yashin: Hahaha...no comment
NYR:Nylander/Cullen:None here
OTT:Spezza: I'll give you this one
PHI:Forsberg:If healthy, I'll give you this one.
PHO:Reinprecht/Perrault:No
PIT:Crosby/Malkin: Yes and Yes
STL:Weight/Cajanek: Too old and NO
SJS:Thornton: Yes
TBL:Lacavalier/Richards:Yes and Yes
TOR:Sundin/Wellwood: I can't stand the leafs, so I'm not making a comment.
VAN:Sedin/Morrison:Sedin maybe, but only if he could bring his bro.
WAS:Zubrus: Not a 1st line C

Looking at the other 17 teams, looks like Koivu would have a good chance of being the #1 center on most of them.

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02-12-2007, 02:13 PM
  #28
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Well all I know is that there was a feud between Ribs and Saku....and I'm just saying that we thought we got rid of the problem by getting rid of Theo and Ribs, but maybe Saku was just as much a part of that problem. Who really knows!!!!

I'm a big boy and I can take a little flaming when I make a post, but you didn't have to be ignorant with your reply...

"I think you fell down and bumped your head, causing you a severe case of Amnesia. Now do yourself (and all of us) a favor and go lie down and rest your weary head. We'll wake you once we make the playoffs"

A simple agree or disagree followed by your reason would have been suffice, but you insisted on making me seem like I don't have a clue.....well sorry....but I do have a clue and I can see as plain as day that there are issues that need to be addressed in regards with the Montreal Canadiens and I am simply weighing all the possible options and possibilities!!!!!
You know ? They had a pratice dustup and we went to town with our theories. If there was a feud, I'd like to see something more concrete than, well I heard stuff. Rumours about stuff in the room, doesn't make it so.

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02-12-2007, 02:22 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Thank you....I agree that maybe IT IS time to get rid of Koivu. Nothing against the little guy, he has been nothing but a great players for the Habs for the most part and he has shown that he has a big heart, I just think there there are better ways to spend $4 million dollars a season. We could have a guy like a Savard, Briere or Spezza for $5 million and they are all huge contributers to their respective teams.
I think its time for a change in scenery!
Wow...I actually agree with you that Savard, Briere and Spezza are good players. But look at who they play with?

Put Savard/Briere/Spezza with Higgins and Ryder and see how many pts they get?

Now put Koivu with the players that each of those guys play with and then come talk to me.

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02-12-2007, 02:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
Playing Consistently is the key, I will give you that. But until Mtl can give Koivu the 1st line players to play with, you will never see the true talents he really has. The type of top line C that you are talking about there are about 13 teams that have one.


Here's an example:
ATL:Kozlov/Rucchin/Holik (No first line C there)
BOS:Bergeron/Savard:Both good C, but what are they doing for Boston?
BUF:Briere/Drury:I'll give you these two
CAL:Langkow/Lombardi Who's the #1 C here?
CAR:Staal/Brind'Amour: I'll give you this one too
CHI:Smolinski : Nope no 1st line center here
COL:Sakic : I'll give you this one too
CLB:Fedorov/Brule: Fedorov used to be a 1st, but not anymore, Brule, not yet
DAL:Modano/Lindros: Former 1st line C, but not anymore
DETatsyuk/Zhetterberg: I'll give you this one too
EDM:Horcoff/Stoll:Close, but no #1 C here
FLA:Jokinen: I'd rather have Koivu, but I'll give you this one
LAK:Cammalleri/Armstrong:No 1st line C here
MINemitra/White:Maybe Demitra, but he's just as injury prone as Koivu
NSH:Arnott/Legwand:Arnott maybe, but I'm not sure about him
NJD:Gomez: I'll give you Gomez
NYI:Yashin: Hahaha...no comment
NYR:Nylander/Cullen:None here
OTT:Spezza: I'll give you this one
PHI:Forsberg:If healthy, I'll give you this one.
PHO:Reinprecht/Perrault:No
PIT:Crosby/Malkin: Yes and Yes
STL:Weight/Cajanek: Too old and NO
SJS:Thornton: Yes
TBL:Lacavalier/Richards:Yes and Yes
TOR:Sundin/Wellwood: I can't stand the leafs, so I'm not making a comment.
VAN:Sedin/Morrison:Sedin maybe, but only if he could bring his bro.
WAS:Zubrus: Not a 1st line C

Looking at the other 17 teams, looks like Koivu would have a good chance of being the #1 center on most of them.

Good post. This makes good sense...if Koivu was traded to any of those 17 teams, he would end up being their 1st line center. This is the type of feedback I was looking for.
BUT....If thats the case, then how come we aren't playing Kovalev and Samsonov with Koivu? I heard in another post that Koivu doesn't like playing with Kovalev. Well.....is it really up to Koivu to decide who he plays with? Shouldn't the team captain play on whatever line the coach wants him to play on no matter who he's playing with??
I just get the impression that Koivu is a little bit selfish. I think if we used a top line with Samsonov, Koivu and Kovalev and Koivu played the way Kovalev and Samsonov needed him to in order to create scoring chances, and we used Pleks with Higgins and Ryder as the second line, that we would be a more offensive team.
Maybe a lot of the blame has to rest on Carbo's shoulders for not playing his best players on the same line.....who knows.

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Old
02-12-2007, 02:27 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Well just because I said he was a GREAT 2nd line center doesn't mean we have to keep him. I was just agreeing that Koivu isn't a GREAT 1st line center and that he would be better as a 2nd line center. Plus I didn't think that keeping Koivu and trading someone else would get us the 1st line center that we need. Use your head a little bit....do you think Pleks is gonna fetch us a first line centermen???? NOPE!!!

Oh....and I don't need to sit down and figure out what I want to post, because I posted what I wanted to post!!

Oh yeah.....if Saku done such a great job ALL BY HIMSELF on the 1st line for the first half of the season, then how come he disappeared....shouldn't a good 1st line centermen AND the team captain be around to lead his team into the playoffs??? I think he should be.......hence.....the whole reason I started this thread in the first place.

Give your head a good snap on the corner of your desk before you start ranting and raving!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still think you should go take a nap, but I'll be nice for once

Give Koivu some proper wingers to play with before you make a decision on him. The wingers he's been playing with this year ARE NOT first line wingers. Koivu is a playmaker, if his winger's are not scoring, it's not entirely his fault. Unless you expect Koivu to have his wingers stand in the crease and he can deflect pucks off their ass into the net.

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02-12-2007, 02:28 PM
  #32
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who cares if koivu will break 17 other teams top lines, none of those teams are going anywhere.
why not look at the last 10 cup winning teams and they all had elite first line centers playing their role.
the habs will not win a cup with a koivu-plekanec combination up front.
they will have a great chance of a Real C- Koivu combination.

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02-12-2007, 02:29 PM
  #33
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So "consistently" is your point? Then I'm sure you'd rather have Thornton right? Let's have a look at Koivu vs Thornton come playoff time and see which one we'd prefer.
He doesn't really have a point, if you read his posts, he's all over the place. First Koivu's a problem, then he's a great 2nd line C. haha...makes me laugh

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02-12-2007, 02:29 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Good post. This makes good sense...if Koivu was traded to any of those 17 teams, he would end up being their 1st line center. This is the type of feedback I was looking for.
BUT....If thats the case, then how come we aren't playing Kovalev and Samsonov with Koivu? I heard in another post that Koivu doesn't like playing with Kovalev. Well.....is it really up to Koivu to decide who he plays with? Shouldn't the team captain play on whatever line the coach wants him to play on no matter who he's playing with??I just get the impression that Koivu is a little bit selfish. I think if we used a top line with Samsonov, Koivu and Kovalev and Koivu played the way Kovalev and Samsonov needed him to in order to create scoring chances, and we used Pleks with Higgins and Ryder as the second line, that we would be a more offensive team.
Maybe a lot of the blame has to rest on Carbo's shoulders for not playing his best players on the same line.....who knows.
Evaluate information a bit. Koivu's selfish because another poster said he doesn't like to play with Kovalev ?

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02-12-2007, 02:29 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moshedw View Post
who cares if koivu will break 17 other teams top lines, none of those teams are going anywhere.
why not look at the last 10 cup winning teams and they all had elite first line centers playing their role.
the habs will not win a cup with a koivu-plekanec combination up front.
they will have a great chance of a Real C- Koivu combination.
So Saku is a fake C?

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02-12-2007, 02:31 PM
  #36
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So Saku is a fake C?
Hes a real good 2nd line C, but not a real first line C

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02-12-2007, 02:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Good post. This makes good sense...if Koivu was traded to any of those 17 teams, he would end up being their 1st line center. This is the type of feedback I was looking for.
BUT....If thats the case, then how come we aren't playing Kovalev and Samsonov with Koivu? I heard in another post that Koivu doesn't like playing with Kovalev. Well.....is it really up to Koivu to decide who he plays with? Shouldn't the team captain play on whatever line the coach wants him to play on no matter who he's playing with??
I just get the impression that Koivu is a little bit selfish. I think if we used a top line with Samsonov, Koivu and Kovalev and Koivu played the way Kovalev and Samsonov needed him to in order to create scoring chances, and we used Pleks with Higgins and Ryder as the second line, that we would be a more offensive team.
Maybe a lot of the blame has to rest on Carbo's shoulders for not playing his best players on the same line.....who knows.

Finally we agree Well..except for Koivu being selfish.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes Puckhead58,

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02-12-2007, 02:33 PM
  #38
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Wow...I actually agree with you that Savard, Briere and Spezza are good players. But look at who they play with?

Put Savard/Briere/Spezza with Higgins and Ryder and see how many pts they get?

Now put Koivu with the players that each of those guys play with and then come talk to me.
True....Spezza has Heatley and Alfie, that makes perfect sense why Spezza can put up great point totals and Briere has Afinogenov and I'm not sure who else is on that line, and Savard has Murray and Sturm.
But are Higgins and Ryder really that much worse than Murray, Sturm and say Afinogenov and Vanek or whoever or are their centermen just doing more for them than Koivu is doing for his wingers???

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02-12-2007, 02:36 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Doctor House View Post
We have to make the playoffs first.

Does anybody think they are getting close to their money's worth from Koivu?

What we need is a Shanahan, Sakic, Brind'amour type
Shanahan? Last time I checked Shanny wasn't a center. He's less than a point-per-game playing on a line with Jagr. I like Shanny a lot but I don't see why you have his name in a discussion about centers....oh and he's making more than Koivu ...oops that huh?

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02-12-2007, 02:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
True....Spezza has Heatley and Alfie, that makes perfect sense why Spezza can put up great point totals and Briere has Afinogenov and I'm not sure who else is on that line, and Savard has Murray and Sturm.
But are Higgins and Ryder really that much worse than Murray, Sturm and say Afinogenov and Vanek or whoever or are their centermen just doing more for them than Koivu is doing for his wingers???
I don't know if it's just Savard is doing more for Murray/Sturm or if it's just they have a better chemistry together.

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02-12-2007, 02:38 PM
  #41
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Koivu was invisible during the last playoffs ( in the 2-3 games he played ). The team went down because Carolina put Ward in the net . The Canes were dominated by the Habs , but ward stopped everything .

For sure The Habs were better with Saku in the team , but to say that we went down because he was not there is a myth . I don't know why , but everytime the things are going well , or that one of his linemate is scoring a lot , it's always because of Saku , but when the things are going down , it's never his fault .

The Saku's fans have to open their eyes . Saku would be a very good player if the NHL would play 30 - 40 games per season , but it isn't the reality of the NHL .
, at least someone sees the light and calls it as it is, folks after 11 years when do we say , we can`t win with or with out him.

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02-12-2007, 02:40 PM
  #42
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Finally we agree Well..except for Koivu being selfish.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes Puckhead58,

HAHAHA....Well I'm not on here to make enemies....I just want to know what the heck is wrong with our Habs and how can we fix it, no matter who we may have to ship out. You have made some interesting points and I commend you on them!!

And in no way am I trying to say trade Koivu!!!!!! I do like the little bugger, but sometimes I just think that we are making him out to be a better player then he is capable of and that maybe its time for a change.

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02-12-2007, 02:40 PM
  #43
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True....Spezza has Heatley and Alfie, that makes perfect sense why Spezza can put up great point totals and Briere has Afinogenov and I'm not sure who else is on that line, and Savard has Murray and Sturm.
But are Higgins and Ryder really that much worse than Murray, Sturm and say Afinogenov and Vanek or whoever or are their centermen just doing more for them than Koivu is doing for his wingers???

, bang on , who has he made better

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02-12-2007, 02:44 PM
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I don't know if it's just Savard is doing more for Murray/Sturm or if it's just they have a better chemistry together.
Well my roommates are both Bruins fans so I watch the Bruins from time to time and all I know is that you really notice Savard on the ice. When he has the puck he is making great passes and creating a lot of scoring chances for his wingers, they just have to get near the net and stay open and he finds them. I don't notice Koivu being able to control the play like that, but maybe it is just a chemisty thing....I don't know. But if it is then I hope Carbo puts 2 good wingers with Koivu and leaves them for a good month to let them gel.

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02-12-2007, 02:46 PM
  #45
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HAHAHA....Well I'm not on here to make enemies....I just want to know what the heck is wrong with our Habs and how can we fix it, no matter who we may have to ship out. You have made some interesting points and I commend you on them!!

And in no way am I trying to say trade Koivu!!!!!! I do like the little bugger, but sometimes I just think that we are making him out to be a better player then he is capable of and that maybe its time for a change.
I have to admit, I am a little defensive when it comes to Koivu, after all he's gone through. Sometimes I wish we all had secret access to the Habs dressing room so that we could see what was actually going on instead of speculating.

I have to commend you on some of your interesting posts as well, if you could have seen my face, I was laughing the majority of the time.

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02-12-2007, 02:49 PM
  #46
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Well my roommates are both Bruins fans so I watch the Bruins from time to time and all I know is that you really notice Savard on the ice. When he has the puck he is making great passes and creating a lot of scoring chances for his wingers, they just have to get near the net and stay open and he finds them. I don't notice Koivu being able to control the play like that, but maybe it is just a chemisty thing....I don't know. But if it is then I hope Carbo puts 2 good wingers with Koivu and leaves them for a good month to let them gel.
I have to agree, I really like Savard and I was hoping that Mtl would have been able to step up and get him. But I guess BG wasn't willing to give up that big/long term of a contract.

I hope Carbo sets all his lines soon, and leaves them like that.

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02-12-2007, 02:49 PM
  #47
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who cares if koivu will break 17 other teams top lines, none of those teams are going anywhere.
why not look at the last 10 cup winning teams and they all had elite first line centers playing their role.
the habs will not win a cup with a koivu-plekanec combination up front.
they will have a great chance of a Real C- Koivu combination.
A Koivu - Plekanec 1/2 is what Carbonneau and the fans were given. This team was built with fingers crossed in preparation for next year, no talk of Markov or Souray being re-signed. I don't see a serious long-range plan.

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02-12-2007, 02:51 PM
  #48
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, bang on , who has he made better
For one, he made Higgins better, did you see what happened to Higgins when he went off Koivu's line. He made Perezhogin a better player when he was moved up to the 1st line. Zednik was a better player when he played with Koivu....do you want me to go on??

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02-12-2007, 02:52 PM
  #49
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A Koivu - Plekanec 1/2 is what Carbonneau and the fans were given. This team was built with fingers crossed in preparation for next year, no talk of Markov or Souray being re-signed. I don't see a serious long-range plan.
This team is seriously being built for a run at the 100th. Anything in the meantime would be a bonus to Management.

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02-12-2007, 02:54 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
I have to admit, I am a little defensive when it comes to Koivu, after all he's gone through. Sometimes I wish we all had secret access to the Habs dressing room so that we could see what was actually going on instead of speculating.

I have to commend you on some of your interesting posts as well, if you could have seen my face, I was laughing the majority of the time.
HAHAHA....well I appreciate that! It has been fun hashing out different ideas and possibilities.....your are a very worthy advisary!! lol. I just wish the team could get something figured out so we can start winning again!!

In your opinion, who do you think we could get before the trade deadline that would make a significant improvment to the team, and to play with Koivu??

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