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Rumor Thread 3.0: Gagner fit for a King?

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02-23-2014, 05:47 PM
  #651
Bergeron47
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
I saw that Ellis "rumbling" in another thread. Ugh. Schultz >> Ellis at defence, and that disaster would simply be hilarious to watch. Well, for turned-masochistic Oilers fans.



The numbers and stats show otherwise - i.e. he's elite, and you should pick him up if you have the opportunity, but I'd be seriously cautious in picking up Roman Josi. I'm nervous about players playing with excellent D partners (MAB, anyone?) and I've always been underwhelmed by his game. I didn't think much of it at the Olympics either. Jmho.

Would he be an improvement on our d-corps? Definitely. Is that worth J. Schultz (his potential his higher than Josi's play, imo)/Petry (much maligned player is the only competent D man we have)/the 1st? Absofreakingnot. Especially if you're giving Gagner away (gifting, really, no matter how much you hate him) and not getting a centre back, you're going to need someone to step into that role for the next season, the 1st can get you someone who can.

-----

That's the bigger problem with the Gagner rumour - who's his replacement? Nothing in the pipeline suggests that will be filled (Lander notwithstanding - the organization seems to have loved him and now hates him) and the crop of FAs are very slim to none in the #2C department. Unless you want to severely overpay Stastny or Grabo, bring in an aging borderline #2C like Jokenin/Roy, promote Arco/Lander to a role their NHL data suggests will probably tax them and thus the team, or do something radical (Hall to centre, verison 2), you better be getting a centre back with the Gagner trade.

I've trusted MacT so far. I doubt he'd make a stupid decision. I'll refrain from making a proposal, this isn't really the thread, but I'd rather target Anaheim.

EDIT: realizing Petry hasn't been signed, if they offer you Josi for Gagner and Petry, I guess I'd take it.
Petrys an RFA coming off a regressed year. I wouldn't use his contract status as a reason to trade him.

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02-23-2014, 06:35 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
I saw that Ellis "rumbling" in another thread. Ugh. Schultz >> Ellis at defence, and that disaster would simply be hilarious to watch. Well, for turned-masochistic Oilers fans.



The numbers and stats show otherwise - i.e. he's elite, and you should pick him up if you have the opportunity, but I'd be seriously cautious in picking up Roman Josi. I'm nervous about players playing with excellent D partners (MAB, anyone?) and I've always been underwhelmed by his game. I didn't think much of it at the Olympics either. Jmho.

Would he be an improvement on our d-corps? Definitely. Is that worth J. Schultz (his potential his higher than Josi's play, imo)/Petry (much maligned player is the only competent D man we have)/the 1st? Absofreakingnot. Especially if you're giving Gagner away (gifting, really, no matter how much you hate him) and not getting a centre back, you're going to need someone to step into that role for the next season, the 1st can get you someone who can.

-----

That's the bigger problem with the Gagner rumour - who's his replacement? Nothing in the pipeline suggests that will be filled (Lander notwithstanding - the organization seems to have loved him and now hates him) and the crop of FAs are very slim to none in the #2C department. Unless you want to severely overpay Stastny or Grabo, bring in an aging borderline #2C like Jokenin/Roy, promote Arco/Lander to a role their NHL data suggests will probably tax them and thus the team, or do something radical (Hall to centre, verison 2), you better be getting a centre back with the Gagner trade.

I've trusted MacT so far. I doubt he'd make a stupid decision. I'll refrain from making a proposal, this isn't really the thread, but I'd rather target Anaheim.

EDIT: realizing Petry hasn't been signed, if they offer you Josi for Gagner and Petry, I guess I'd take it.
It's apparent you watch players. We don't see that much around these boards when it comes to valuing a player. People turn on their NHL game and because 6 bozos in Vancouver put Josi's trade value high in a video game, people thinks he's just going to be a great player. Now, I'm not going to bash him or say he's not going to be a top guy but there's many a question in regards to his play. Look at how horrible Voynov played in the Olympic's not being sheltered like he's been in LA and I think more of him than I do Josi. One thing I try and keep in mind with Josi is Poille locking him up long term. He's a pretty good judge of D and he knows when to cut ties or lock a guy up. Even with that said, I'd be hesitant to send good value for him straight up. Especially when this team needs to hit on pretty much every move they make.

Same thing with Wilson really. On the flip side of Nashville being a breeding ground on the backend, they've really over valued guys up front and Wilson may not be an exception to that. They're giving him every opportunity to succeed and if his name is being thrown out there with a guy like Ellis, that tells me they're not impressed with him as much as they were only last summer. Tells me, there's something not right with him. A team starved for offense who's willing to move him, doesn't look good on the surface. If they want Gagner instead of Wilson, that should say something. Especially if they're only offering Ellis included.

As for Ellis? Nobody should want this guy. At all. I honestly believe the Preds will try to move him for something in the next two weeks and if he's not moved, I would say it's 50/50 if he's even qualified. He's not getting any better and you simply can't just have a pp specialist on the blueline anymore. He'd be a disaster with the Oilers.

I'm all for moving Gagner if it makes the team better. I've been on these boards for years and it's odd when your own fan base undervalues one of their players. People are going to be surprised at the value he actually brings. It's not going to be just a Kyle Clifford coming in return. The Kings better be offering Vey, Pearson or Forbort also.

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02-23-2014, 06:43 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
Knowing our luck, we're getting Colin Wilson.

Colin Wilson is not an upgrade on Gagner in any means, shape, or form, imo. We'll end up having Arco as our 2nd line centre simply because he's better.
Wilson is better defensively than Gagner and has tons of untapped potential that he showed in the shortened season last year. Arcobello is no where near better than Wilson.

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02-23-2014, 06:47 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by HeavyHitter99 View Post
Wilson is better defensively than Gagner and has tons of untapped potential that he showed in the shortened season last year. Arcobello is no where near better than Wilson.
One of the biggest problems with Wilson is his defensive game. It's not really there.

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02-23-2014, 06:47 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Hall2Nuge2Ebs View Post
Laugh all you want but Gagner has negative trade value and Josi is going to be a good top pairing defenseman
Gagner does not have negative value! If we are trading our first for josi then Nashville is adding


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02-23-2014, 06:52 PM
  #656
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One of the biggest problems with Wilson is his defensive game. It's not really there.
I still find him to be a better 2 way player than Gagner though. Do you think Gagner is better defensively?

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02-23-2014, 06:53 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by HeavyHitter99 View Post
I still find him to be a better 2 way player than Gagner though. Do you think Gagner is better defensively?
Eh. Not sure. I think Gagner is a better player though absolutely. Neither are worth much defensively and Gagner has shown much more offense in his career.

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02-23-2014, 07:00 PM
  #658
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Eh. Not sure. I think Gagner is a better player though absolutely. Neither are worth much defensively and Gagner has shown much more offense in his career.
I have a feeling that within 2 years Wilson will be a better player than Gagner offensively. Just my opinion though. If we got Wilson + something else for Gagner I wouldn't be too disappointed. I'm a a fan of both players.


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02-23-2014, 07:10 PM
  #659
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Man do I ever hope that it's Gagner or Hemsky for Clifford +. Clifford would do wonders in rounding out our bottom 6. Clifford, Hendricks and Gazdic in our bottom 6 = a team that can beat you on the scoreboard or in the back alley. Clifford would give us a guy that can take a few shifts with the skilled guys if the opposition is taking liberties. Clifford would give us a guy that could be top 20 in the league in hits for forwards for many years.

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02-23-2014, 07:12 PM
  #660
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Man do I ever hope that it's Gagner or Hemsky for Clifford +. Clifford would do wonders in rounding out our bottom 6. Clifford, Hendricks and Gazdic in our bottom 6 = a team that can beat you on the scoreboard or in the back alley. Clifford would give us a guy that can take a few shifts with the skilled guys if the opposition is taking liberties. Clifford would give us a guy that could be top 20 in the league in hits for forwards for many years.
Clifford reminds me of a less injury prone JF Jacques.

Not that I don't think our team needs that, it's just I hope we don't give up much for him.

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02-23-2014, 07:14 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Man do I ever hope that it's Gagner or Hemsky for Clifford +. Clifford would do wonders in rounding out our bottom 6. Clifford, Hendricks and Gazdic in our bottom 6 = a team that can beat you on the scoreboard or in the back alley. Clifford would give us a guy that can take a few shifts with the skilled guys if the opposition is taking liberties. Clifford would give us a guy that could be top 20 in the league in hits for forwards for many years.
Hemsky for Clifford + muzzin. I'd be very happy with this trade. But is that too much to ask for from LA?

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02-23-2014, 07:17 PM
  #662
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I still find him to be a better 2 way player than Gagner though. Do you think Gagner is better defensively?
In terms of two way play, Gagner is maybe better than Yakupov (the barely not a rookie) in tracking his man and breaking out in the d-zone. Eberle, as much as he is maligned on this board, can play in his own zone, Hall uses his speed to carry the play into the o-zone and spend as little time in the d-zone, RNH is learning the ropes really well, and Perron is a breath of 2-way fresh air. This, btw, is on the worst 2-way top 6 in the Western Conference.

Saying Wilson is better than Gagner at defensive play is truly not a bold statement. Most players are. If Gagner was any better playing defense, we wouldn't trade him. Understanding that, Gagner has Wilson beat black and blue in the offensive zone.

Even then, Gagner has more experience in the league, has played with worse defensive players, has never really played in a system fully healthy, and is a whopping 2-3 months older than Wilson.

Getting super defensive players from structured systems like Nashville and Phoenix (Hendricks at least somewhat so, Boyd Gordon) have worked out for us. But Wilson isn't even good at that. He's a severe downgrade in the offensive zone, he's a marginal (at best, a mediocre) upgrade in the defensive zone, and, from my viewing, might actually play smaller than Gagner. He misses the checklist on size, skill and grit, which is what we're looking for, right?

Between the three of them:
Wilson: Soft, weak, unskilled, medium sized, try issues (from viewing, not sourced), somewhat competent in the defensive zone
Gagner: Grit(tier), weak, skilled, small sized, hard-working (I'm bullish on him), not competent in the defensive zone
Arcobello: Gritty, strong, semi-skilled, comically small, hard-working, somewhat competent in the defensive zone

The best #2C for us in the long term is probably none of the above.

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02-23-2014, 07:25 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Clifford reminds me of a less injury prone JF Jacques.

Not that I don't think our team needs that, it's just I hope we don't give up much for him.
Clifford sucks. really, He is a good bottom 6 guy. However I really hope we don't get him. IF we move Gagner I want something more substantial in return.

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02-23-2014, 07:29 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
In terms of two way play, Gagner is maybe better than Yakupov (the barely not a rookie) in tracking his man and breaking out in the d-zone. Eberle, as much as he is maligned on this board, can play in his own zone, Hall uses his speed to carry the play into the o-zone and spend as little time in the d-zone, RNH is learning the ropes really well, and Perron is a breath of 2-way fresh air. This, btw, is on the worst 2-way top 6 in the Western Conference.

Saying Wilson is better than Gagner at defensive play is truly not a bold statement. Most players are. If Gagner was any better playing defense, we wouldn't trade him. Understanding that, Gagner has Wilson beat black and blue in the offensive zone.

Even then, Gagner has more experience in the league, has played with worse defensive players, has never really played in a system fully healthy, and is a whopping 2-3 months older than Wilson.

Getting super defensive players from structured systems like Nashville and Phoenix (Hendricks at least somewhat so, Boyd Gordon) have worked out for us. But Wilson isn't even good at that. He's a severe downgrade in the offensive zone, he's a marginal (at best, a mediocre) upgrade in the defensive zone, and, from my viewing, might actually play smaller than Gagner. He misses the checklist on size, skill and grit, which is what we're looking for, right?

Between the three of them:
Wilson: Soft, weak, unskilled, medium sized, try issues (from viewing, not sourced), somewhat competent in the defensive zone
Gagner: Grit(tier), weak, skilled, small sized, hard-working (I'm bullish on him), not competent in the defensive zone
Arcobello: Gritty, strong, semi-skilled, comically small, hard-working, somewhat competent in the defensive zone

The best #2C for us in the long term is probably none of the above.
Very solid post thank you!

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02-23-2014, 07:31 PM
  #665
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Clifford sucks. really, He is a good bottom 6 guy. However I really hope we don't get him. IF we move Gagner I want something more substantial in return.
Clifford doesn't suck but they would definitely have to add something decent to him to get Gagner.

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02-23-2014, 07:33 PM
  #666
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Clifford is the last guy from LA's bottom 6 I'd want. Nolan or King would fill a hole way better.

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02-23-2014, 07:33 PM
  #667
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Clifford sucks. really, He is a good bottom 6 guy. However I really hope we don't get him. IF we move Gagner I want something more substantial in return.
It is so frustrating to hear this rumour - people unabashedly hate Gagner (which is fair, he's not right for this team) and somehow equate that to Gagner being equal to a 3rd/4th line grinder.

Dubnyk, on his worst year, on his contract year, an impending UFA, in all means a worse player worth less than Gagner, going to a team with an established starter that has no reason to resign him, got nearly the same quality and ilk of player in Matt Hendricks.

I'm not expecting Eric Lindros for Foppa and more here, but come on!

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02-23-2014, 07:39 PM
  #668
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What do you guys think about something revolved around Gagner for Dustin Brown? Before this year it would have been undisputed that brown is the far superior player but based on last years playoffs and this season, Brown looks like a shadow of his former self offensively. I don't know if it's just a bad season (and playoff) or if he's on the down slope.

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02-23-2014, 07:43 PM
  #669
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I wouldn't mind Clifford on the Oilers at all, I just think it's piss poor asset management to deal Gagner for him. Why are we not waiting until the off-season to try and package Gagner with something else for something that will net a bigger improvement?

Gagner + one of our D prospects or 1st for a legitimate #2C/top pairing defenseman > Gagner for a bottom 6'er. We have enough depth in the system on defense that we should be looking at moving one of the top prospects IMO.

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02-23-2014, 07:44 PM
  #670
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It is so frustrating to hear this rumour - people unabashedly hate Gagner (which is fair, he's not right for this team) and somehow equate that to Gagner being equal to a 3rd/4th line grinder.

Dubnyk, on his worst year, on his contract year, an impending UFA, in all means a worse player worth less than Gagner, going to a team with an established starter that has no reason to resign him, got nearly the same quality and ilk of player in Matt Hendricks.

I'm not expecting Eric Lindros for Foppa and more here, but come on!
Ya, well said. for the record I shouldn't say he sucks, but the idea that people hate Gagner so much they are happy to get some one who is not much better than guys that can be claimed of waivers is pretty insane.

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02-23-2014, 07:55 PM
  #671
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Montreal just recalled Jared Tinordi.

Something to keep our eyes on with Stauffer naming the Habs as a potential suitor for Hemsky.

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02-23-2014, 08:03 PM
  #672
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Montreal just recalled Jared Tinordi.

Something to keep our eyes on with Stauffer naming the Habs as a potential suitor for Hemsky.
I'd be happy with that. Maybe Montreal adds a bit

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02-23-2014, 08:10 PM
  #673
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Montreal just recalled Jared Tinordi.

Something to keep our eyes on with Stauffer naming the Habs as a potential suitor for Hemsky.
Gladly take that return.

I was hoping for someone like Brendan Smith (DET) for Hemsky, but I think Tinordi mean streak suits the Oiler blueline better.

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02-23-2014, 08:17 PM
  #674
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Clifford reminds me of a less injury prone JF Jacques.

Not that I don't think our team needs that, it's just I hope we don't give up much for him.
Clifford is a better player than JFJ was, IMO if we dealt Gagner form Clifford + we'd also be getting additional cap space as an asset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
Clifford is the last guy from LA's bottom 6 I'd want. Nolan or King would fill a hole way better.
Clifford out hits both guys by a wide margin and he's tougher than King and comparable to Nolan in terms of toughness. He is also a couple of developmental years younger than those guys.

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02-23-2014, 08:19 PM
  #675
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I'd be stoked for Tinordi. He's exactly what our defense needs.

But if they were planning on trading him, would they need to recall him for that?
I assume he was called up because a different d-man will be dealt,

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